Sounds like it would be a good idea to me, Andy! M.

Definitely the first one. If you go the nomination and voting route you are asking for trouble, IMO. People will start voting tactically and I bet there will be multiple accounts opened so people can vote more than once for a certain person.

I know the Captain doesn't need to be told who to choose and that's not what I am doing. But I know that in general people like Marilyn P, Rebeccajo, TracyTN, William33, Meauxna, and Jenn are IMMENSELY liked and respected on VJ. They don't get into petty squabbles, have a balanced POV, don't take offence easily and are fair and intelligent. You need people like that on a moderating team.

I am all about coming up with a way to get more moderating done here. Should we start a 'moderating discussion' thread and veer off topic as much as possible? JOKE. But maybe the new thread for it is a good idea.

And thanks for the vote of confidence, mags. I have moderated at boards before - the last time being in a politics forum (you can imagine how dicey that'd get! My tack was only to get involved if I felt I had to (or if a thread was pointed out to me).

Some of the names mags mentioned came to mind for me as well: rebeccajo, meauxna, Jenn, Marilyn, William. I also thought of lal_brandow.

jenn,

I was thinking the same.

Yodrak

It may not be a good idea to put names forward at this point so much as focus purely on the need for better moderation, the parameters of moderating work, and the method and circumstances of selection. If, for example, it is felt that Captain Ewok ought to be the arbiter of choice in selection, it's unjust to push names forward here that could influence choice to the possible detriment of others who are busy in other areas and not mentioned here.

Personally, I'd like to see an agreement on there being member-based moderators appointed and have their roles clarified before there was any suggestion as to who might be best suited. Different roles may warrant consideration of different people after all.

Captain Ewok,

Make it a regular forum, and make it for any stage of the VJ process - anything that just says "I got it", no matter what 'it' is, to which all responses are likely to be "Congratulations".

Yodrak

Where would such a forum b e placed? I am certainly open to this if it makes sense and does not create a forum that is cluttered with unrelated information.

Which is why I suggested that we perhaps start a thread in which to have the discussion.

Sure thing. If am pretty pressed for time at the moment so if you want to start it I will chime in later. Mention the new forum and make sure to clearly define how the new idea mike augment or replace that purpose. Conversation is always good!

Done!

I'm in favour of method #1. Let C. Ewok decide.

Sorry, I guess I completely misunderstood what you were asking me to do.

I didn't realize all that we were going to discuss now for moderation is 'tools'. I guess I'm just confused.

Please see this post regarding member moderation. http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...st&p=808106 At this point I do not think it is possible. I am however (as you can see from yesterday) very willing to make changes both big and small to help out based on your comments.



No worries. I thought you were going to start a topic discussing a global congrats and progress thread.

Ok - just got our wires crossed. Sorry.

Captain, last year you appeared amenable to member-moderation, for all the reasons that were discussed at the time, and which had been raised as significantly important to the continued functioning of the site as a viable resource. Now you are not, and yet VJ has deteriorated in many ways in that time.

I find it little short of incredible that you do not seem prepared to give any thought to the issues of moderation quality and purpose that we have raised here, other than to promise 'tools' of an uncertain nature that have about as much probability of assisting in these concerns as a newbie K-1 in the legal niceties of a 221g filing.

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised, but "I am not considering member moderators. The moderation will continue to be run but non participating parties that act solely based on the Terms of Service" not only falls well short of what is clearly needed in the discussion areas, but is a rather disappointing attitude in the face of members asking for it to be otherwise.

There are other issues at hand other than that. I would rather not list them all but suffice it to say that I still think that if we work as a team and with the proper tools the site can see some benefits.

Captain Ewok is doing a bang up job around here

Capt performed a minor miracle on the MENA board the last time he put his foot down over there. That was his most problematic board, and now it's pretty calm and peaceful. Perhaps the lack of problems there have emphasized the problems elsewhere, but even I (who has a bullseye on my back) don't see any drastic problems with posters run amuck. If there are some, please enlighten me so I can be on the same page as those with more concerns.

So I would like to possible identify the issues that are troublesome to members. Is it trolls, member attitudes, etc. Certain things are easier to address than others. Can we narrow it down?

For trolls I have a tool I can roll out that if a member is here less than 30 days and his posts are reported more than X times in 24 hours than his account is automatically suspended pending review. This is a way that members can flag obvious trolls and has the fail safe that within 12-24 hours I will review it and unlock the account if needed.

