There were a few comments made about life insurance policies yesterday, but I'm wondering if anyone has discussed if they will have a will in the US with their SO based on islamic inheritence law? And for those of you considering buying property and/or moving to a country that abides by islamic inheritence law---Morocco, Egypt---have you considered what this means should one or the other of you die?

To be honest... I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I undertand wills, and inheritence, but as for the Islamic way of it, no clue. Can you please explain or give a site where I can better figure this out. Thanks!

We haven't discussed or even thought about that. Considering that neither of us knows anything about islamic inheritance law, I suppose we will need to look into that. Thanks for the reminder! Is this only an issue if we decide to buy property in Morocco? I can't see how it would pertain to anything here in the U.S. for us.

For property in the US, it would pertain to those whose husbands would like to disperse their property at death according to Islamic inheritence rules, rather than the inheritence laws of your state. Should he want to go with islamic inheritence in the US, a will would be required, just like any difference in inheritence from state law.

Yes, it would automatically apply should you have property in Morocco.

We haven't discussed it. It wasn't discussed with my ex either. My ex believes that life insurance is haram so never had it. I didn't work during the marriage so I didn't have it either.

I'm not talking about insurance policies as much as I'm talking about joint real property, ie, savings, 401k, homes, cars, investments.

You still didn't answer my question. What is it? How does it work? What's so different between the two ways?

Yup, definately something to be discussed. It's good to become generally familiar with inheretence laws in your state anyways once you get married. Imagine if you pass on, and you're significant other is completely in the dark about what to do estate wise.

It's a good idea to become lay out a plan and talk about what would happen if either of you pass away. Heck, it's a good idea to lay out a plan about what would happen in any emergency situation.

Does he want to be buried in his home country?
Does he want to be buried in an islamic manner, within 24 hours of death?
How about a funeral?
How do the inheretence laws work in your state if you die intestate (without a will)? In Minnesota, if you don't own any real estate and your estate is worth less than $20,000, if a spouse dies, all his or her property is automatically transfered to the surviving spouse.
Is your bank accounts held in joint tenancy, so that it automatically goes to the surviving spouse, or is it tenency in common, and may be locked up until the estate is probated (gone through the process of distributing the estate after death)?

Since my husband or I do not really "own" anything it's not an issue. He owns property in Egypt through his family (he'll inherit it at some point). I don't expect a piece of that if we divorce.

Inheritence is for death, not divorce.

There is no easy way to describe islamic inheritence. It all depends on who is alive when the man dies. If there are no children, the wife gets 1/4, the rest is disbursed to other living relatives. If there are children, the wife gets 1/8, the rest disbursed to children, male children first, then other living relatives.

There are tons of different scenarios. Grandparents, parents, cousins can and do inherit.

Yes, I know roughly about Islamic inheritance. I know the basics but I'm no scholar or anything. If I knew exactly what my husband owned (through his family) I could better answer your question.

Sorry I brought up divorce, my bad.

I have no clue.

I should probably figure all of this out before considering putting his name on anything, like my house, credit cards, etc.

Anyone have a good link, like Janine was asking about?

I wonder if that happened with my husbands family when his father passed last year. As far as I know his mother is holding everything and his brother is doing the finances and books of all their property and stores. But as far as I know as soon as we get to Morocco, everything will be turned over to my husband. But then we have the other problem of how he's going to do everything from here.

You're definitely right, rahma. I suppose once we really have something to call our own we will have to start thinking about this stuff. But I hate thinking about death and funeral arrangements. I don't even know what I would want for myself, except to just never die of course.

I had to make out a will and a living will ( i think that's the term) before I left due to unheard of pressure from my parents and ex husband and it suuuucked. I cried through the whole thing.

Wills can be change.

Another tip - if you can't speak your husband's language fluently, find an american side buddy who would be willing to communicate with the family back home in case of emergency.

Now that is a good one, i often wondered what i would do Ahmed speaks english good, one brother a little. I was thinking the other day if i needed to call there what would i do.

my husband has a house in syria. his family can have it if he dies. what good will it do me anyway? we have already descussed that. if he has life insurance and stuff here then it will be mine...what good would it do his family there?

What good will it do his family there? You mean if he dies, has $1million policy, has a will that says you get 1/4 and the rest goes to his parents, you're telling me $750,000 won't do them any good there?

Interesting topic. I am surprised that allot more people have not even talked about this stuff in passing. I have seen so many families that have not talked about and then something happened and they are total lost.

I don't want my stuff bottled up in probate if I can help it.

