*finds wall to bang head against*

AGAIN - CSCers are not mad or annoyed AT VSCers. Its situational - its not their fault that they fly by while we languish. Being 'mad' at the people who get to file through VSC is stupid.

It is frustrating and upsetting for CSCers to see their 'oh no' posts after 2 weeks have passed, but as has been said ad nauseum, that is just a symptom of their situation and their frame of reference.

I'm not sure how to make that point any more clear, but obviously I'm failing somehow.

As for the forum ideas: maybe "Visa Journey milestones" ? Hopefully by moving the 'where is my NOA2!!!???' threads to that forum, people would understand that it can be used for celebrations AND frustrations.

Tracy....

The only thing I was trying to say (perhaps not very well) is that with all the EMPHASIS on timelines and 'who is processing where', newer members get to thinking these things are what drives the community. Hence they continue to stress about the stuff, and perhaps get upset - perhaps with people and processes.

'Monthly filer' threads are a newer phenomenon. I don't know who started the idea, but they never used to be part of any forum.

Ok - that makes sense. Maybe I was reading wrong. I am sleep deprived.

And yes, I do fear that is what lurkers or noobs will think 'drives' the community. I hope we can decide on this forum name soon and get it going.

Just as another idea, how about renaming the existing K-1 forum from 'K-1 Fiance(e) Visa General Discussion' to K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Questions and Help' and then adding a new one underneath called 'K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports'

^^ I like it!!!!!!!!

Reading/following this thread is like watching our Congress on CSPAN.

A lesson on how a very simple idea (which by the way, people have already begun doing on their own) has turned into Grandstanding, Filibustering (talking w/out listening), Over-Sight Committees, Lobbyists, Study-Groups, Opinion Polls, Pork Belly Ad-Ons, and Historical Reminiscence.. it's no wonder nothing gets done in government...


~Rant

And poor Capt.Ewok..stuck in the middle...

amen

Yeah, I tend to be dramatic. It's for effect.


I think you're understating that one.


Yeah, I get that part and I agree that it gets in the way of real questions and information. I just don't want that part of VJ that allows us to pour out our anxiety and excitement to go away or fade away because no one knows where to do it. Even now as I see announcements from other posters, I hesitate to congratulate them on getting approved. And I don't feel I should (hesitate) because it's a step they've achieved, gotten past and there are plenty more steps before it's over. Every little bit of encouragement helps.


From what I have seen in the one I started, we just keep each other updated on our progress. Other questions get posted in the main forum or in other appropriate forums. Once we have received approvals, we would be split up in the regional forums. This thread is a way for us to continue to know what's happening with each other.

It's the same consequence as trying to design by committee, but to trivialize the contributions and ideas of those who have concerns at the way the forum works and that it is best able to meet it's objectives is not all that helpful in itself!

Yes, that sounds good.


I'm trying to figure out which committee I've fallen under.

I agree, although the levity itself can be refreshing!

I'd rather have a discussion about something like this among the members it will effect instead of an administrator who just does what he/she wants to do without seeing what everyone wants.

And jvlr: I guess don't see how having a 'new place' for the pouring out of excitement or anxiety totally removes that as a feature of VJ.

I just spent most of my morning reading this whole thread. I have to say it was full of emotion and made me feel a range of guilty about being a VSC filers, angry that all of the VSC filers get lumped in together as whiners or somehow expecting better service, and then relieved that the thread ended up coming up with a reasonable solution as it appeared as most people got to air their feelings and be acknowledged.
One comment I wanted to add is the responsibility of maintaining tone. I know that when I joined in February I had an important question that I needed answered before I filed the next day (I stumbled on the VJ site while trying to research the answer on my own). I was very glad I was able to ask the question (it was not something included in the guides) and got some great insight from Rayma who had gone through a similar situation. I was immediatly thrilled about the helpfulness and huge resource I had just found. But being new, I did as the Romans did. It appeared to me that the culture here had month by month postings (there were ones for previous months when I had signed on) and it seemed like we all shared our small successess and frustrations with appropriate congrats or support from the community. I know even as my process has come along I am not so enamored with publicising every small detail of my journey. But for the first leg of it...I wanted to scream it from the mountain tops.
I am not worried that newbiews will conform to whatever the 'culture' is, if they are shown. We just need to be good models and help people understand how things can be done to accomodate everyone. I think it is a great suggestion to add the milestones/chit chat string as that will be a step i the right direction.
I have more to say about this whole VSCer/ non-VSCer debate but I don't find it will be of any use to share it. I hope there truly isn't hard feelings because it is very hard trying to navigate the line between excitement over our own process and how to be sensitive to others who are having a very different experience.
I hope things settle down and that VJ can continue to an incredible resource to us all. I don't know what I would have done without the hours of late night reading I have done on this site.
My two cents (I think we should start actually collecting these two cents and do something like end world hunger...lol)
Sue

Just to put my 2 cents in...

