No one is saying the USCIS has such an obligation and likewise, there's nothing written any where I know of that a prospective AOS applicant has to overcome any presumption to immigrate in the aforementioned scenario.

You can circle around the risk/benefit as much as you like, the point is, the act itself (entry as a non-immigrant with the intent to imigrate on that entry) is illegal.

So is jaywalking. I am willing to take the risk of jaywalking most places because the risk (of punishment) is low, and even if caught, the stakes are low.
I am not willing to take that risk with US immigration. The stakes for me were too high, not just of a failed adjustment, but knowing the questions that come down the road at naturalization, and knowing that PR status, or even citizenship, can be revoked if material misrepresentations were made. I didn't want to be looking over my shoulder.

The guidelines of this community are that we do not promote illegal activities, especially in regard to immigration. If someone wants to do their research, draw their conclusions and make their own decision, that is for the individual couple to decide. They should have/get all the information to make that decision.

IF THEY ARE ASKED....that is the operative phrase here. THEN it IS on you to prove there was no intent.

Entering the US on a Visitor's Visa, marrying, then deciding to stay is fully within the law.

Marrying within the US in no way shows an intent to immigrate. It shows an intent to marry. People do ALL THE TIME. So no encouragement to break laws is encouraged here.

There is very little the USCIS does that is not subject to arbitrary and discretionary decisions on the part of the US Government.

the word THEN bolded above the the most important part of your statement above. Without the emphasis, the statement could be misleading. you can marry, you can stay, but you cannot enter with the intent to marry AND stay.

...and your purpose for all this discussion is.....?

I agree completely. Look we can argue all day about this touchy topic, the reality is that it IS NOT ILLEGAL for an Immediate relative to enter on a VWP and AOS. Were are not just talking about spouse's, it is LEGAL for parents and children under 21. When you enter on the VWP the POE must be satisfied that you do not have the intent to immigrate, so if they let you into the US you have satisfied to USCIS that your intent was not to immigrate. Remember reality is the key word.

For all of you who had to file waivers for your K1 like I did you remember reading the law about ineligibilities, and how most of us were in fact ELIGIBLE, however the USCIS didn't care about what the law said and still wanted a waiver submitted anyway, well entering on the VWP and AOS is the same situation just because in black and white the law says that it is illegal to AOS after entering on VWP, because of INTENT, it contradicts it self by saying all IMMEDIATE RELATIVES can AOS after entering on VWP.

So we are all disagreeing on a subject which is here nor there. No one likes knowing that some people do it but that is there choice and a totally legal choice.

woooooooooooooweeeeeeeeeeeeee

*crosseyed*

Is this all it takes to generate 58 posts?

The OP made one and disappeared.

Actually....to have citzenship revoked is extremly hard, you have to have done something *really* wrong to get your citizenship taken away....once a citizen, always a citizen unless something SERIOUS has happened,...not something such as entering on the VWP and getting married and adjusting status.

Yes, while you are right that this seems such a trivial mater, I believe the point was that it is fraud. We are not talking about an incidental situation. We are talking about conspiracy to commit fraud. If that were proven, then yes. It is a clear case of fraud and that is an offense to have Citizenship revoked.

That being said, overstays and minor things are forgiven. And the likelihood of this happening in minimal, but fraud is fraud. I would not count on forgiveness for this.

get over yourself!!! It is not fraud. When you enter the US at the POE you have to prove to the Immigration officer's satisfaction that you are not an immigrant. If he or she alows you into the US then you have already proven that your 'INTENT' wasnt to immigrate. If after you have been alowed in you say get married weather planned or not, that is not illegal either because anyone can marry in the US on any visa. Immediate relatives are then alowed to AOS. How hard is that to under stand. Wife, Husband, mom, dad and kids under 21 can all LEGALY enter on the VWP to visit and if circumstances change, (which happens) then they AOS legally. Remeber that once you pass the POE you have satisfied the USCIS that you are not an immigrant.

the POE does not have jurisdiction to conduct interviews that would prevent you from successfully adjusting based on their findings. its a small piece of the bigger picture and your view appears to be very narrow on this matter.