I think everyone woman should learn about the Islamic Law as it pertains to Inheritence. I am learning about it and I am very shocked at some of the things I am learning and trying to comprehend it.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine last night about what our husbands wanted done with their bodies if they should pass. Her comment was if he doesnt want insurance to send his body back home then he will be burried where I see fit. Then I asked her but what about his wishes. She said that if she had to pay he would be buried here. Interesting.

My husband wants to go back to Morocco also, therefore I asked about insurance and he his comment was very distrubing to me. I am trying to learn what is the custom for Islamic burial. Can someone point me to the guidelines.

NO I AM NOT TRYING TO KILL MY HUSBAND.

I am trying to some goals and afairs together and these are some things that I need to discuss.

What is it that is disturbing, and what do you want to know exactly?

I guess I am disturbed about that they dont think about the love ones they leave behind and they don't really look out for the future (I am not saying all). I am totally a babe as it comes to learning about Islam and the Muslim way of life. Yes I discussed allot with him husband before he came here but there are things that are discussed once you are trying to live as husband and wife.

disturbed is the wrong word I guess more shocked is a better word to use.

How don't they? I don't mean this to sound challenging (cannot convey tone), but I am curious what you mean.

I have thought about these things but never discussed them with my husband. None of it will do either of us any good at this point anyway. He's not here. I will brind it up the next time I talk to him online.

Limah

Shortly after Mohammed came to America, I lost a co-worker in a car accident. I asked Mohammed that IF that had happened to him where would he want to be buried. He said 'Jordan of course'. He said to leave those details to his male relatives here. And, no, it was not a subject he wanted to discuss any further.

Jackie

From my understanding they dont believe in life insurance or create wills. I do understand that those that can buy property and it gets passed on (not equally).

Can you give me some examples of how Islamic protect their families for the future?

I am trying to gain knowledge. I can only go by what someone tells me or what I may have read in passing.

I know some Americans dont plan for the future.

a real sign of the times in mena - when one has to put a disclaimer in her post to ward off attacks.
and don't blame you for putting that in, frndly1.

Life insurance: Thou Insurance has become an essential part of business throughout the world, in Islam any type of insurance (life, home, auto, etc) is haraam. Insurance inevitably involves an element of gharar, “uncertainty” which means for the everyday person...the sale of an “undefined” or unspecified product.

QUOTE

Wills: Many Muslims (Salafis) may refuse to accept wills (if there any direct descendants-sons and duaghters) but looking at: (2:180) "It has been enjoined upon you that when you approach death and you are leaving behind your personal property, make a testament according to law for your parents and others close to you. This has been enjoined upon Muttaqeen as a duty from Allah. (The distribution of left-over property shall take place after the provisions of the 'will' have been fulfilled (4:11)."

One may see that the Quran leaves wills and inhertiance as something very important for a Muslim (anyone really) to ponder before death.
The following verses of Surah Al-Maaidah (5th Chapter of the Quran) invite some more though:

QUOTE

(5:106-108) "O you who believe! When death approaches any of you, take witnesses amongst yourselves while making testament; two just men of your own (brethren); or others from outside, if you are journeying through the land and your own men are not available and the chance of death befalls you

Witnesses(2) are needed, of course and judges shall detain them (in the masjid) after prayers (since masjids are the court-rooms). The judges, imems or respected elders shall have them them both swear by Allah. Rough translations:

QUOTE

We wish not to take in this any worldly gains, even if the beneficiary be our near relative; we shall not hide evidence before Allah; if we do, we shall become censurable.

The distribution of the assets of the deceased (in all cases) shall take place after the fulfillment of the will and the payment of debts against the deceased. If the will does not cover the deceased assets or the deceased has not left a will, the distribution of the assets shall done,then their spouse comes first, cos of their mutual relationship is through matrimony and not by lineage.Then come the children and other family members.

QUOTE

If the deceased left no will or something has been left after the processing of the will, the distribution of this surplus property shall be according to verses (4:11-12).

. Allah Himself (Who knows all) has fixed their shares. It means that although the deceased had the knowledge as to whoever was more deserving (the reason, leaving a testament was made incumbent); but since the person could not leave a will or the will does not cover the all the assets, Allah, instead of leaving the matter to you, has Himself determined the shares.
Thes structure of inheritance amoung one's children is addressed in the chapter called Nisa (4th chapter of the Qurán) :"

QUOTE

As regards your children's (inheritance), to each boy a share equal to that of two girls, i.e. one girl = 1/3 and one boy = 2/3.

