Well amoung the other threds recently started, things to discuss with your SO... MENA_ization.... or becoming very much (maybe too much) like the people of your SO's country has not been addressed. Of course, this could happen to any couple, but with MENA I think it can be more extreme and oblivous.
This thread is not meant to be funny or poke fun at anyone... but to enlighten.

I used the (made-up) word MENA-ization...not arabization or islamization as I think MENA-ization includes then everyone... not only Arabs and Muslims.

MENA-ization definition for reference to my meaning: gradual transformation or suddenly of a person into one that speaks the native tongue of their MENA SO and changing themselves in every or many things to be part of the their culture. Sometimes this happens to one who wants to please their SO or their SO's family... or in other cases by the demand of their SO. Signs of MENA-ization are and not limited to: Suddenly changing many or all outward appearances to become more like your SO's countrymen/women, converting a religion when one is not sure if it what one believes or is sure is even right, only surrounding yourself with people of that country now, etc... (there are many many more, but I just cannot think of them now)
I know many people, including myself (back in my young days of course) who at one point or time fell (lack of a better word) victim to MENA-ization... trying to please their SO. But when does doing little things to make your SO more comfortable and happy which is normal, into something abnormal???

I think this is a very very interesting topic. How do we balance becoming intergrated into our SO's family and culture with maintaining who we are as individuals. It's a very difficult line to walk for some, in some areas more than other areas etc. And if you do change something about yourself (say adopting the SO's religion) for sincere reasons, will you rfamily or friends think its just MENA-ization?

I'm always reluctant when I think of telling anyone I converted to Islam for just that reason - that they will think it was just for my fiance.
For goodness sakes, I have a brain of my own and while it might not always be evident, I do use it!!!
People are really rude and ought to think more before speaking.

i wouldnt say i have been "meannanized" but i have learned pretty fluent arabic from living there, i have toned down the way i dress, but i did disrespect myself alot in the past the way i use to dress...all the changes i made though, were never directed to impress my husband and his family, it was merely to better myself

I eat lamb much more than I used to.

I hate lamb...lol

I used to think it was too fatty but it's sooo good and rich!

Thank you for discussing these things for those of us who are interested to learn and listen for when our guys are here.

You are funny Sarah.

______
On another note, I have noticed on another board I am on, that many of women there and also many women in the masjid I used to attend that many were "MENA-ized" ... and I donnot mean some changes any person will go throu when marrying a person of another culture...but flipping themselves inside out ...coming out a totally different person. In some people I "felt" the chnage was genuine but in other it "felt" fake... and when talking to some of these women came to know many of these changes were by pressure of their SO or their SO's family...
I know in my first marriage, I tried hard to "fit in" and my ex tried to make me into "arab" ... which I did not appreciate at all and eventually was one of the reasons our relationship ended.


Yes my intention is to be enlighten and maybe have other learn something too.... I know I went throu this in my 1st marriage... and in my 2nd (current) marriage... have had NO changes to appease anyone... and I have a relationship with my husband and his family for it I think.
If anyone out thinks this post is to make fun, sorry it is not my intention.

Depends how it is cooked and if it really lamb or just goat or mutton being called lamb.

Depends how it is cooked and if it really lamb or just goat or mutton being called lamb.

I think both people change, especially if you are living in the other persons country. When I lived in Jordan, I dressed way more conservatively then I did before. I use to wear low cut tops and tops with thin straps. Now I dress a Little more demure. Not only was this because my DH asked me to do it but it even makes my children happier as they were always trying to redress me.

I expect when my DH is here he will change with a few things... it is more like, when in rome....

However.... when I was married the first time, I had to change a Little to live with him as well as him me. I think marriage is a blend of two people. So there is give and take with both


I hated even the thought of lamb till I had it UNKNOWINGLY there... and now I love it... but still cant see it on the bone.


