So, I'm an advocate of trusting your partner...you proposed, so you must have developed some pretty strong feelings.
But, I'm also a realist and see that a lot of folks find heartache down the road. That's why I believe, that even with a pure heart filled with love for your partner, there should be prudent steps you can take to protect yourself in the case of being dupped...God forbid. I sort of think of it as marital insurance...kinda like car insurance. We don't expect to total our car after we buy it, but we know things can happen...things can go wrong, so we insure them to minimize the damage should things go awry.
Given that, what type of marital insurance might we employ? Here's a few thoughts...please add yours:
1) Prenuptial Agreement - Especially if you have any property of significant value. Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
2) Separate Bank Accounts - Might be prudent to maintain at least one separate bank account at least for the first couple years.
3) Keep the Deed in Your Name - If you already own a home, you might consider keeping it in just your name.
4) Minimize Joint Credit Accounts - The fewer the shared accounts, the less complicated and potentially damaging the outcome will be if things don't go well.
5) Involve Someone - Allow a loved-one, family member or friend, to be actively involved in your life and witness the type of relationship you have with your spouse. I offer this one because it appears that a lot of the spouses who are abusing the system follow up with claims of abuse in order to maximize exploitation. If you have people who have seen how you relate to one another, it may help should that terrible scenario ever surface.
Now for my disclaimer: Some might say that this approach is too restrictive, controlling, unloving and a recipe for disaster. They may even suggest that it would actually BUILD distrust. I don't argue that point...to each his own. I'm just offering ideas on how one might protect themself from potential disaster. If you feel any of the ideas might work for you, I'd suggest explaining it to your fiancee and getting their input.
Okay...fire away with the comments...good and bad.
Full Version: Steps to protect yourself
VisaJourney.com > General Family Based Immigration Topics > Effects of Major Family Changes on Immigration Benefits
Dave:
I think this is definitely a topic that we all should think about and discuss with our loved ones, even though we might not like it. And it is not only with/for couples where one is an immigrant. This is the way people should walk into marriage, with their eyes wide open, because nothing is certain in this world, and nothing lasts for ever (as much as we hope it does - and Im not talking about people being duped, or about cheating... it could be simply death), and it might sound cynical, but finances are a critical part of marriage.
The only recommendation I have, is that you discuss this in advance with your loved ones, dont drop the bomb a few days before them coming, or like someone did here, drop it close to the 90 days expiration after someone left their entire life behind.
Good luck!
I think this is definitely a topic that we all should think about and discuss with our loved ones, even though we might not like it. And it is not only with/for couples where one is an immigrant. This is the way people should walk into marriage, with their eyes wide open, because nothing is certain in this world, and nothing lasts for ever (as much as we hope it does - and Im not talking about people being duped, or about cheating... it could be simply death), and it might sound cynical, but finances are a critical part of marriage.
The only recommendation I have, is that you discuss this in advance with your loved ones, dont drop the bomb a few days before them coming, or like someone did here, drop it close to the 90 days expiration after someone left their entire life behind.
Good luck!
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 11:38 AM) 
So, I'm an advocate of trusting your partner...you proposed, so you must have developed some pretty strong feelings.
But, I'm also a realist and see that a lot of folks find heartache down the road. That's why I believe, that even with a pure heart filled with love for your partner, there should be prudent steps you can take to protect yourself in the case of being dupped...God forbid. I sort of think of it as marital insurance...kinda like car insurance. We don't expect to total our car after we buy it, but we know things can happen...things can go wrong, so we insure them to minimize the damage should things go awry.
Given that, what type of marital insurance might we employ? Here's a few thoughts...please add yours:
1) Prenuptial Agreement - Especially if you have any property of significant value. Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
2) Separate Bank Accounts - Might be prudent to maintain at least one separate bank account at least for the first couple years.
3) Keep the Deed in Your Name - If you already own a home, you might consider keeping it in just your name.
4) Minimize Joint Credit Accounts - The fewer the shared accounts, the less complicated and potentially damaging the outcome will be if things don't go well.
5) Involve Someone - Allow a loved-one, family member or friend, to be actively involved in your life and witness the type of relationship you have with your spouse. I offer this one because it appears that a lot of the spouses who are abusing the system follow up with claims of abuse in order to maximize exploitation. If you have people who have seen how you relate to one another, it may help should that terrible scenario ever surface.
Now for my disclaimer: Some might say that this approach is too restrictive, controlling, unloving and a recipe for disaster. They may even suggest that it would actually BUILD distrust. I don't argue that point...to each his own. I'm just offering ideas on how one might protect themself from potential disaster. If you feel any of the ideas might work for you, I'd suggest explaining it to your fiancee and getting their input.
Okay...fire away with the comments...good and bad.
But, I'm also a realist and see that a lot of folks find heartache down the road. That's why I believe, that even with a pure heart filled with love for your partner, there should be prudent steps you can take to protect yourself in the case of being dupped...God forbid. I sort of think of it as marital insurance...kinda like car insurance. We don't expect to total our car after we buy it, but we know things can happen...things can go wrong, so we insure them to minimize the damage should things go awry.
Given that, what type of marital insurance might we employ? Here's a few thoughts...please add yours:
1) Prenuptial Agreement - Especially if you have any property of significant value. Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
2) Separate Bank Accounts - Might be prudent to maintain at least one separate bank account at least for the first couple years.
3) Keep the Deed in Your Name - If you already own a home, you might consider keeping it in just your name.
4) Minimize Joint Credit Accounts - The fewer the shared accounts, the less complicated and potentially damaging the outcome will be if things don't go well.