Absolutely not.. this is a complete falsehood... If one makes a misrepresentation in order to gain entry, then any benefit that is based on that entry is null and void. It doesn't matter if CBP let them into the country, if their determination was based on a material misrepresentation made by the alien... Remember that burden of proof is on the alien to prove that a misrepresentation was NOT made ...

Actually that is not the case... if at any time, the USCIS finds that the conditions of the initial entry to the US were fraudulent, then all the cases upon which were based on that entry would be fraudulent and any benefits that were granted based on those petitions would be revoked, including a grant of citizenship.

If what you suggest were the case, the an individual who committed war crimes could never get their citizenship revoked if they lied about their past or their intention when they entered the US. It makes no difference if it was a lie based on a war crime or your immigrant intention.. they are both the same thing.. a misrepresentation made in the course of entry into the US and both carry the same ultimate punishment.. revokation of any benefit based on the misrepresentation.

That's just plain wrong.

Well summarized.

it sounds like we are talking about two different circumstances

What I am talking about is the specific circumstance which the OP is planning on entering on the VWP and getting married. This has been declared in the OP.

If you come over and the immigration officer asks your purpose, which they do. You answer honestly and tell them your coming over to get married, they can and probably will deny you entry into the US.

Therefore, if they ask, you lie, you commit fraud.

I'm glad I kept reading instead of just replying to Bret.
thanks for the expansion, zyg.

The Form rather says it all:

Welcome to the United States

I-94W Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form

Instructions
This form must be completed by every nonimmigrant visitor not in possession of a visitor's visa, who is a national of one of the countries enumerated in 8 CFR 217. The airline can provide you with the current list of eligible countries.

So you complete it and hand it in, you may be asked questions or not, I have never been asked anything other than very basic questions. Certainly nothing on the lines of are you going to marry and adjust. But it does not really matter, I do not believe they keep a transcript, or more precisely I have never heard of anyone been quizzed on what they did or did not say at the PoE.

The issue always is whether if you subsequently want to change to something other than nonimmigrant visitor, you misrepresented yourself at entry.

As has been said, unless you make it really obvious they usually do not push it when adjusting status following marriage. Which makes sense to me. Why bother, unless someone is seriously taking the piss.

I and many others were never asked anything about our entry on a VWP at our AOS interview.... but I would never encourage anyine to plan on entering with intent to do AOS...

Kez

Everyone will have their own interpretation of this topic, most because they are dirty that they had to wait in there home country thats fine, I did also. However, if it is as most of you say, then why are nearly all AOS of immediate relitives approved without even asking anything about their VWP entry, I will tell you why, Because its LEGAL, LEGAL, LEGAL. What is said to the immigration officer doesnt mean squat, as long as you were paroled into the US at a POE you CAN adjust if you are the immediate relitive of a USC.

You people go on and on and on about Intent, that is like me saying the sky is blue and someone else saying that it is clear but appears blue. It doesnt mean squat.

You all say it is Illegal but in fact weather in the back of you little mind you knew that you were going to stay and adjust, until they invent mind readers then the law will only apply to what is going on in reality. Reality being that they came here legaly and became the spouse of a USC. Everyone needs to stop being so upset by people looking to go this avenue because you all had to wait. Big deal.

"Getting away with it" is not the same as something being "legal".

It seems to me that you are the only one getting "upset"

What you are saying is that it is ok to lie because you can.

u are arguing something completely different from what you are stating here. i realize the attempt is futile, but you are defending those who came here via VWP or whatever and adjusted saying thats ok. IT IS OK IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES ie: INTENT. i will give you a little anecdote:

My fiance came to visit me a 4th time and we decided that we would like to make the US our home. we went to USCIS.gov and got overwhelmed, so we went on over to an immigration attorney's office. He said - my fiance never has to leave! our jaws dropped to the floor and asked him to explain (too good to be true!). he went on to explain : apartment in home country, job, car, return plane ticket and most of all that he had come for a visit only with INTENT to return home! we subsequently went with the K1 anyway.

our *arguing* with you has NOTHING to do with jealousy of those who were able to adjust from VWP, etc. it has to do with you repeatedly focusing on the wrong part of the story.


it is not illegal under certain circumstances. good lord.