Wendy

i think my husband has become more american-ized then i have become mena-ized. and sarah...u r so right about eating more lamb now. the only time ive ever ate lamb was at the festivals in a gyro...now im cooking the stuff.

i think the only thing ive changed is making middle eastern food. i dont cook it on a daily basis but for special occasions for him.

but my best friend was really mena-ized when she married her lebonese husband. she became one of them right down to trying to get a lebonese passport (which failed). she changed religion....learned the language...covered her hair and even started believing everything they say about everything...etc.

now she has divorsed him and she is back to her old self except she uncoveres now. she still kept the religion but not following it as closely as she once did. she is even dating a christian man which is a no no. she is hoping to even marry him some day.

she is even dating a christian man which is a no no. she is hoping to even marry him some day.

I was married to a Christian man for nearly 30 years, and I was born Muslim. God has no problem with it. Only Muslims do.

well after her becoming muslim she would say...oh no i could never marry a christian man if something happened to my husband. thats a big no no in my religion.

That was part of her MENAizing. It's not true that it's against the faith. It's just against cultural sensitivities. I wish her well.

grrrrrrrrrrr

J

My husband does not want me to MENAize at all. He says he fell in love with me the way I am and does not want me to change. I tell him the same thought....I don't want him to change and start acting like some of the american men.

This has recently been a topic of blog discussion, specifically in relation to american converts completely embracing their husband's culture.

I believe the discussion started here at al-Mayara's blog with UmmJekll and Sister Hyde. PM continues with If Islam Is For All Times And Places, Then Why Must We All Become7thCentury Arabs?. Umar Lee runs with PM's topic.

And, I posted about converts creating an identity.

In general, my feelings are that I do my best to embrace Islam as an american muslim, and don't see a need to become egyptian in order to be a good wife for my husband. Nor do I see my husband needing to become an american in order to be a good husband for me. We both appreciate each other's culture, and do take parts of it. But, it's a balance.

The book that Peezey recommended to me was just about this subject. I wish I could remember the name of it but I gave it to someone in Egypt after I finished reading it.

I haven't been MENA'ized but he's not here yet so who knows. I think it's a 50/50 thing though. I'll have to definitely learn how to speak Arabic better because I want to know what his sisters are saying to me and I will have to learn how to cook his favorite Egyptian dishes because I want him to feel at home even though he's half a world away. (plus I love egyptian food for the most part).

On the same token though he is going to have to get used to American pizza on Friday nights with popcorn and movies after with the kids...which is something we have as a routine at our house and also is something he's looking forward to.


He definitely wants me to wear hijaab but he knows that it has to come from me so he is being very patient with me. I wore it all the time there but view it very differently here. I dress super modestly and for now I feel that it's enough though I do feel a wee bit of pull from within myself so we'll see and time will tell. The cultural part of that I think is how to wear it. I loved this Pakistani woman on the airplane on the way back and how she wore it all loose and pretty but most Egyptians wear it much tighter and don't show any hair at all. For her it was more of a covering but not super cover if that makes sense. Anyways not to get into a hijaab discussion but I think the different ways of wearing it is definitely a MENA thing and depends on what country you're from.

All in all it will be a change on both of our parts and I truly believe our lives will be enriched from it.

The balance is the trick. There nothing "mean-ization" in about learning his native language or enjoying his culture. A bi-national home is the merging of two culture and every home will express that differently. Both partners will change and adapt and that is normal and necessary IMO. The danger is when one partner looses their sense of identity and becomes a characture of the othe's culture.
Thanks Rahma for posting these blogs.

Agreed

I tried becoming something I'm not to "please" my ex. All I did was confuse myself and get frustrated. I've grown up a lot since I was first married to the ex. Now I'm happy to just be me.

Great blogs btw.

Ditto this. We're exactly the same.

It's helpful to have a long-term view of this issue. When I went to Sunday school as a child in the 1960s, women didn;t even cover their hair in mosque except to pray. I was in undergrad school in the 1970s, and there were women in cross-cultural relationships struggling with this because of the large number of international students at the university. Lots of Turks and Iranians married American women and the women would be pressured to become more like Turks and Iranian women.

Born American Muslims, raised here and no matter what their heritage, started to feel the pressure to act like Arabs around about 25 years ago, when the political Arab superiority movement gained steam in the US. Now, all Muslim nations are talking about why they should be expected to do everything as is done in the Gulf states, the ones trying hardest to impose their culture on all Muslims. Ironically, Iran is now trying to compete with the Gulf influence.