5) Involve Someone - Allow a loved-one, family member or friend, to be actively involved in your life and witness the type of relationship you have with your spouse. I offer this one because it appears that a lot of the spouses who are abusing the system follow up with claims of abuse in order to maximize exploitation. If you have people who have seen how you relate to one another, it may help should that terrible scenario ever surface.
Now for my disclaimer: Some might say that this approach is too restrictive, controlling, unloving and a recipe for disaster. They may even suggest that it would actually BUILD distrust. I don't argue that point...to each his own. I'm just offering ideas on how one might protect themself from potential disaster. If you feel any of the ideas might work for you, I'd suggest explaining it to your fiancee and getting their input.
Okay...fire away with the comments...good and bad.
You may feel the need to temper this list when you review what they look for in documentation for the AOS interview. Co-mingling of finances is a big one to establish validity of the marriage (like joint bank accounts, both your names on the lease/deed/title, bills coming in both names).
It's important to be careful, yes. But every relationship has risks and trust is what should be laid from the onset. If you're not sure, communicate and evaluate. More than once.
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 27 2006, 12:16 PM)
The only recommendation I have, is that you discuss this in advance with your loved ones, dont drop the bomb a few days before them coming, or like someone did here, drop it close to the 90 days expiration after someone left their entire life behind.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I remember that one. That was not pretty.
I agree with all of those items and think it's very good advice. As long as you have enough to prove co-mingled finances at AOS, it's all good. I also like the idea of one separate bank account - we've been talking about financial issues lately and it's another smart thing to do IMO.
QUOTE(ceriserose @ Dec 27 2006, 03:20 PM)
You may feel the need to temper this list when you review what they look for in documentation for the AOS interview. Co-mingling of finances is a big one to establish validity of the marriage (like joint bank accounts, both your names on the lease/deed/title, bills coming in both names).
It's important to be careful, yes. But every relationship has risks and trust is what should be laid from the onset. If you're not sure, communicate and evaluate. More than once.
I remember that one. That was not pretty.
It's important to be careful, yes. But every relationship has risks and trust is what should be laid from the onset. If you're not sure, communicate and evaluate. More than once.
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 27 2006, 12:16 PM)
The only recommendation I have, is that you discuss this in advance with your loved ones, dont drop the bomb a few days before them coming, or like someone did here, drop it close to the 90 days expiration after someone left their entire life behind.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I remember that one. That was not pretty.
Well... it is true. You definitely need some documentation to prove your relationship (and no, tapes are not allowed!..
- believe me I thought about it!!)But you could use insurance policies instead of changing the deed, and you can open an account for the home expenses, but keep the rest of your stuff on your name, join a gym, buy a car, that kinda stuff proves your relationship also. I definitely recommend opening the home account and putting the money for the home expenses on it, so when you bring those statements to the interview, they'll see both your names and the names of the utilities companies also. As far as the bills, you will soon find out that it is almost impossible to get the name of the immigrant on the bills (until said immigrant has his/her green card).
Again, it is not a bad train of thought, just dont make it so hard that it sounds like you're not trusting your partner. (Oh, and BTW I am the immigrant, just so people dont get all fired up about USC mistreating their alien fiance(e)s.
Good thoughts everyone...I hadn't thought about the proof of co-mingling issue, but I did mean to have at least ONE separate account. I guess it is all about balance and what both parties are comfortable with. I am shocked that we haven't had any nay-sayers yet. Thought this might become a heated topic.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for your thoughts.
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 27 2006, 12:31 PM)
QUOTE(ceriserose @ Dec 27 2006, 03:20 PM)
You may feel the need to temper this list when you review what they look for in documentation for the AOS interview. Co-mingling of finances is a big one to establish validity of the marriage (like joint bank accounts, both your names on the lease/deed/title, bills coming in both names).
It's important to be careful, yes. But every relationship has risks and trust is what should be laid from the onset. If you're not sure, communicate and evaluate. More than once.
I remember that one. That was not pretty.
It's important to be careful, yes. But every relationship has risks and trust is what should be laid from the onset. If you're not sure, communicate and evaluate. More than once.
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 27 2006, 12:16 PM)
The only recommendation I have, is that you discuss this in advance with your loved ones, dont drop the bomb a few days before them coming, or like someone did here, drop it close to the 90 days expiration after someone left their entire life behind.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I remember that one. That was not pretty.
Well... it is true. You definitely need some documentation to prove your relationship (and no, tapes are not allowed!..
- believe me I thought about it!!)But you could use insurance policies instead of changing the deed, and you can open an account for the home expenses, but keep the rest of your stuff on your name, join a gym, buy a car, that kinda stuff proves your relationship also. I definitely recommend opening the home account and putting the money for the home expenses on it, so when you bring those statements to the interview, they'll see both your names and the names of the utilities companies also. As far as the bills, you will soon find out that it is almost impossible to get the name of the immigrant on the bills (until said immigrant has his/her green card).
Again, it is not a bad train of thought, just dont make it so hard that it sounds like you're not trusting your partner. (Oh, and BTW I am the immigrant, just so people dont get all fired up about USC mistreating their alien fiance(e)s.
Yes, I wasn't disparaging his list...just letting him know in case he was very strict with the divide. It would be a shame for the AOS to go badly or have them scrambling at the last minute because nothing was combined at all.
It is important to be practical. Life isn't all hearts, flowers and romance. That's when the real stuff begins.
ETA: And I'm the immigrant and was able to be added to the utlities no problem before green card. I guess it just depends on with whom you're dealing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 03:38 PM)
So, I'm an advocate of trusting your partner...you proposed, so you must have developed some pretty strong feelings.