If a member is an obvious troll, of which there have been a few, can you not ban that IP number?

for me, it's a general lack of respect & the entitlement attitude. No one wants to read guides & are insulted if they are pointed to *gasp* a link.

Maybe the respect thing is because there aren't obvious mods around. I know when you come around Cap'n, people tend to straighten up.

The trolls are here but not so bad. The people who do congrats posts on every thread, just to increase post count are very annoying. I never noticed that when I joined last year.

Yes. I frequently do that.

Working as a team at the very least implies a degree of equity and cooperation, not to mention information exchange, rather than imposition of a decision by one in the face of commentary by others.

As I see it, there are plenty of members in the discussion areas who need better support and tools that help keep issues under control and content and climate conducive to the working of the site. That they don't get this, that the guides and FAQ are falling out of date and that more and more content is being posted that has greater potential to the detriment of readers than before is indicative of what we have been saying here.

We know what we want VJ to be - a community of members involved it US immigration issues in whatever form, who use this place as somewhere to visit as often as they need and get help, have questions answered, provide information, yell success from the rooftop, get commiseration and support on failure, to just gather and encourage, or be encouraged, the let off steam, to find the key.

The actual truth is, I think, that in every respect to some degree it is failing. It's not so much a community any more because so many people tend to be pulling in too many different directions. We've become a club for some where they can gather with a few 'friends' and mutter and moan or contribute often unhelpful content to other people's threads. We've got some who have just entered the process but already give advice (some very bad). We have others who decry anything that isn't there own contribution. Others who bully members with sharp retorts and personal invective. It's increasingly difficult to get help here since many are very sharp with the 'read the guides' replies that while perhaps correct in an ideal world, don't take into account the fact that the guides are not heavily maintained. Or who's question is answered by someone with no real knowledge but who wants to assert themselves as right. By post-hoares who run up their post count with 'hello', 'congratulation', 'me too' type answers and thus when they contribute remarks of any kind, are taken by newbie or those unfamiliar with them as being somehow authoritative. We have threads that are hijacked by personal discussions where the OP never gets another look in, or where the answers degenerate into debate about something related but not responsive to the OP. We have complex cases (and in truth even the simplest immigration case has considerable complexity and nuance) which are handled as if the issues were black and white and simple. We have posters who are in trouble and derided, contributors who know what they are talking about being mocked, belittled and contradicted by those who don't. There are members who come here with difficulties and who face personal attack and vilification, or are dealt with abruptly or with a prickly and unfriendly attitude. We have replies like 'it's your own fault' and 'get over it'.

What we have is an unruly society of people, doing their own thing, saying what they want, when they want, where they want and without a great deal of regard for much but their own freedom of expression. The atmosphere in many areas is not supportive, but combative.

If that's the VJ you want, then shame. If it's not, then you might want to enlighten 'the team' with an explanation as to your plans to resolve some or all of the above?

I don't think it is necessarily because people don't want to read the guides, but most people would rather hear from personal experience...

also I have noticed that some people are sometimes I bit snippy or maybe it comes off that way when they point out a link a person should read....

Yes, that is very annoying.



Agreed.

I thought that giving suggestions about things that need to be moderated is exactly what we were doing in the other thread.

I guess I will reiterate my points here.

I think one of the roles of the moderator should be to change topic titles if necessary to something that makes it clear what information will be found within the topic. It will help tremendously with searches and just overall clarity.

Also, I would like to see a lot more locking of threads with redirection to already existing threads. I suppose people will have varying opinions on this, but all other boards that I've been a part of have a pretty strict rule about opening up a new thread to address the same topic. I think this will also contribute to searchability.

i have been here awhile and I thought this group was formed to offer support and encouragement to people who are all going through the same thing....

None of us are experts on all this stuff, we have just learned stuff through personal experience and most of us just want to pass the knowledge along to others...

The guides are great but they shouldn't be taken any more as fact then what people post on VJ... because are they not created by people who have gone through this journey and not by experts...??....

Yeah there is squabbling but Captain Ewok does a great job in clearing it up as quickly as possible.... But if there is a problem people need to report it and not expect Ewok to see it eventually....

I really don't see any more squabbling then there has been in the past....