Diversity of thougtht and expression has been a tradition in Islam, but as the Muslim world expands, and the movement away from diversity in the name of unity grows; isolation, conformity, anti-western sentiment, and intolerance of non-Muslims has fuled a widening conflict between moderate Muslims and those who feel dissed by the world. Women are the fodder in this conflict, having been designated as the vessels of honor and tradition for centuries. The pressure for Muslim men in the ummah to prove they are alpha males by how well they conform, control and, if needed, convert, their women will continue to grow.

Thank you Rahma for your reply and everyone else too... but I was not referring to people adjusting to their SO at all...in terms of compromise (everyone everyday makes compromises esp when it comes to their loved ones).... I mean totally changing yourself to appease your SO and/or their family (and you really donnot like to do deep in your heart)...this is about I posted about. And as Rahma stated there is balance, when incorporating you, your culture and your SO's.... this is called compromise (again that word). And that is normal... but I speak of the extreme and abnormal side of that. Like for example: a man ask his wife to cover (completely) and she is only doing it to please him, or another example, she goes from being an articulate individual to being the parrot of her husband... Or another example: taking whatever he says about anything as fact, without even thinking to ask quesitons or seek proves.this is what I mean.

I think you Moody can identify with what I was trying to ask. As I think you can kinda understand .... I have too, done ALOT of growing up since my ex.

I surfed onto this thread and find it interesting in relation to my case - my question is how many were MENA-ized(or in my case Desi-fied) before you met your SO and you met your SO as a result of being interested in that culture or religion? In my case I first visited Nepal in 2001 and became fascinated with Nepali and Indian culture. I practice Hinduism and Buddhism(in Nepal, unlike India, it is common to mix aspects of both), wear salwar kameez daily and have learned to cook Indian and Nepali dishes. I am studying Nepali but it's slow going... I was doing all of these things before I met Kumar. If I hadn't gone to the temple to do puja one morning we would not have met... I'm just curious if this is like anybody else's experience.

I had been interested in Egypt long before I met my husband . . . I was going to meetings of the local chapter of ARCE to listen to lectures on Ancient Egypt and talk to ppl who had been to Egypt. I listened to Egyptian music and ate Egyptian/ME food because I became interested in Egyptian dance (aka belly dance but really Raks Sharki . . Dance of the East). I had Egyptian friends. I knew a bit of Arabic. It just so happens when I went on my 2nd trip to Egypt that I met him thru other friends with whom I had traveled (met his brother on my first trip). So, he didn't MENA-ize me and I think he is more than just an Egypt . . . so he wants to learn as much as I want to learn about each other's countries, etc.

LOL, I think salwar kameez is much more interesting garb to wear than some of the clothing I saw in Egypt. I can go down the street here and get myself one custom made if that is what I want. . . . maybe I'll still do that.

Sometimes, I think I am a fusion of cultures since I have known ppl from all over and try out different things from all of those . . . Turkey, Iran, India, pakistan, Egypt (of course), Lebanon, Jordan, Hong Kong/China, Thailand, Vietnam, Korea . . . a world of variety out there!!!!

When I was in second grade, my family went to the Chicago Field museum and toured their egypt exhibit. I fell in love and decided I would wanted to be an egyptologist. I converted my best friend, and together we got our hands on everything egypt related possible. I was obsessed for years, and my presents at birthdays and whatnot were almost always in the egyptian theme. I still have all of this - a blow up mummy in the corner of our living room, several papyrus prints, ancient egyptian theme jewlery and lots of little nicknacks.

I kind of fell away from that after junior high. My interest in egypt was peeked again when I had a miserable time at college and spent a lot of time online. I chatted with people from all over the world, and met my future husband. The underlying love of egypt was rekindled, and I promptly delved back into egyptian history, including everything beyond ancient egypt, which was all new to me.

I definately have an affinity to egyptian culture through my husband, but it's just part of all of the cultures I appreciate, like cbd2cai.

When I met Mohammed, I had to look at a map to see where Jordan was. I'm not MENA-ized. I'm American.