Hi LorraV,

Welcome to vj. Good luck on your immigration journey. From personal experience, arriving in the USA on a visitor's visa, getting married, and then applying for an AOS is legal to do. This is provided if they DID NOT come into the USA with the intention of immigration fraud by getting married here in the USA. The AOS this way worked for me (as I got my AOS approved/Green Card), but I can't say that it will work for everyone else, as every situation is different.

My best advice to your friend and to anyone else: Hire a good immigration lawyer.

Ant

From the USCIS website:




As stated before, if the intention changes after entry. That is a whole different ballgame.

But to have plans to get married already, clearly states intention.

its about intending to marry AND stay. you can plan to get married upon entry and just go home and do a K3 or CR1/IR1...

Yes, thank you for the correction, that is what I meant.

I have seen a few postings from people who were refused adjustment after entering on the VWP, not many but it certainly is not always a given.

If memory serves me correctly the last one came over on the VWP without intent to marry but did so. Anyway they then decided she should stay and adjust. Went on a cruise for honeymoon, re-entered on the VWP and filed a week later.

My wife had a consultation with a Lawyer who basically said just come on over marry and file, it varies but I had too many loose ends to go that route. I have nothing against those who can.

It would be pretty easy for the rules to not allow it.

Yes those circumstances being that you are the Immediate relitive of a USC. Im not upset I just think that it is funny that everyone here gets on the bandwagon. At the end of the day, I am correct and you are all wrong!!! Bottom line...... if you enter on the VWP and remain as the immediate relitive of a USC you can AOS, intent will not be an issue when AOS because when entering at the POE you prove that you have no intent thats where the intent factor will die in USCIS eyes.
If someone enters with the thought of staying in the back of their head then that thought is probibly with 700 other thoughts that no one would know about, so everyone get over yourselves and listen to REALITY.

I think it's hilarious that you insist that you are right and everyone else is wrong (and that you are not upset despite the tone of your posts!). You are conflating two different issues - being admitted and not having intent, just because one is admitted does not mean they did not misrepresent themselves and that they are guaranteed home free and can adjust status.

... my sides hurt...

The bottom line is that if you enter on a VWP/tourist visa and then file for AOS, if USCIS see at interview that you have good enough evidence of a real marriage, then they probably will not even question you about intent at entry.... if on the other hand they have doubts about the validity of your marriage they could use your entry on the VWP/tourist visa as an avenue to give reason for denial...

There are risks of doing AOS from a VWP/tourist Visa the main one for VWP is that you have given up your rights to appeal against a denial so it is easier for USCIS to have you removed... if you are happy to take that risk then so be it... if not then go the K1/K3/CR1 route...

Kez

You do not have to prove that you have no immigrant intent, no idea how you could do that anyway. You state that you do not.

People have been refused AoS for misuse of the VWP, not many, but they are out there.

OH PUHLEEEEEEEEESE. You remind me of another one on here a couple months back who SWORE he was right about working without the EAD. Turns out he was WRONG! Isn't it possible that you COULD be wrong too? Just a question...curiosity really...how does one enter on the VWP as an Immdediate Relative if you aren't married yet? BTW...it's spelled relative, not relitive....probibly is spelled probably and you need an apostrophe in Im..I'm.

Most of the time when people ask about being denied entry at the POE they are told to make sure they have strong ties to their home country. IF the CBP is satisfied that you have no intentions of immigrating then one can enter successfully but that has NOTHING to do with AOS. IF while one is here and decided to on the spur of the moment get married...with NO intentions of doing that when entering on the VWP...that is NOT fraudulent.

BTW, I am over myself...I don't have any aspirations of being supremely right all the time and I am definitely IN the real world and I do know what reality is. Sounds like ya got a really big ego problem there buddy!

When you enter on a nonimmigrant visa (excluding K-1/K-3) or the VWP, you are explicitly or implicitly asserting that your purpose is to visit/study/work/whatever, and then leave. When entering at the PoE, you assert it; if it turns out to be a lie, then you've lied. Saying "but the border officer believed my lie!" isn't going to help.