And post whoring as been here since I first joined so it is nothing new either..... but who are we to decide if it is really post whoring or not......

I have more thoughts but they seem to have escaped me right now.... will post later if I can remember

Do you think that having member moderators will fix all that? I really do want to help but this will take time (and honestly I spend a great deal trying to do my best). Regarding the Guides and FAQ's, I am always ready to update them on the spot when people give feedback. I would be more than glad to kick off a round of house keeping and improve them in general. To do so there would need to be volunteers and the will for people to help. I think that promoting events such as this on the site may indeed help spawn the sense of community that we are discussing here. Thoughts?

This is an important point because I honestly will not see things if they are not reported. If it take 50 reported posts a day then that is ok with me (although I hope it is not 50). I would be more than happy to look into anything people may be concerned with but I can not read the minds of all the members and rely on reported threads to get my eyes on things that may need attention.

As a note, I get about 3-4 reported threads a day (which is very low) most days (barring something crazy). If things are this bad then I am guessing they are being under reported and I would welcome the additional feedback by sending me more reported threads. It is the only way I can spot trouble members and other issues.

I really think that if people think that there is not enough moderation then at least partially it may be because I am not seeing the issues that people would like more moderation on. If it is a TOS violation then let me know.

Which is EXACTLY what VJ says it is. The guides are valuable BECAUSE the people who contribute have been through it.

On the home page:

Our goal is to educate and provide general information regarding family and marriage based immigration (K1, K3, DCF, etc) for a spouse, fiance, parent(s) or other close relatives to reunite and bring together families. If you are new to the site please take a look at some of our site's great features such as the Guides, FAQ's, Forums, Gallery, Example Forms and more. We provide you with a great array of general information useful in filing your I-129f, I-130, I-134, I-485 and other USCIS and immigration forms. We encourage all members to seek a qualified immigration attorney as this site is no substitute for the valuable help and advice a good attorney can provide! Please also be familiar with the Terms of Service before using this site.

Once again, we welcome you and encourage you to become a member of our growing community! Share your experiences and relax here knowing you are not alone! Make sure that you also take the time to add your information to our Immigration Timeline section! -The Visajourney Family

THAT is one of the primary reasons for having a moderating team comprising members who are invested in the outcome.

I guess from my perspective I would just like the chance to demonstrate that if I get more than 3-4 reported posts a day I can probably easily handle some of the issues raised in this thread. There are several members that PM me regularly on issues and nine times out of ten I agree and quickly act on them. Everyone should not be afraid to report things.

An example is the MENA forum where I specifically told them to let me know when things were bad. I made a serious point to emphasize the TOS and it was a benefit to everyone. I do not think anyone took it personally and in the end things were much better for the community.

but why do we need moderators for that.... if people are having problems they should just report it......

a lot of people are trying to say that VJ has gotten worse and worse but it really hasn't.... I have been here for almost 3 years already and I have seen my fair share of arguments and squabbles over those 3 years..... but they never really last long .....

Do you think that adding a note to the new members guide indicating that it is "ok" to report threads (and in fact very important) will help? I can also post a notice site wide to remind people.

sorry - i think MENA forum is a bad example, but thats another thread.

that might help

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but at the present time I think the biggest issues are with organization, not member behavior.

(at this time anyway)

To address that question specifically, yes. The right moderators, chosen along the lines as suggested a page or two back in this thread, are capable of adjusting and modifying behavior patterns of posters, content and attitude very quickly. They can do that because unlike you, they are actively involved. There are potential pitfalls, which is why the choice needs to be carefully made and then those selected given the opportunity to demonstrate their skills for a relatively short period to make sure they understand the role and can perform it, but the right handful of members can do a great deal to restore the community and cohesion that VJ was famed for, but has not been for a while now.

What I don't get, with all due respect, is your objection to this. I've proposed (as I did last year) that you pick the people to do this job, and by and large you would define the boundary of their responsibilities. We've already told you in this thread why we think it's a good thing, and after untangling moderating issues from the K-1/NOA issue Tracy started with and which is now resolved (with thanks), the question of member-moderation seems the most logical place to start on the whole slew of issues about content and direction.