Jackie

hi guys new here

i guess its a bit different... my so is israeli... moroccan israeli.

ive always been interested in Israel, but my interest in the larger middle east has def grown since we started dating. ive never really loved american culture anyways, so i guess this is my outlet. his culture is very different from mine, but i love it, the family, the feeling, everything

Welcome to VJ!

This is a great topic because when you are muslim and with an Arabic guy, you are accused of this a lot and I have to explain to people that I was muslim before I meet him. I am 24 and I am in the Navy for those that know me. I have always had an interest in Islam since I was 12 years old- most consider me to be a Malcolm X muslim. I tried to wear hijib, stopped eating pork, I would dress modestily and I visited a masjid one time after seriously beggin my mother to take me. But I did not convert, I just continue in learning of Black History and then it lead to African hisoty and this lead to Islam becuase it is a very important part of the history.

I got accepted in to a foreign lanuage program in High School and I started to study Arabic. When I joined the Navy I was offered the opportunity to be a translator in the language however, I decided against. After this I went to boot camp and there they had religious services and I attended the Islamic one, they asked who wanted to be muslim and I ran to the front. I never really understood how to become muslim but that day I did. Being in the military and being muslim is very hard when you do not know how to do it. So I did not practice a lot after this point. However, when I got to Philadelphia I began to see women in hijib and I felt a little lost. Not only this but after traveling to the middle east with the military I began to discover how much was true and was not. This was a very interesting part of my life and the interest came back.

I returned home and started to look for the masjid and I this is were the journey of metting my fiance bagan. I have been practicing for a long time and it is funny because it seem like before I thought that if I was to marry someone from a muslim country it would make me a better one. Well it seems like I know more than my fiance. It is funny becuase when he was told I was a convert he was so excited and h said that he wanted to teach me about islam and when he talks to me it is like "I know that." What makes me upset is the same happens with his family. The thing that my friend pointed out to me was that as being a convert he says we seem to do a research and also learn the different schools of thought. To were they do not learn anything but that one school and they do not question much. So I find myself having to explain and show things to my SO.

The thing that I hate is that I have been trying to learn Arabic for a long time, but my understand of french has been sparked by being with him. My mother and grandparents speak Crelo so Iunderstand most of it, but now I am in to the study of French because it seems to be easy and is very compabitily with english. Also it is helping with my English. (AS funny as this may sound.) I am also trying to understand his dialect of arabic however it becomes frustrating.

One thing some of his family said to me in the US is that I should go to the library and get some books on Morocco. Which pissed me off becuase what about him, he should go get a book about me. Also when I am try they are like Moroccans this and Moroccan that and it gets on my nerves because I am not Moroccan and I do not like everythign they do.

The culture has expanded my thinking and horizons a little but I refuse to change everything about myself. I know some ladies you would think they are Moroccan, they learn the language, they cook it, dress like and so change the entire house around. And then he was like she is a good wife, I was upset set because if this is what he expects he can forget it. I want to try and learn to cook different things, I find myself eating olives in the morning, and I am trying to learn because I really love to talk and if I continue this I will have to learn to speak with his family and his family is improving there english for me. This to me is great and not being MENA-ized but I have seen so many women that have done it.

It is not only crazy but it seems to make some people think that this is what we do. Me I like the intergrating factor and combining the cultures, I love the blue jeans and scarf look. I love culture and I would try to learn anyone's but not being me is something I can not do. I think I tired to hard at first but now I do not even care to get all in to it.

The tow people in a relationship will learn from each other no matter what type of situation it is, and I think it is the best part of the dual culture relationship. Even though this is something he learn bad, I think I have thought my So how to use the bad english words. It is so funny becuase remember I am a sailor and I need about 30 minutes after work to readjust. So if he calls while I am not work there is no telling what he will hear. So I was yelling at him and I was like you did not responded to my f-ing email. And he reply I did repsond the f-ing thing do not work. I died laughing, it seems like I understood him better when you used that word. (Being a sailor and all, the word goes in every sentence.)

So I taught him bad words but it is so ok. I can also tell you what it is in Arabic!!! And French!!!

interesting reply. i've been wondering about the blue jean/scarf look. i'm no expert on islam....let me say that first. so please, if someone who knows the answer, let me know.

but isn't the point of the hijab to cover yourself so men getting excited by you... and you are supposed to wear a djellaba also? if you wear tight jeans and a scarf, whats the point? men exactly aren't looking at hair to get turned on.