But, I'm also a realist and see that a lot of folks find heartache down the road. That's why I believe, that even with a pure heart filled with love for your partner, there should be prudent steps you can take to protect yourself in the case of being dupped...God forbid. I sort of think of it as marital insurance...kinda like car insurance. We don't expect to total our car after we buy it, but we know things can happen...things can go wrong, so we insure them to minimize the damage should things go awry.
Given that, what type of marital insurance might we employ? Here's a few thoughts...please add yours:
1) Prenuptial Agreement - Especially if you have any property of significant value. Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
2) Separate Bank Accounts - Might be prudent to maintain at least one separate bank account at least for the first couple years.
3) Keep the Deed in Your Name - If you already own a home, you might consider keeping it in just your name.
4) Minimize Joint Credit Accounts - The fewer the shared accounts, the less complicated and potentially damaging the outcome will be if things don't go well.
5) Involve Someone - Allow a loved-one, family member or friend, to be actively involved in your life and witness the type of relationship you have with your spouse. I offer this one because it appears that a lot of the spouses who are abusing the system follow up with claims of abuse in order to maximize exploitation. If you have people who have seen how you relate to one another, it may help should that terrible scenario ever surface.
Now for my disclaimer: Some might say that this approach is too restrictive, controlling, unloving and a recipe for disaster. They may even suggest that it would actually BUILD distrust. I don't argue that point...to each his own. I'm just offering ideas on how one might protect themself from potential disaster. If you feel any of the ideas might work for you, I'd suggest explaining it to your fiancee and getting their input.
Okay...fire away with the comments...good and bad.
But, I'm also a realist and see that a lot of folks find heartache down the road. That's why I believe, that even with a pure heart filled with love for your partner, there should be prudent steps you can take to protect yourself in the case of being dupped...God forbid. I sort of think of it as marital insurance...kinda like car insurance. We don't expect to total our car after we buy it, but we know things can happen...things can go wrong, so we insure them to minimize the damage should things go awry.
Given that, what type of marital insurance might we employ? Here's a few thoughts...please add yours:
1) Prenuptial Agreement - Especially if you have any property of significant value. Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
2) Separate Bank Accounts - Might be prudent to maintain at least one separate bank account at least for the first couple years.
3) Keep the Deed in Your Name - If you already own a home, you might consider keeping it in just your name.
4) Minimize Joint Credit Accounts - The fewer the shared accounts, the less complicated and potentially damaging the outcome will be if things don't go well.
5) Involve Someone - Allow a loved-one, family member or friend, to be actively involved in your life and witness the type of relationship you have with your spouse. I offer this one because it appears that a lot of the spouses who are abusing the system follow up with claims of abuse in order to maximize exploitation. If you have people who have seen how you relate to one another, it may help should that terrible scenario ever surface.
Now for my disclaimer: Some might say that this approach is too restrictive, controlling, unloving and a recipe for disaster. They may even suggest that it would actually BUILD distrust. I don't argue that point...to each his own. I'm just offering ideas on how one might protect themself from potential disaster. If you feel any of the ideas might work for you, I'd suggest explaining it to your fiancee and getting their input.
Okay...fire away with the comments...good and bad.
QUOTE(ceriserose @ Dec 27 2006, 03:36 PM)
ETA: And I'm the immigrant and was able to be added to the utlities no problem before green card. I guess it just depends on with whom you're dealing.
I didnt think you were disparaging his list, I do agree with you. I just wanted to let him know that there were other things that could prove his relationship without using the deed to a home.
And you're also right about being practical, most of us have a long distance relationship, where seeing each other is always kind of a 'vacation', so we dont get a real sense of reality until we're here, and if you're naive enough to think that your life is going to be just 'vacation' then when you come here, reality hits you like a ton of bricks.
I was not able to put my name in any of the utilities when I got here, and then never tried again until after the GC (and buying a home). Actually at the interview, Rob asked the lady, do you know how hard it is to put her name on any of the utilities, and the lady just smiled at us and said that she understood.
I am glad this topic was brought up by a couple still in love (as opposed to couples that are on the verge of breaking) thinking about constructing a future together, and getting things straight before they embark in this venture, that can be really stressing.
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 12:36 PM)
Good thoughts everyone...I hadn't thought about the proof of co-mingling issue, but I did mean to have at least ONE separate account. I guess it is all about balance and what both parties are comfortable with. I am shocked that we haven't had any nay-sayers yet. Thought this might become a heated topic.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Just wait...patience grasshopper. If I know VJ, it will.
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 27 2006, 12:47 PM)
QUOTE(ceriserose @ Dec 27 2006, 03:36 PM)
ETA: And I'm the immigrant and was able to be added to the utlities no problem before green card. I guess it just depends on with whom you're dealing.
I didnt think you were disparaging his list, I do agree with you. I just wanted to let him know that there were other things that could prove his relationship without using the deed to a home.
And you're also right about being practical, most of us have a long distance relationship, where seeing each other is always kind of a 'vacation', so we dont get a real sense of reality until we're here, and if you're naive enough to think that your life is going to be just 'vacation' then when you come here, reality hits you like a ton of bricks.
I was not able to put my name in any of the utilities when I got here, and then never tried again until after the GC (and buying a home). Actually at the interview, Rob asked the lady, do you know how hard it is to put her name on any of the utilities, and the lady just smiled at us and said that she understood.
I am glad this topic was brought up by a couple still in love (as opposed to couples that are on the verge of breaking) thinking about constructing a future together, and getting things straight before they embark in this venture, that can be really stressing.
Yup, when the vacation is over, day to day can be a great big learning curve.
But fun!
I think the original precautions smack of a defeatist attitude, especially at the outset of a marital relationship. Does trust not matter anymore?