Scholars have agrued that is cos a male is responsible for the maintenance of the family, not the female. So the male is more need then the female to inherit. To each their own, to agrue this ....
In chapter 4 of the Quran, it further explains when a person has died leaving no dependents:

QUOTE

(4:12). "O Rasool! You are being asked to give further details. Tell them that Allah ordains:

If a person dies leaving no parents or children as heirs, the distribution of his property (wealth) shall be as follows:

o If the deceased is a male and has only one sister, her portion shall be half of his bequest;

o If there are two sisters (or more), their (combined) share shall be 2/3 (also see 4/11 for share in case of more than two sisters);

o If both the inheritors are brothers and sisters, the entire left-over property shall be theirs. The principle of "share of two females equal to share of one male" shall apply (4/11);

o If the deceased is a woman, the heir of her left-over property shall be her brother.

In the end, we all have to remember these are the limits laid down by Allah(swt) with which an Islamic State shall frame its by-laws remaining within these hints. "Limits" means the framework within which an Islamic State is legally authorised to make by-laws. These limits are abiding but the by-laws framed within these limits shall be tranfroming according to the constraints of our changing times.
And as far as what Peezy asked about owning property (or rather inhertining it) from your spouse in their native country.... I have talked about this quite abit with my husband. Since we both have inherited propertys from our parents. (mine not in a Muslims, no none of the Islamic laws were observed) We both have had difficulties due to not having a will in place to distrubute the assets. I was lucky more luckier then my husband, who had went throu a terrible 4 year court battle to gain all of his inhertience. In the end, of cos he lost the case... having to give up half of his inheritence, due to the fact his father never set up a will and his mother was left widowed and penniless. A very sorry plight for widowed women (in many countries including MENA where women have no voice) I am not really worried about inheriting anything from my husband, since I have my own and also have a profession where I could support myself and my children. Even so we have decided, due to our experiences and common sense that we will be having a last testament.

My husband had a hard time discussing that topic also. I think most people do.

I am not sure why because there are only 2 things (that I know of) that are certain you are born and you die.

I have had 2 co workers families that have been confronted with a member of their family will leave them (die, due to cancer) in less than a year and their family member can no longer work. I makes you stop and think.

Henia, Thanks for the information. I greatly appreciate it.

I think people define wills differently. 2/3 of a Muslim's estate is supposed to be dispensed according to Islamic inheritance laws. The other 1/3 is up to their choosing. Sunni thought is usually that it can only go to someone not already inheriting. Shia allow for this 1/3 to go to a person/people already inheriting. Or, they can let the entire estate be divided up according to Islamic inheritance laws. So a will in the sense that they are choosing what goes where, no. But there is this 1/3 to account for and that is often done in a will. In the United States, if a Muslim wants to follow Islamic inheritance laws, a will is absolutely necessary, because otherwise it will follow state laws, and this will obviously be different.

Women do inherit less according ot Islamic law, but male relatives are expected to take care of women. Now, in an imperfect world where this does not always happen, it does seem unfair that a woman's share is less.

There are different opinions on life insurance. Obviously, life insurance did not exist in the time of the Prophet, so these are ONLY opinions based on interpretation. Islamonline has something on the different views http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503543412 Recently I have been reading more and more about Islamic insurance that is becoming more commmonly available, including life insurance. The islamic insurances are usually referred to as "takaful".

Thanks for the link.

Now I have a questions from the link?

"These two conditions rule out regular fixed return life insurance because the value of the policy is the outcome of investment premiums at a compounded rate of interest, (while variable - return life is permissible if the funds are invested in the Shari'ah approved stocks or mutual funds). "


What are Shari'ah approved stocks and mutual funds? I thought interest/dividens are forbidden.

Something that didn't seem to come up, so far. Under Islamic law, a Muslim cannot inherit from a non-Muslim and a non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim, nt even if they're married to each other. So in Muslim countries, this may be a consideration for mixed couples to reseach.

Do you have reference material for us to read that talks about that? Interesting.

My fiance and I have discussed some of these issues but until we're married there's not so much to do about it except talk.