I agree with you. I want to fully embrace Moroccan culture for our marriage but also keep my own identity. I want to show our children everything they came from. When I am in Morocco I ask a lot of questions, I learn more and more Arabic as I go, and I learn to cook dishes from my fiances mother. I do think my fiance will do the same when he gets to the US.

Very good postings. Thanks.

I don't remember the poster saying anything about "tight" jeans. Just because you wear jeans doesn't mean they need to be tight. They can also be worn with a longer shirt which will cover the areas that need to be covered if they are tight on the top half.

She never said the jeans were tight. In Egypt that was actually the norm...jeans and a scarf. The jeans are loose enough so as not to show too many curves or anything.

I'm not an internet link queen but there are many cool Islamic shops where you can see different styles of dress. here's and example of some loose jeans. No you're not "supposed" to wear a djellababa or whatever. There is no "supposed" to anything. It should come from within you in your understanding of the interpretation of what is written in the Quran. That's actually a good point though in relation to this topic....i.e. how different cultures dress to abide by the modesty guidelines. It's kind of all relative, to me anyway, depending on the culture you live in. Maybe in Morrocco it's the djellaba...I don't know since I've never been there , but here that would stick out like a sore thumb so the loose jeans and scarf might be the more common option. Would be cool to see a fashion picture essay on the different cultures of muslimahs and how they dress.

i wasn't referring to the poster above with my jean comment...... its in general. i've seen a lot of women wear tight jeans, tight shirts, and a scarf......... just a question.

Well then I agree it's odd that one would do that. Kind of defeats the purpose.

I've heard that many younger girls do it, though perhaps it is older women as well. Maybe they just aren't thinking about it or don't know?? Or... don't care but feel that they are required to cover their hair so they do, regardless of the clothing they wear.

LOL, I've seen older Egyptian women wearing tight jeans and no head scarves . . . depends on the area in Cairo that you go to. More conservative areas (like working class), you would see looser clothing, more covered! I know families where the mother doesn't cover but the daughter decided to go ahead and cover.

Personally, I like to be comfortable so tight jeans . . not something that I wear anymore . . . loose baggy pants are great for me!!

I guess everyone interprets their religion their own way. But to me I find this style of dress very confusing.Men are usually tempted by your body, not your hairstyle.

I was MENAsized by my family, God bless 'em.

The idea of hijab doesn't only refer to a head covering. It refers to modesty and it is obligatory to men and women. Along the way the different modes of modesty have come up for women, scarves, burqa, niqab, different amounts of covering or no covering, and men have used the idea that a woman must cover because men shouldn't see your bits.

it sounds like you want to start trouble, but before I get upset. I want to say who said anything about tight jeans. There are many styles of jeans and I prefer the bell bottom look with a nice short dress that I make my shrit. I am not sure if you are muslim or married to one, however, I am getting sick and tired of people that make comments and from what they think islam is they make assumations about muslims. You are not the one to judge anybody, I am not the one to judge anybody and if someone wants to wear tight jeans that is their busy.

Me I do not wear them because I do not think it is okay. However, some people and some schools of thought may allow them. I am not trying to attack the person that wrote this post but in general. I know a lot of things that Christians are suppose to do and yet they do not do it. And it makes me angey when someone wants to call you on what you do. Islam and being a muslim is a step process, wearing a scarf does not make you a muslim. I am not sure if it is in the Quran or hadith, but I know that it is not recommended to blink your eyes and become muslim. One thing about islam is, is that you will be judge by yourself. Nobody else with you, it is your relationship with god that matters. What someone thinks about you and how you should do things is there busy. But if you force someone to do something and it is not from the heart I think you will not receive the blessing of what you are doing.

If I force you to become muslim and pray, you are not doing it because you want to be closer to god you are doing it to please someone else and this is not worshipping the one and only god. What a muslim does and what other religions should do is not that different. I am sorry to take this personal and if I make someone upset I am sorry, in advance. But I am so sick and tired of people doing that. I believe I shared this stroy before but during the month of Ramadan someone tried to call me out to tell me that I was eating. He knows what he knows with his limited information about Islam, so I said very loud so that everyone knows he is an a hole that "When a muslim woman is on her period she is not allowed to fast." He was so embrassed but did he care about how he made me feel? Since when was the US, Saudai Arabia, and I asked him "Are you the muslim police?"