I may be too much of a "newb", but I don't think that the monthly filer threads are completely bad (although it does get a bit ridiculous if you start dividing it between early in the month and late in the month). I've met some great people from the december filers thread. It makes you feel part of a team (an even tighter team than the whole VJ group which is great too of course). But I do agree that these monthly filer threads could be moved to some other place on the forum, so that the real questions on the K1 forum can get the attention they deserve.


Karoline

Only have a moment to reply but I can say that I don't have 'hard feelings' towards anyone here, particularly VSC filers. I've tried and tried and tried in this thread to explain the feeling that CSCers have about watching the VSCers whiz by, but that's getting me nowhere. I am clearly not explaining it in a way that is easy to understand. But I wish like the devil that it could be understood - but perhaps only CSCers who have waited recently, in this 'month by month' culture - can understand.

I also think that you said something very important - that as a noob, you felt the culture here WAS the month to month thing. That is SO not what I experienced as a noob, and I feel it does this site a disservice to be seen in that way.

Yeah, I know. Probably overstating again for dramatic effect. I guess as long as it's clearly marked, people can find their way there.

Oh, and by the way, I get what you're saying about how CSC filers feel about VSC filers, which is not at all resentful, just sad, impatient, frustrated and a little envious without malice.

This Just In....Breaking News From The K1 Discussion Forum....

VSC Separatist have started a new thread...

K1 Fiance General Discussion>VSC Late March Filers.....

Emergency Council Meeting called... Should It Be Moved?....Is This Allowed?...Under Who's Authority? Will Early VSC March Filers be left out?.....Protestors Gathering.... Civil Disobedience Reported....

It is wrong, IMO. Late march filers, come on!!!

Contrary to what you might think, we ARE having an intelligent discussion here, and we have read your bolded/caps posts, it is too hard to miss them. SHEESH.



Andy-
I think Visa Case Filing & Progress Reports is a great name but it doesn't imply anything about touching/NOA1/NOA2 posts. I'm thinking on it...

Uh, yeah, that late March thread has been there for a few days now.

Well, no idea is perfect. I am a committee after all!

But I think that sort of name makes sense and does imply any activity - or could be named in such a way as it includes any such activity.

Of course, let's not forget that there's a descriptive line under the title that would allow for an explanation of the purpose. Not everyone will read that, but most do.

I think many people, seeing the original title change to 'Questions and Help' will have a good grasp of the purpose of 'Case Filing & Progress Reports', and new posters who weren't used to the old scheme will be easily guided there if they don't work it out for themselves.

I think the name doesn't have to imply everything that will be moved in there. Surely after people see touch threads getting moved there, they will 'get wise' to where they should be starting those threads.

Karin und Otto: I love a good joke as much as the next person, but I feel that we really am trying to accomplish something for the site in this thread. If you think its a dumb idea, please give us your opinion (preferably in a way that doesn't make us wonder whether or not you're being serious). Thanks!

Agreed. People model what they see--that's how all these trends get going--right down to the timeline in the siggy business.

What I haven't seen answered is: What does any of this do to encourage people to actually be researching their own information or be reading ahead on their own process? I'm constantly surprised by the busy posters who turn up in the AOS forums (and others later down the road) asking 'eek, what now?! I haven't studied a thing and I need to mail this AOS next week!'. It is so much easier for people to simply ask the question and have the forum repeat repeat repeat that valuable information from past threads gets discarded. Gentle attempts to get people to read more get slammed like devilette has experienced (unfairly) this week--attempts like Ewok's 'Please consider reading the Guides..' message is clearly ignored.

Members also don't feel a contributory responsibility--that is what I miss about the olden days. Interview and experience posts are few and far between, the FAQ is falling into a shambles alongside the Guides and there is an uproar when someone's Consular post isn't listed in the reviews---because no one else before has bothered to add it to the site. IMO, members depend too much on the VJ gods to just deliver all the info (and are snippy if something is out of date!) instead of helping keep this dynamic information current.
Ewok is one creature. Site design & implementation, administration, moderate all the minutia of some very silly threads AND be an expert on all angles of immigration to keep the guides etc up to date? sheesh.

There are a lot of people who do contribute to keeping things up--I in no way mean to demean their contributions. But all of the 'new inventions' that members create on their own (timieline threads etc) seems like energy that could be channeled into activities that benefit the whole instead of a handful.