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
daveandlirio,
The I-864 is a contract between the Sponsor and the US government. It is outside the realm of a divorce court, divorce has no effect on it.
Yodrak
The I-864 is a contract between the Sponsor and the US government. It is outside the realm of a divorce court, divorce has no effect on it.
Yodrak
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 02:38 PM)
...... Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
.....
.....
QUOTE(William33 @ Dec 27 2006, 03:41 PM)
I think the original precautions smack of a defeatist attitude, especially at the outset of a marital relationship. Does trust not matter anymore?
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
Totally agree with William
QUOTE(E&K @ Dec 27 2006, 08:03 PM)
QUOTE(William33 @ Dec 27 2006, 03:41 PM)
I think the original precautions smack of a defeatist attitude, especially at the outset of a marital relationship. Does trust not matter anymore?
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
I went in 100%, as did my wife. No restrictions, no agreements, no BS. However, we lived together for a long time. For those who really don't know their SO, perhaps that is different.
If one has this much doubt, this early on, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your relationship.
Totally agree with William
Really? I don't think so. Nothing he posted was super strong - just things to think about. I like the idea of a pre-nup to protect BOTH of us since we both own property. I like the idea of separate accounts, not because I don't want to co-mingle money but because it's easier for me to have a "working" account for everyday bills and separate savings accounts that we each already have - not because I want to mix our money. What's mine is his and vice versa but practically speaking, it works well for us. When it comes to deeds, I'd rather keep them separate for now mostly because it's one less thing to deal with. But at the same time, we'll change our beneficiaries on our retirement accounts right away and each draw up new wills.
I guess it comes down to individual comfort levels about money. But I don't think any of these suggestions are precautions or defeatist, at least not in our case. Just makes things easier for us.
Double post - cancel
Kit,
You are talking about organizational issues that make perfect sense. The OP was speaking of protection of individual assets, as if failure was a considerable risk.
The self preservation issue is what I was addressing. If one feels compelled to self-preserve assets in a marriage, consider being single and dating. Otherwise, make the right choice in a mate, with particular respect to a foreigner requiring sponsorship.
You are talking about organizational issues that make perfect sense. The OP was speaking of protection of individual assets, as if failure was a considerable risk.
The self preservation issue is what I was addressing. If one feels compelled to self-preserve assets in a marriage, consider being single and dating. Otherwise, make the right choice in a mate, with particular respect to a foreigner requiring sponsorship.
QUOTE(kitkat1 @ Dec 27 2006, 08:29 PM)
Really? I don't think so. Nothing he posted was super strong - just things to think about. I like the idea of a pre-nup to protect BOTH of us since we both own property. I like the idea of separate accounts, not because I don't want to co-mingle money but because it's easier for me to have a "working" account for everyday bills and separate savings accounts that we each already have - not because I want to mix our money. What's mine is his and vice versa but practically speaking, it works well for us. When it comes to deeds, I'd rather keep them separate for now mostly because it's one less thing to deal with. But at the same time, we'll change our beneficiaries on our retirement accounts right away and each draw up new wills.
I guess it comes down to individual comfort levels about money. But I don't think any of these suggestions are precautions or defeatist, at least not in our case. Just makes things easier for us.
I guess it comes down to individual comfort levels about money. But I don't think any of these suggestions are precautions or defeatist, at least not in our case. Just makes things easier for us.
I'd suggest not even bothering to bring your fiancee to the US - just get a pet dog and have complete control.
deleted
QUOTE(jane2005 @ Dec 28 2006, 04:35 AM)
I'd suggest not even bothering to bring your fiancee to the US - just get a pet dog and have complete control.
Hi, Jane. (I *swear* I'm not picking at you tonight after my last post on not caring about people's toilet habits in your thread!!!)
Anyway, I don't think the OP is suggesting that his/her partner is controlled in the relationship. It's about protection. Craig & I never considered anything like a prenup,etc. either, but that's because neither of us *had* anything substantial!! I'm always torn on this issue, because I feel (and I realize most everyone here feels that way!) that Craig & I knew one another well before we got together..he lived here 3 months, I visited, we were in "constant" contact for months, etc. BUT not everyone has had the luxury of all that time together,on the phone, computer and the like. Even if I did have a lot of possessions, I probably wouldn't have done a prenup. Possibly to my detriment later down the line. (Though I still don't think that now!) The feelings can be just as deep, but just read this forum and you'll see how people get duped everyday, through no fault of their own. It stinks, but it happens. I can surely understand how someone with sizable assets may want to protect themselves...at the *very* least for a couple/few years until they can see how the relationship has progressed...then sometime in the future they may wish to reevaluate the protections they put in place. JMO. M.
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 03:36 PM)
Thought this might become a heated topic.
Is that why you posted it?
QUOTE(jane2005 @ Dec 28 2006, 05:35 AM)
I'd suggest not even bothering to bring your fiancee to the US - just get a pet dog and have complete control.
I agree with jane.Just buy a dog.You think about how to protect yourself for the "risk".But what about the risk of the fiance/e,who leaves everything she/he has and knows,job,parents,friends,country,his/hers whole LIFE to be with you?You think of how to protect your money ,but how can fiance/e protect her/his LIFE?Don't you think he/she takes his/her own risks,many times even greater then a petitioner?
QUOTE(Yodrak @ Dec 27 2006, 05:18 PM)
daveandlirio,
The I-864 is a contract between the Sponsor and the US government. It is outside the realm of a divorce court, divorce has no effect on it.
Yodrak
The I-864 is a contract between the Sponsor and the US government. It is outside the realm of a divorce court, divorce has no effect on it.