I did have a concern, as someone pointed out, that women don't get as much as men, and seeing as how I don't have any men to "take care of me" if my husband should die, it doesn't make sense for me to get less money. I will be the only one to support myself unless someone else from his family wants to "take me in" and we're living in Egypt at the time.
He agreed it didn't seem fair but pointed out that he could leave me money or property or whatever he wanted to specify in a will, and that it would be handled before the rest of the inheritance is handed out. (I hope I got that right, it's been a while since we talked about it)

I've also read about a Muslim inheriting from a non-Muslim and vice-versa. I was curious because my parents are not Muslim and yet their estate will be split between my brother and I. From what I read, and of course this could be wrong, you can take gifts from non-Muslims when they die. I don't know the exact rules in the difference between being in a will or some other way to make it okay, but if I have no Muslims in my family except for on my husbands side, it seems only fitting that I should have a chance to inherit some money since if/when my husband dies some of his money will go to his parents etc.

We don't have things finalized of course but we will take care of it when it becomes applicable.

first of all my husband doesnt have a million dollar policy and i can assure u he never will unless i pay for it because he is too cheap to pay for a policy. he has now a $10,000 policy thru work and i have another $5,000 that i buy for him thru my work. that is his only assets in the united states to date. if he were to die today then some of that money would be used to send his dead body back to syria for burial.

secondly he has more assests in syria then he does here. so trust me im sure his family would not send me a penny of it if he died. the value of his house and his life insurance over there (10,000) would go to them.

as i see it i would not even get a 1/4.

anyway im not muslim so i guess we would not be doing it the islamic way anyway.

I"m so confused and will go to bed after posting this.

So am I understanding right that when my parents die, even though I'm the designated administrator, I won't get a dime 'cause now I'm muslim??? I don't think that's right. Maybe if we were living in Egypt or something but in the US I don't think any of these laws apply, right?

As far as flying the body back to the home country- I am totally confused on this, but Amed seems to think that the Algerian government would take care of the costs of this. I'm skeptical of this. Does anyone know how that works in ME/NA countries? I'm sure each country is different, but I've never heard of the home country flying back the body for burial free of charge.

Well, you're still Muslim but since your parents aren't and you haven't told them of how it works, I *guess* it would be up to you to refuse the money if that's what you were supposed to do. I don't think it matters where you live. You're just as Muslim in the US as you are in Egypt.
Like I stated in my post, I *think* you can take money if it's done in a certain way, however I'm not certain about that.

Melly,

From what you know, does that apply to *any* gift from a non-muslim, or strictly inheritance?

I really am not sure. I have a friend who is a very "strict" Muslim and she will accept gifts from others (like Christmas or birthday or whatever) but will only give gifts to people at Eid.
As far as I'm aware it's okay to take gifts from people, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer for sure.

I am not an expert on the inheritance laws by any stretch of the immagination, but Islam provides a total way of life. All the pieces have to fit together right? So how can the inheritance laws tell you as a converted Muslim not to touch the inhertiance of your parents simply because they never converted? If marriage is allowed between Muslims and people of the book, then how does this inconsistence work?

What I have noticed in studying the evolution of fiqh (law) is that some later scholars seem to stress the clear separation between muslim and non-muslims perferring to keep people of the book closer to non-muslims than muslims. It never made sense to me. A non-muslim spouse or a muslim convert still has a family and can never discount this family. The muslim spouse must also embrace this family.

sign- its too early to arge this. hope it made sense

Your religion has nothing to do with this. The question is, does your husband want to create a will in the US so that his property in the US is divided per islamic inheritence laws upon his death? You don't have to be muslim for him to create a will as he chooses.

Ok three questions,

1. If your SO makes a will in the US will that be accepted in the SOs country too?

2. What about health insurance? Is it haraam to have health insurance if it's haraam to have life insurance?

3. What happens if the SO doesn't have any living relatives except the wife? Does the wife recieve all of the inheritence?

the question was...islamic or not. so i guess the answer is not. cuz he dont care where his assets go after death. he was leaving them all too me but i told him...what is in syria will go to his family and what he has here will go to me and he said "as u like"

Janine, I believe for #2 that life insurance and health insurance are quite different. Health insurance is to cover one while they're alive (medical bills etc.) and life insurance is to have a policy in order to help the family pay for funeral and living expenses after someone is deceased. As far as I know health insurance is not haram, I know that Hicham's family has it in Morocco.

1. No, it will not be accepted anywhere but the US, especially in an islamic country where sharia serves as inheritence law. The point is not if it will be accepted in Morocco, for example, the point is, does your husband want his estate divided in the US as it would have to be done in Morocco, via islamic inheritence law?
2. Health insurance is acceptable in certain forms, you have to read up on this.
3. Theoretically, yes, but this would mean there are no cousins, uncles, even once or twice removed. It seems a stretch there would be no one, but maybe.