Hmmm....If everyone read the guide, there's no sense of having a forum. Is there?

Very strange indeed that this topic is even talked about.

Are you serious?

I could not agree more... This board is a transient place and members come and go. New members must be willing to self-educate themselves and be willing step in and take the place of the existing knowledgebase when they decide to move on. How many people here have the patience of a YuandDan to answer the same question 10 times a day... Certainly not me... I think as Matt85 said the other day that these people need to not be spoonfed but to be taught how to fish.....

Seriously - where does this thread end? (once YOU'RE done with K1, what's next? AOS? The Embassy Forum?)

The question at the beginning was simple: "[Pin] We were thinking of K1 subforums - one for VSC filers and one for CSC (TSC/NSC) filers"...and it's gone far into the dark hole being 'intelligently' discussed here. A lesson on how a good idea gets washed down the drain when people attempt to prove how 'intelligent or mature' they are...

My response was ridiculous - to show the ridiculousness of the constant wavering discussion. You started the thread - with a simple point and where is that point now? Sub-Sub-dividing threads...? sub-sub-sub-dividing... Over analyzing the entire Forum.. That my friend is ridiculous.

BTW-who are you to suggest to anyone how to respond?

That's not true, there is a lot of stuff in the guides that is confusing. Reading threads sometimes adds to the confusion. It can be difficult to tell from the guides what will be different in your specific case, at which embassy, etc. I don't think that people asking questions in forums can be put down to just not reading the guides. They seem straightforward, but they sometimes aren't.

There was a mention in the first couple of pages about transferring and I did not know what stage of the process it was referring to. I did a search and came up with a thread that was all about transferring but it took a long time to figure out what that meant and why, not to mention why it might be beneficial.

As far as interviewing and things further along the process, I have seen discussion on that take place in the regional thread that I read. But I guess it's the kind of thing that should also be posted in the forum for whatever stage of the process it falls under.

Sure, if people think there might be room for improvement in those, why not? Half the point here is trying to make the K1 forum somewhere that people might come back to contribute to, and offer advice in, once they are 'done with K1', isn't it?

There are two issues to consider from this I think:

The first is human nature. People really don't read before asking and by and large they never have. VJ, like every other immigration resource, and other such places I frequent, have always been awash with questions that a bit of reading or some light research would have answered without much trouble. But most users interact with the site along the line of least resistance/easiest personal experience and that is to post first and look around second.... assuming they ever get that far!

We can try all sorts of ways to mitigate this behavior, but in reality it won't work - at least not without risking damaging the service being offered here. Posting replies along the lines of 'read the guides' is understandable, and informative in that if the user hasn't read them or doesn't know they're there, they are being pointed to a resource that has considerable potential benefit to them, but for many it will leave them frustrated at the apparently dismissive responses they get here and they'll go elsewhere. Likewise, if they DO read the guides and can't figure out what they mean or how they relate to the information - and many users simply wouldn't have enough notion to begin to understand without some assistance at least, they'll also go elsewhere.

I can't say I am surprised or disappointed though that you see the same faces pop up later in their own process still asking questions. Researching the whole process at the outset can make the entire process seem far more daunting and complex than it really is, and answer lots of questions they don't have in their own situation. Not only that, but it risks them being out of date on information is the process changes or some new issue comes to light while they are underway.

There was a notion at one point, a long time ago now, to combine the guides and faqs into a series of downloadable files such that when logging in, options to download documents about specific case types, procedures or supporting information would be presented to them rather than leave it to a more passive notice and for people to have to click on things in order to get into the data. It never happened because at the time VJ was much smaller and it seemed less urgent than perhaps now, and because the difficulty in ensuring the information was kept up to date by those who actually knew for sure what they were talking about would have inevitably led to outdated information at times. That would not always be a problem in itself, but there would have been an unacceptable risk of misleading a user and causing potentially serious problems. The same is true of the informational content on the site as it is, except that of course because it's not widely read and users post instead, they don't see it in the guides/faq where it tends to carry more authority than a misleading post in the forum which everyone knows can't reliably be taken as true and good advice.

The second is moderation. Without the sort of active moderation that VJ hasn't had since Steve's day, just about any content is OK and the culture and climate has changed as a result. People often forget that good moderation isn't about curtailing freedom of speech or hacking posts or threads apart, but about ensuring the forum is fit for purpose and that it stays on mission. The lack of it leads to a rather shambolic place that is full of content that tugs the whole venture away from what it is supposed to do by obscuring content that is what the site is supposed to be about.