Yodrak
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 02:38 PM)
...... Does anyone know if you can legally include the dissolution of the AOS in the case of divorce that is other than the result of abuse by the USC?
.....
.....
This, definitely. I'm no lawyer, but the I-864 is not a promise to the spouse, but a promise to the government and other tax payers that the immigrant won't become a burden. Since the contract isn't between the spouses, I'm not confident that a second contract nullfying the old contract would be enforceable.
QUOTE(rebeccajo @ Dec 28 2006, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 03:36 PM)
Thought this might become a heated topic.
Is that why you posted it?
Rebecca, no wonder you are my VJ sensai.
Frankly…
I don’t understand why people are so set against prenuptial agreements or financial protection. It is such an important topic, and not because people get duped. This is the way people should enter relationships, being totally honest and up front with their concerns, being financial or emotional. When a person CHOOSES to leave their country, they are assuming a risk, yes. But I would presume that this person has weighed thoroughly the pros and cons of moving to another country and leaving EVERYTHING behind, and I would also presume that this person has at least given some thought about the what ifs… what if it doesn’t work? What if I don’t like it there? What if I miss my family and my country so much? Do I love him so much that is it worth leaving all behind? Does he love me so much that it’s worthy of me making this sacrifice? It is a risk, and the only person responsible for taking it is the intending immigrant, so let’s not blame a guilt trip on petitioners.
Again, I am the immigrant, and even though we did not have a prenup, finances were discussed. I was a very independent with my finances, I did not have to account for any of my expenses to any one, and I did not feel like starting to do it (it just felt awkward). We took measures in order for both of us to be comfortable with the decision. We have joint accounts, but we also maintain individual accounts, and we make our own decisions when investing our own money, and we share the decisions when investing our common monies.
I don’t think the OP meant that he didn’t want to share at all with his fiancée, I think he just wanted to feel safe and protect himself, and that I see as perfectly normal.
I don’t understand why people are so set against prenuptial agreements or financial protection. It is such an important topic, and not because people get duped. This is the way people should enter relationships, being totally honest and up front with their concerns, being financial or emotional. When a person CHOOSES to leave their country, they are assuming a risk, yes. But I would presume that this person has weighed thoroughly the pros and cons of moving to another country and leaving EVERYTHING behind, and I would also presume that this person has at least given some thought about the what ifs… what if it doesn’t work? What if I don’t like it there? What if I miss my family and my country so much? Do I love him so much that is it worth leaving all behind? Does he love me so much that it’s worthy of me making this sacrifice? It is a risk, and the only person responsible for taking it is the intending immigrant, so let’s not blame a guilt trip on petitioners.
Again, I am the immigrant, and even though we did not have a prenup, finances were discussed. I was a very independent with my finances, I did not have to account for any of my expenses to any one, and I did not feel like starting to do it (it just felt awkward). We took measures in order for both of us to be comfortable with the decision. We have joint accounts, but we also maintain individual accounts, and we make our own decisions when investing our own money, and we share the decisions when investing our common monies.
I don’t think the OP meant that he didn’t want to share at all with his fiancée, I think he just wanted to feel safe and protect himself, and that I see as perfectly normal.
Although marriage is about love and committment it is also a legally binding CONTRACT you have to realistic about certain things. There is noting wrong with taking precautions. I know plenty married couples who have a separate bank account doesn't mean you don't trust your spouse or you are being shady but you never know what will happen in the future and that separate savings account may be your saving grace. You having a prenup can stop you from being homeless or staying on your mom's couch. It isn't about controlling someone like a dog it is about preparing for a a future that could possibly not be that bright.
To each, his/her own.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
QUOTE(William33 @ Dec 28 2006, 09:27 PM)
To each, his/her own.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
William33,
Don't make the mistake of thinking that prenuptial agreements only restrict access to assets for one party. Sometimes, dependent upon how they are structured, a prenup can offer assets to one party that might otherwise not be part of the distribution by a local court.
QUOTE(diadromous mermaid @ Dec 29 2006, 07:44 AM)
QUOTE(William33 @ Dec 28 2006, 09:27 PM)
To each, his/her own.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
William33,
Don't make the mistake of thinking that prenuptial agreements only restrict access to assets for one party. Sometimes, dependent upon how they are structured, a prenup can offer assets to one party that might otherwise not be part of the distribution by a local court.
Money is not all that is important in life, and that I believe we all know. But money give you security, and money gives you independence. And Im sorry, but we’ve heard enough stories about battered wives, about controlling husbands, and so many other nasty things that have happened to the most loving couples, those you can never imagine would do things like that.
I came to this country because I fell in love with a man, and I was certain I wanted to be with him, and that’s why I made the choice, and took the risk to leave ABSOLUTELY everything behind to come here and be with him, and I have not regretted it one bit (just in case you are wondering). But talking about money, and settling certain things before hand, gave me security and assurance that in the possibility of things not working out, I would still have be financially independent to at least have the money to buy a ticket to go home. Talking about money and all other topics that aren’t as nice BEFORE making the decision of coming here, made the decision making process easier.
I don’t think I settled the future of my relationship by talking about the what ifs. I was taking a risk and I was entitled to have doubts, and in grown up and mature relationships that’s what you do, you TALK and COMMUNICATE the good and the bad, cause honey, just a new’s break… life is not all peaches and creams… and financial stress is among the first causes of divorce in these times. SO let’s talk again in 5-10 years and see where we are… I hope you are still with your SO and that by avoiding talking about defeatists topics hasn’t taken a toll in your relationship.
I understand that he is worried about potential fraud - but I think this guy has carried it to extremes.