The K-1 is the non-immigrant visa that provides a path to adjust status. So it's illegal to use a tourist visa to come here and and intend to stay. There is nothing that screeching about sour grapes and people being jealous will do to make that legal.

meauxna nails it though. The practical consequences of using a tourist visa to marry and stay are in all likelihood nil, just like the practical consequences of my driving over the speed limit by 4 miles an hour are in all likelihood nil. That doesn't mean that adjusting status after using the VWP with immigrant intent is legal any more than it means the speed limit is really 69 miles an hour on I-95. And it doesn't mean that it would be good advice to say to a new driver "the speed limit is legally 69 miles an hour."

USCIS doesn't want to break up families any more than they have to, and starting deportation proceedings is a pain in the ###. Pulling people over for doing 69 in a 65 zone is a pain in the ### too, but again, none of this goes towards the legality of it. People can take risks if they want, but we're not going to say those risks are legal or negligible.

Like the analogy, whilst doing a few miles over most likely will not cause you grief, if you decide to overtake a police car doing the exact speed limit by those few miles per hour, then you can hardly complain about the ticket.

In both cases there is lee way, just do not take it too far.

Now you are personally attacking me, cheers. Back to the subject. To all of you who are attacking my comments, that is fine, you are all going on about 'weather they say they are going to stay and marry or not it is illegal'. Well everyone, a lesson in life; What a person is thinking is their business. If they don't share those thoughts then the are innocent of any kind of fraud. The fact of the matter is yes, thats right FACT of the matter is that if someone enters on the VWP and enters like everyone else and then gets married it is legal to AOS. If mum and dad enter on the VWP and stay and AOS it is legal.
Until USCIS obtains mind readers then the person AOS is innocent of any accusations.
You people saying that it doesn't matter because even if they had the intent in their minds then they are committing fraud, well I have one answer for you all. In reality where I live people's thoughts are their own business and thats that.

By the way I am not using an aggressive tone, and I know that I am certainly not right about everything like some of you guy's think you are. I just know that what I am saying about this subject is totally correct. The figures speak for themselves.
Oh and to another previous poster; I agree that if a marriage is clearly fraudulent then that person should be denied and sent packing weather AOS from VWP or AOS from any other type of visa.

Just a question...curiosity really...how does one enter on the VWP as an Immdediate Relative if you aren't married yet?
[/quote]


Check my posts, your immediate relatives include mum and dad and children under 21, not just spouse. Gee you are a real winner hey.

I've been looking into this, and must admit am having a hard time finding where in law it says that you can be denied AOS for having immigration intent. In fact there is a specific part of the INA where it says that the rule that you cannot adjust status if you arrive on a Visa Waiver does not apply to immediate relatives.

I'm not convinced like nathmc31 is, but I'd like to see a cogent argument as to why he is wrong, rather than just "convential wisdom".

When I went to ask about bring my parents over at my local USCIS office I was told once I am a Citizen have them come over on the VWP when they are ready and then file I-130 and AOS for them both...

Kez

ahhhhhh. the topic has come full circle in exactly (checking watch) 4 years and 362 days.
(you might even find, if you keep looking, that if immigrant intent is the ONLY bar to adjustment they still can't use it to deny)

"Material misrepresentation" is an important phrase in the discussion (yes nathan, it really DOES matter what you say at the POE) and the advising of others in how to make that "clean entry" (hey, there is another good search phrase for you) are the problems.

I said before: if someone wants to do the research, understand what they are doing and can stomach knowing they've done something NQR, then the decision is up to them. I myself would never tell someone to plan to immigrate this way, and I'm not part of any online communities that do so either.

Oh yeah, dr_lha, search in the Usenet group alt.visa.us.marriage-based -- you can find it at google.com/groups Like I say, the conversation has been going on for a spell. You can also search on "blood money" or "10 foot pole" (in its variations) for lots of opinions and facts on the topic.

I do not believe that is the debate. I believe the issue is that when at the POE, if you lie to the officer, you jeopardize your immigration process. CBP is very specific about the VWP. this is from the CBP website



Not saying that these have not been forgiven in the past, but that there is the chance that by violating these terms, you could find yourself at the short end of a AOS denial. Which, if you enter in the VWP, you automatically waive your right to dispute.

Check my posts, your immediate relatives include mum and dad and children under 21, not just spouse. Gee you are a real winner hey.