I remember the cliques of a not-so-long-ago where just about every thread turned into a bouncing round of inane contributions about fruit etc, making it impossible to provide help and assistance and continually preventing useful discussion. The contributors didn't intend to have that effect, but that's the consequence of it. We still see many threads that degenerate with off-topic and completely irrelevant contributions, and ultimately it makes it harder for the knowledgeable to respond coherently and have their replies considered, and it makes it harder for someone with a question to ask get the help and assistance they need.

Active moderation resolves those things and if done well, is barely noticeable in any way except that the posters who need help are more visible, and those who want to help are more able to deliver it.

Oh, and I guess the third of two issues: many members seem to place very little value in VJ as a resource, somewhat taking for granted their right to be here and post what they like without consideration to others or the consequence. Users need to be reminded (again, a moderator can do this) when people step out of line with snippy posts or insulting or divisive comment, just as those who may be able to help keep the guides and faqs together and up to date need to be supported in that effort.

Clearly I can't control the end or 'life' of any thread I start. That, my friend, is out of my control.

In fact, its often a challenge to find ANY thread that stays on its original subject (unless that topic asks a specific question which can be definitively answered).

In this thread, we came to the agreement to add more mods and come up with a forum for the purpose I suggested (as stated by Ewok). I thought the purpose today was to try and agree on a forum name (or toss ideas out there for such names).

Granted, it took some time and MANY posts to get there (even off the original topic), as threads often do.

I'm not 'suggesting' how you should respond. I simply asked you to offer us your opinion (I even said 'please'!). I was having trouble understanding what your opinion was based on your contribution in the last few posts. I *assumed* you had one if you bothered to come into the thread and read it at all. Apparently a bad assumption on my part.

Since its upsetting your sensibilities so badly, why don't I ask Ewok to lock this thread once he has chimed in on what he feels we should name the new forum. That, my friend, is something I'm sure we can accomodate.

I'm an Engineer and I do deal with looking up references all the time for my task. If you asked me how to do that, how to do this, and I replied, " go and look it up in a textbook. " I would love to see the expression on the face. The point being if this forum was designed only for people to read guides, then, in reality everyone would've become some sort of scientist, or PH.D graduate already.

*raises hand*

I'm somewhat guilty of 'not coming back' - and it was out of frustration.

I literally could not find the questions amongst the 'timetracking'.

Plus it seemed redundant to answer the same 'basic questions' over and over again.

I believe if it weren't so hard to find the questions, they wouldn't even be asked.

When I joined this community was one-fifth the size it is now. It was easier to sift through the posts. That's where I believe good moderation needs to come in. We can split the K1 forum into these two categories, but I don't believe that will be 'enough' without moderation.

The answer to that is whenever those of us who want to contribute to a discussion of the form or function of the site decide they've said what they need to and either the discussion ends naturally or a resolution is reached and implemented.

There are legitimate issues raised here that have spawned from the original suggestion. That's the nature of debate. You have the option not to read it if you think it's beneath your dignity.

Well, while there has been plenty of confusion on what things we can charge to benefit the community, the one things that seems to be a certainty is that more members should have the 'move' feature added to their accounts. If you have a good standing with the site and have been here awhile please PM me if you are interested. I will probably add five or ten people and I apologize if I am not able to add everyone! This small change shoudl help at least with getting things organized as regular members with a little thought can clean things up as they see them .

Well good buddy...since you're wearing your little Junior Admin Badge today, why don't you do just that?

10-4, roger wilco, over and out!

I suggest, that Tracy gets such a button, since she started the threat!

By the way, completely off-topic, but I love that new picture.

You've got to be kidding, right?!

I think we've reached, or are reaching, a number of conclusions that go rather beyond giving a handful of members the right to move posts around. First there has to be somewhere to move them to if they're in a bad place rather than just a wrong one, second there are issues of structure, thirds there are issues of direction, purpose and control..... are we to have no progress on those, or are the concerns raised here not worthy of consideration?

Since we're on the topic of being off the topic. :-( It's soooooo not my favorite picture.

- John

I just started to write nearly the same thing....

Sorry Ewok, I don't understand how you came to that conclusion after reading here. Simply moving threads hasn't seemed to have any effect at all, except on the MENA division problem.

lol uhmmmm, thanks

Just wanted to say something, but my fiance is sooooooooooooo much better with stuff like that

These threads need some dummies in here...I offer myself

Diana

It certainly could be true that people simply don't have the time or interest to contribute any more, but I suspect that isn't true, based on my observations about "how" people will spend their VJ time when left without guidance. Timelines, daisy paths, fancy siggy images, 'gathering threads' etc..