Private -- I think you're making many excellent points in your posts here. Well done !



-MK

i wasn't referring to you. i already made that clear. it was a comment based off of reading what you said that reminded me of something i see all the time in the united states and morocco. its just a question directed at everyone! i'm not accusing you or judging your religious beliefs. that is none of my business.
i was in morocco less than a week ago and saw many women wearing tight jeans and tight shirts with a scarf. i was simply asking what the purpose of this was. i am trying to get it clear to give me futher knowledge of islam and their traditions. i was under the impression (this impression given to me by muslim people) that the scarf and djellaba are worn so that men won't be tempted when they look at you. for modesty. but just because you cover your skin but wear tight clothes, is that still modest? i really am asking and don't mean to offend. if what i was told is correct, then wearing tight jeans and a scarf don't make sense to me. if i'm wrong, then please explain. i just want to be educated futher.

Firstly I can understand how someone would take offense though it is soooooo sooooo hard to understand what a person's intent is on the internet since there is no facial expression or vocal tone on these threads. I kind of think if I commented that I've seen tons and tons of Christians sleeping around and not ever going to church and asked if that is part of Christianity, people would get offended.

If you see people with tight jeans on and a scarf on their head, who knows what their intent is. Maybe they used to dress a heck of a lot worse before they became Muslim and this is like step 5 in their progression of becoming more modest, maybe they grew up muslim and don't wanna wear the scarf at all but just throw the thing on 'cause their parents make them and they wear the tight jeans out of protest. Only way to find out for sure is to stop and ask them. There is no uniform for muslims to wear, it's all an individual thing and I can't judge why this one does this or that one does that. That is for Allah to do at the end of their life and for them to answer for when they are being judged. What I think doesn't matter in the end.

Hope that helps and if you truly want info on Islam, I've learned the hard way that here is not the place to ask. There are tons of helpful sites out there and Rhama is our resident internet link queen so I'm sure she or others could lend a helping hand in pasting some links. The Idiot's Guide to Islam is a good place to start. It's an easy read and is what got me intrigued about the religion when I first started researching it.

I think you're right about not asking around here. I'll stick to my original intent and get information on the visa process and ways to help my fiance adjust to living in the US. I'll save the Islamic questions for others.
I think I haven't been getting my point across the right way. You can't see me, my tone, and know who I am and my past to know my intent.

Here'sm what is interesating and IMO important about understanding hijab for women. The djellaba is older than Islam in Morocco. When Islam is introduced to Morocco, the sensibilities about modesty in Morocco seemed to adapt to Islam and today woman can wear djellaba as a form of Islamic dress. So it makes sense to me that as islm is introduced to a more western nation such as the US , that our sense of style can also be adapted and made to match the believer's understanding of hijab.

I als onotice exactly what you notice about choice of clothing (tight jeans/shirts) as long as it also has a scarf. Sometimes that is sexier than more revealing clothing. But for some because skin is all covered, its considered modest.

Just keep in mind there is a history here too. Just like a family we have some that bicker and some that are close. The more you are on VJ, the more you start to know the personalities of the people, the more interactions you have witnessed, the better you understand why some post as they do. I am glad you have joined us!

Just remember when a question is asked, everyone has an opinion and there are some strong confident women here who love a good discussion. I for one love to talk and even if we disagree, its justme saying what I think (which can mean as little or as much as the reader wants to take from it). It's apublic forum and we are all very differnt from each other and i bet without the visa process being in common, most of us wouldn't normally be friends in real life . ...does that sound bad?

Hahhahaha MBP you ain't never lied !

It's hard to just step into this forum and instantly understand all the dynamics and all the personalities. Some of us have been here for quite some time and I have to say we've seen some *ahem* incredible things -- often that may influence our replies.

But anywayyyy welcome to the ME/NA forum, abdounjen -- I'm glad you joined us, and I'm wishing you the very best of luck in your visa journey !



-MK