Friend/relative wathcing and monitoring interactions with your husband? WTF is this. What a way to start a new marriage.
He wants to keep her off of all his assets (and guess what, she's giving up her life to move her, chances are she won't have an income of her own for sometime).
I certainly hope he GIVES her a nice allowence while she tows the line.
He wants to know if he can void the Affidavit of Support obligations if things don't work out. I think that is cheap and chintzy!!
Maybe it's because of where I am from- but I don't feel like a second class citizen here. I am not "dying" to get a green card and if my USC hubby was this cheap and concerned about me not getting a dime if we broke up, I would not have bothered to marry him in the first place.
If he's that worried about fraud that he is gonna treat her this way- he shouldn't get married.
This is not only about protection - it's extreme enough to show that he wants to CONTROL the relationship from the get go.
Friend/relative wathcing and monitoring interactions with your husband? WTF is this. What a way to start a new marriage.
He wants to keep her off of all his assets (and guess what, she's giving up her life to move her, chances are she won't have an income of her own for sometime).
I certainly hope he GIVES her a nice allowence while she tows the line.
He wants to know if he can void the Affidavit of Support obligations if things don't work out. I think that is cheap and chintzy!!
Maybe it's because of where I am from- but I don't feel like a second class citizen here. I am not "dying" to get a green card and if my USC hubby was this cheap and concerned about me not getting a dime if we broke up, I would not have bothered to marry him in the first place.
If he's that worried about fraud that he is gonna treat her this way- he shouldn't get married.
This is not only about protection - it's extreme enough to show that he wants to CONTROL the relationship from the get go.
Dave likes to make lists, that's ok that works for some people. I usually make grocery lists however and not lists reminding me hot to treat my husband.
QUOTE
Money is not all that is important in life, and that I believe we all know. But money give you security, and money gives you independence. And Im sorry, but we’ve heard enough stories about battered wives, about controlling husbands, and so many other nasty things that have happened to the most loving couples, those you can never imagine would do things like that.
I came to this country because I fell in love with a man, and I was certain I wanted to be with him, and that’s why I made the choice, and took the risk to leave ABSOLUTELY everything behind to come here and be with him, and I have not regretted it one bit (just in case you are wondering). But talking about money, and settling certain things before hand, gave me security and assurance that in the possibility of things not working out, I would still have be financially independent to at least have the money to buy a ticket to go home. Talking about money and all other topics that aren’t as nice BEFORE making the decision of coming here, made the decision making process easier.
I don’t think I settled the future of my relationship by talking about the what ifs. I was taking a risk and I was entitled to have doubts, and in grown up and mature relationships that’s what you do, you TALK and COMMUNICATE the good and the bad, cause honey, just a new’s break… life is not all peaches and creams… and financial stress is among the first causes of divorce in these times. SO let’s talk again in 5-10 years and see where we are… I hope you are still with your SO and that by avoiding talking about defeatists topics hasn’t taken a toll in your relationship.
<br>I came to this country because I fell in love with a man, and I was certain I wanted to be with him, and that’s why I made the choice, and took the risk to leave ABSOLUTELY everything behind to come here and be with him, and I have not regretted it one bit (just in case you are wondering). But talking about money, and settling certain things before hand, gave me security and assurance that in the possibility of things not working out, I would still have be financially independent to at least have the money to buy a ticket to go home. Talking about money and all other topics that aren’t as nice BEFORE making the decision of coming here, made the decision making process easier.
I don’t think I settled the future of my relationship by talking about the what ifs. I was taking a risk and I was entitled to have doubts, and in grown up and mature relationships that’s what you do, you TALK and COMMUNICATE the good and the bad, cause honey, just a new’s break… life is not all peaches and creams… and financial stress is among the first causes of divorce in these times. SO let’s talk again in 5-10 years and see where we are… I hope you are still with your SO and that by avoiding talking about defeatists topics hasn’t taken a toll in your relationship.
rob&ana, you make perfect sense to me. Thanks for your viewpoint(s).
kontumdiary
QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 29 2006, 07:39 AM)
QUOTE(diadromous mermaid @ Dec 29 2006, 07:44 AM)
QUOTE(William33 @ Dec 28 2006, 09:27 PM)
To each, his/her own.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
Bottom line, mature marriage decisions are about trust. If you are contemplating these issues, you have some introspective searching to do.
If money is that freaking important in your life, don't get married. Otherwise, consider that you are making the wrong choice.
Let's chat again in 5-10 years, those that are 100% sure about their SO will prevail.
If money issues are in the forefront, your relationship will likely fail. He11, you are already planning for it.
William33,
Don't make the mistake of thinking that prenuptial agreements only restrict access to assets for one party. Sometimes, dependent upon how they are structured, a prenup can offer assets to one party that might otherwise not be part of the distribution by a local court.
Money is not all that is important in life, and that I believe we all know. But money give you security, and money gives you independence. And Im sorry, but we’ve heard enough stories about battered wives, about controlling husbands, and so many other nasty things that have happened to the most loving couples, those you can never imagine would do things like that.
I came to this country because I fell in love with a man, and I was certain I wanted to be with him, and that’s why I made the choice, and took the risk to leave ABSOLUTELY everything behind to come here and be with him, and I have not regretted it one bit (just in case you are wondering). But talking about money, and settling certain things before hand, gave me security and assurance that in the possibility of things not working out, I would still have be financially independent to at least have the money to buy a ticket to go home. Talking about money and all other topics that aren’t as nice BEFORE making the decision of coming here, made the decision making process easier.