The problem is that your view seems tied to specific TOS violations and clearly identifiable violators, but the problems are by and large far more subtle than that, with the implication that far more hands-on solutions are needed for things to be resolved comfortably without risking the site falling into organisational and functional disrepair. The very people who really need to be feeding into the Guides and FAQ are the ones who are being discouraged by what's going on and who become less likely to do so. Bad, and I mean BAD advice gets handed out to people by members who simply don't know or don't mind offering 'advice' that is actually encouraging others to break the law - is that against the TOS? By the time you get to do anything, is it fast enough to prevent a member mistaking it for good advice?!

Doesn't it seem reasonable to suppose, that over time, if VJ slips a bit and then a bit more, the seasoned regulars upon whom it relies will drift away because here they get shouted down or drowned out, or derided for wanting to do things 'the right way'?! Wouldn't it be wise to figure out a plan about how to stop that happening, before it does? Don't you think that of those of us who have raised this collection of issues, there is a sufficient degree of experience with active participation in the site that we might actually know what we're talking about?

The thing is that even amongst us, there's wide disparity of view about the solution to all of these things, but the one thing we seem to agree on is that better moderation is needed - which is not a reflection of your own skills or responsibilities here, just that as participants we see it differently, and we see a downward trend that needs halting, that as the moderator you couldn't hope to see.

Anyway - that's my view and I'll shut up. Status as the 6th ever VJ member doesn't entitle me to be any more right than anyone else!

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

I don't think "seasoned members" leave because of VJ slipping.... Do we expect people to comtine with VJ for the rest of thier lives?? People have always come and go ever since I have been here..... It is not like their there has been one major exodus of members....

There always seems to be new people to fill the shoes of the ones that left....

And let's not forget that the majority of people here CAN stand up for themselves here. We are not children...




Being honest here, your large pink "Congratulations" can be a little irritating...seeing as you mentioned it.

I stay away from threads that will raise a dispute. Like the other time with the thread about a man who was being abused by his wife. I knew something like that could raise issues, so I stopped posting.

I said I'd shut up, but you raise a point related to something I said that deserves comment.

VJ was ALWAYS intended to be a place where people could, should and were encouraged to post when good things happened, and where others could, should and would post congratulatory messages. It was a critical part of the need of the community then, and personally I think it is now just the same. There's nothing wrong with posting either type of message, and we should all welcome every scrap of success our members enjoy.

But post count is misleading - can be very misleading to those who don't know how it came about. To a newbie, 1,000 'great news, well done' posts is just the same, or more likely indeed to have been, 1,000 'this is how you do it' contributions. Yet it can't be turned off because otherwise there are no indicators of 'trust' of any kind for posters to go off other than how long anyone has been here - and that's not a safe indicator either!

I saw you get bashed in another thread earlier for your post count and way it was achieved, and the sad fact is that even if the poster was right in that criticism, it's still a sad reminder of how things have gone a little wrong here. Your 'congratulations' posts are every bit as much a part of the community here as my 'how immigration law works' posts (obliquely referring to that thread!) and they should be treated as such. To me, a 'post whore' is someone who posts fast and furious to build up the count just to seem important, and worse, who then uses that apparent status to try and assert views that supplant the wisdom of those who really do know. Post whores are the only ones who really know who they are, and while I used the term generically, it's inappropriate in my view for it to be used as a term to be bandied between users. That's something that while not perhaps a violation of the TOS, I would like to see stamped out.

There's no way in resetting counts? I don't give advice where I have no idea what's going on. I just came here to find out people's timelines. Well, if my congratulatory is a nusuance to seasoned members, I just will not post anymore. I thought that those who's receiving those messages are happy. But, they're not I guess.

This is not a business, or any benefit to me for posting so much congratulatory. I guess nobody realizes that.

You are not on trial here, Consolemaster. I personally have never seen you post anything condescending , but I have seen that done by a few of the so -called 'seasoned ' members who are praised for their fairness .
And let's just leave it at that.

I have nothing against anyone posting congratulatory messages. I do it myself...but I do tend to stick with people I have followed during their process or people I know. The main issue I have is the constant copying and pasting of the same message in what appears to be every single thread about NOA1, a touch, NOA2, interviews, another touch and so on. To post the same message over and over seems to me to actually be counter productive and actually quite irritating. It can also come across as lazy, just my opinion.

Good Grief... I saw that thread and some of the 'participants' who were laughing and high-5ing about a successful "scolding" are some of the same folks who are active in this thread...

I think you need to read what I said again, and not presume it was an attack!