I wonder if it's not a part of active moderation to strongly encourage people to write up THEIR interview experience, medical appt experience, etc---maybe have a format to help the non-writers flesh it out?. My observation has been that people LOVE to read these stories and LOVE writing up their own.. and it's *those* details where we get valuable consulate-specific tips etc. Perhaps our collective error has been in trying to capture this data into Guides and checklists and 'how to's'? Maybe if we went back to a more stripped down format and encouraged this kind of post writing, the rest would solve itself?
I stongly believe that a member-generated site is best at keeping up with changes in the Service and keeps everyone on the 'right' side of the line by encouraging people to reach their own decisions and conclusions about their cases instead of having the answer supplied. Seasoned members can help with the translation of legalese-->humanspeak so that when people DO read source material or Guides they have a better understanding of what the words mean in Immigrationlandia.

<shrug> It's a culture thing. We can talk all we want, but if the culture is not decided from the top and enforced, you get the Wild West, which is what I think VJ has been for awhile.

Oh well...lol....after reading it a few times....I fell completely like a dummie now

Plus, I deleted the picture, because as I just saw...my fiance didn't like it at all... like almost every picture of us *sigh*

ok....back to the topic....I have no idea what to suggest anymore!

Diana

I didn't intend to imply that people don't have interest to contribute to the guides etc any more - I think the culture has changed and it acts as a form of deterrent to that kind of participation now, and an increasingly 'trivialized' content.

I agree with you absolutely that active moderation should be about encouragement and facilitating a renewal of energy and a return to the ethos of posting experiences of interviews and the like. I think those were incredibly valuable resources when it was a common part of VJ content and where not only did such posts give insight into the system but also helped prepare those to come and show that it wasn't as much of an ordeal as they gradually come to expect as their own date grows near.

That's the kind of purpose VJ always had, and one of the most significant things it no longer does. Their lack is a disservice to our members, and I think detract greatly from our value.

And yes, absolutely to your other comments. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I couldn't agree more Meaux.

When I started here I read all I could. Then after our interview, I updated the UK embassy info. I was all about reading past experiences. Now, I've come to not like VJ much. I get yelled at for my siggie - which I've had forever, I get yelled at for telling someone to read guides & posting links, I get yelled at if I don't agree. Moderation could definitely help, if the name-callers & whatever were actually told to tone it down.

I know I'm not a most sunshine & rainbow-y person & I will not apologize for that. I have led teams in my career & personal life, I've accomplished a fair bit. I think I come across harsher on here than I am. I'm also pretty sure I've helped a good many poeple on here.

I was shaking with anger & almost in tears yesterday after that thread in AOS where I was continually mocked & yet no one says anything...?! Yeah, that makes me not want to be a part of VJ.

This was just something in general I have been wanting to do. I think a year and a half ago I added ten people or so that could move threads and overall in all forums (not this issue) organization was improved. So by adding new people this should likely help in that regard. Regarding this thread my question was likely off topic. I am not adding people with the hopes that they will move the "congrats" threads or similar. I should have made that clear. I just got the feeling that overall organization needed some tending to when people post in the wrong forum.

It does Captain.

IMO though moved threads don't need to show in the forum they were incorrectly placed in. A PM to the OP will let them know where their question went.

And a 'good news' sub-forum is where many of those threads should go. I can't see us making much progress without it.

And we need to know what to do with intensely time-driven threads. Kill them? Drop them down another page? What is the appropriate behavior?

Can someone correct me if I am wrong... the general nature of this topic started off discussing a feeling that in the K1 forums people post too many congratulatory statements and declarations of successful and rapid NOA2's (and in so doing made it painful for members who had to wait a lot longer)?

If the above is the case then I am not sure that any conclusions on fixing that have been agreed to or seem ideal (creating another forums may or may not help).

After this was discussed then the issue of new members tending to post questions and not read the guides was raised. I am not sure any conclusions were reached on that as well.

Also the issue of people being a little "loose at the hip" and the need for more moderation was raised. The conclusion was proposed that more moderation be done to remind people that this site is supposed to be more family like and less crazy. I agree and I would volunteer to help step up the moderation if I can also get some feedback from everyone on on where you think things need it the most, and also on what types of events seem the most disruptive to the site. I have a hard time when the only feedback I get is specific posts. I then only moderate those and possibly miss a larger trend.

The issue of organizing some lose and misplaced threads was raised in the thread as well. My solution to help overall is to add more members that can move threads to assist in organization as a lot of times those misplaced threads are not reported to me and I then can not move them.

Thoughts?