I don’t think I settled the future of my relationship by talking about the what ifs. I was taking a risk and I was entitled to have doubts, and in grown up and mature relationships that’s what you do, you TALK and COMMUNICATE the good and the bad, cause honey, just a new’s break… life is not all peaches and creams… and financial stress is among the first causes of divorce in these times. SO let’s talk again in 5-10 years and see where we are… I hope you are still with your SO and that by avoiding talking about defeatists topics hasn’t taken a toll in your relationship.
QUOTE(daveandlirio @ Dec 27 2006, 12:36 PM)
Good thoughts everyone...I hadn't thought about the proof of co-mingling issue, but I did mean to have at least ONE separate account. I guess it is all about balance and what both parties are comfortable with. I am shocked that we haven't had any nay-sayers yet. Thought this might become a heated topic.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I thought the one about allowing someone to be a close part of your life was great. I have seen several people claiming abuse on this board alone. I think it's a shame and people should be held accountable for their fraud.
Much depends upon the marriage law in your state. In my state, assets, for the most part, assets that one has prior to the marriage remains with that person if divorcing.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
Well, this is an interesting thread, and in my view an important topic.
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
FYI, my fiance and I will be putting everything together that makes practical sense (i.e, if it creates a convenience and doesn't cost too much for that convenience) because keeping it apart doesn't add any value or protection if that is what some of you are thinking.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
In fact, I have always thought an interesting opener when meeting someone you may be interested in was "so if you ever got married would you sign a PN?" and if the answer is no then it would be on to the next person. I never used this though!
*** I AM NOT A LAWYER ***
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
FYI, my fiance and I will be putting everything together that makes practical sense (i.e, if it creates a convenience and doesn't cost too much for that convenience) because keeping it apart doesn't add any value or protection if that is what some of you are thinking.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
In fact, I have always thought an interesting opener when meeting someone you may be interested in was "so if you ever got married would you sign a PN?" and if the answer is no then it would be on to the next person. I never used this though!
*** I AM NOT A LAWYER ***
QUOTE(eclowjpd @ Jan 1 2007, 03:16 AM)
Much depends upon the marriage law in your state. In my state, assets, for the most part, assets that one has prior to the marriage remains with that person if divorcing.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
[edit] Marriage success statistics
The United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) reports that "...marriages arranged through these services would appear to have a lower divorce rate than the nation as a whole, fully 80 percent of these marriages having lasted over the years for which reports are available." [2] The USCIS also reports that "... mail-order bride and e-mail correspondence services result in 4,000 to 6,000 marriages between U.S. men and foreign brides each year."
QUOTE(G&C @ Jan 3 2007, 09:45 AM)
Well, this is an interesting thread, and in my view an important topic.
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
FYI, my fiance and I will be putting everything together that makes practical sense (i.e, if it creates a convenience and doesn't cost too much for that convenience) because keeping it apart doesn't add any value or protection if that is what some of you are thinking.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
In fact, I have always thought an interesting opener when meeting someone you may be interested in was "so if you ever got married would you sign a PN?" and if the answer is no then it would be on to the next person. I never used this though!
*** I AM NOT A LAWYER ***
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
FYI, my fiance and I will be putting everything together that makes practical sense (i.e, if it creates a convenience and doesn't cost too much for that convenience) because keeping it apart doesn't add any value or protection if that is what some of you are thinking.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
In fact, I have always thought an interesting opener when meeting someone you may be interested in was "so if you ever got married would you sign a PN?" and if the answer is no then it would be on to the next person. I never used this though!
*** I AM NOT A LAWYER ***
QUOTE(eclowjpd @ Jan 1 2007, 03:16 AM)
Much depends upon the marriage law in your state. In my state, assets, for the most part, assets that one has prior to the marriage remains with that person if divorcing.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
Until which time you are comfortable, I recommend that you keep your assets in your name only. Do not co-mingle pre-marital assets with the new spouse, including a home that you own, investments etc.
If you have your pay, income etc, going into an account for household expenses, or a joint account. Don't move any money from these accounts or your pay etc., to any accounts that are just in your name, such as investments.
I was almost dupped. Fortunately, I kept my house in my name and all of my assets. My lawyer said the smartest thing I did was I never moved any income or money from checking accounts into my investement accounts. Had I done this the investment account would have become marital asset.
daveandlirio,
although you might be righ for the most part, I feel sorry for you...
Why are you/have you marrying/married someone you don't trust ?
I hope this is not offending you.
Ana
although you might be righ for the most part, I feel sorry for you...
Why are you/have you marrying/married someone you don't trust ?
I hope this is not offending you.
Ana
Pre-nups and thoughts about self protection if things do not work out, are not about trust. It is about the law and consideration of children from previous life. I have a pre-nup, a will and have put most of my assets into a Trust. I do not have nor do I intent to have a joint account. I think the Pre-nup agreement, the Will and the Trust, that has specific provisions to provide for my wife I were to die and what we have agreed to if we separate is much stronger evidence of a real relationship than the names on a joint savings account or a utility bill.
QUOTE(G&C @ Jan 3 2007, 08:45 AM)
Well, this is an interesting thread, and in my view an important topic.
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
Just because we meet someone we are sure about, does not mean we (the USCs) will beat the 50% odds that our marriage will not end before one of us dies.
What this means is, you should think long and hard about a pre-nuptial (PN) agreement. While some people say they have nothing now, or the laws of the state they live in are (or are not) community, this does not mean you can predict the future. Which means if the laws of the state you live in change or if you move, you can create a situation for which you are not prepared.
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin (WI is a quasi-community property which to me it actually isn't!). In these jurisdictions property acquired prior to the marriage stays with the party who acquired it. Certain jurisdictions exclude property that comes into the marriage by gift and inheritance. Some community property states allow equitable distribution where justice is served. These rules vary state to state and are fraught with exceptions.
So if there is ANY chance you may live in another state or country or if you think your state's laws may change, you need a PN. Which means you all need one.
So in the example below, you don't need to keep anything separate as long as you can prove you brought it to the "community" . And if you move, the state you are in will not care where you are married, only where you are if the marriage ends. Having said this, separate property brought to the marriage can remain "yours" after the marriage but the increase in value of that property will most likely be split!
Your not even married yet and you're already planning for a divorce with an easy escape route? In my opinion it's this type of 'thinking and planning for the worst' that's part of the reason that 50% of US marriages end in divorce. I read this entire thread and I saw this pre-nup idea defended by saying it's not about trust. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If you're worried about your future spouse stealing your money then you shouldn't marry them.
QUOTE(G&C @ Jan 3 2007, 08:45 AM)
FYI, my fiance and I will be putting everything together that makes practical sense (i.e, if it creates a convenience and doesn't cost too much for that convenience) because keeping it apart doesn't add any value or protection if that is what some of you are thinking.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
Having said that, we do have PN (about 60 pages and $2,500 because someone will ask) which was signed in her lawyer's office by both of us at the same time.
My advice would not be to write-up a PN on your own. Yes there is an investment, but it certainly creates much needed discussion. We had no disagreements over what we thought was practical, and if you have any disagreement the two of you are probably not suitable for each other.
I will counter by saying that if you're starting a marriage off by protecting your assets from your future spouse then you are definitely not right for marriage. Period. Why even get married at all? Two people can live together without being married and then there's no need for a pre-nup at all. Of course that takes non-USC's out of the picture but that's probably a good thing given that the USC would still be responsible for the foreigner (Affidavit Of Support) even with a pre-nup.
QUOTE(G&C @ Jan 3 2007, 08:45 AM)
In fact, I have always thought an interesting opener when meeting someone you may be interested in was "so if you ever got married would you sign a PN?" and if the answer is no then it would be on to the next person. I never used this though!
Wow. Just wow.
I guess that thinking sort of explains everything above. FWIW, you wouldn't need to move on to the next person because you would get to the end of the line before you found a single woman that didn't walk away from you first.
Robor, Its called reality. Get over yourself and your argument doesnt hold water.
QUOTE(aiwntrmute @ Jan 17 2007, 06:43 PM)
Robor, Its called reality. Get over yourself and your argument doesnt hold water.
Yes, it is reality. People of your thinking are unsure of their fiancee/spouse and don't trust them. People like me don't need an 'escape clause'.
QUOTE(Robor007 @ Jan 18 2007, 07:49 AM)
QUOTE(aiwntrmute @ Jan 17 2007, 06:43 PM)
Robor, Its called reality. Get over yourself and your argument doesnt hold water.
Yes, it is reality. People of your thinking are unsure of their fiancee/spouse and don't trust them. People like me don't need an 'escape clause'.
Marriage is about absolute confidence in yourself, and your fiancee/spouse. Without that necessary level of trust, stay single and hug your money.
It's kind of interesting to read the two sides of this discussion/argument. It's this whole deal of trust vs. responsibility. Are the two really mutually exclusive? To be honest, I don't know the answer to this. It just seems like a lot of people are putting money first, and their relationship second. I've seen it more than once in discussions about pre-nups, where a person will completely want to drop a relationship if the other won't do one. It really does give you an idea of where a person's priorities are. If the two individuals in a relationship both agree, and -want- to have a pre-nup, more power too them. But forcing one on someone, definitely a big no-no.
For me, a pre-nup simply isn't necessary. I have no investments or significant things needing protecting. I trust my fiance' and I'm okay with the fact that should something not work out, things will be shared out evenly.
For me, a pre-nup simply isn't necessary. I have no investments or significant things needing protecting. I trust my fiance' and I'm okay with the fact that should something not work out, things will be shared out evenly.
Wow, I'm glad I married a poor guy Never in my life would I even consider being with someone who felt that he needed to protect his assets from me.
Never in my life would I even consider being with someone who felt that he needed to protect his assets from me. QUOTE(rob&ana @ Dec 28 2006, 01:31 PM)
Frankly…
I don’t understand why people are so set against prenuptial agreements or financial protection. It is such an important topic, and not because people get duped. This is the way people should enter relationships, being totally honest and up front with their concerns, being financial or emotional. When a person CHOOSES to leave their country, they are assuming a risk, yes. But I would presume that this person has weighed thoroughly the pros and cons of moving to another country and leaving EVERYTHING behind, and I would also presume that this person has at least given some thought about the what ifs… what if it doesn’t work? What if I don’t like it there? What if I miss my family and my country so much? Do I love him so much that is it worth leaving all behind? Does he love me so much that it’s worthy of me making this sacrifice? It is a risk, and the only person responsible for taking it is the intending immigrant, so let’s not blame a guilt trip on petitioners.
Again, I am the immigrant, and even though we did not have a prenup, finances were discussed. I was a very independent with my finances, I did not have to account for any of my expenses to any one, and I did not feel like starting to do it (it just felt awkward). We took measures in order for both of us to be comfortable with the decision. We have joint accounts, but we also maintain individual accounts, and we make our own decisions when investing our own money, and we share the decisions when investing our common monies.
I don’t think the OP meant that he didn’t want to share at all with his fiancée, I think he just wanted to feel safe and protect himself, and that I see as perfectly normal.
I don’t understand why people are so set against prenuptial agreements or financial protection. It is such an important topic, and not because people get duped. This is the way people should enter relationships, being totally honest and up front with their concerns, being financial or emotional. When a person CHOOSES to leave their country, they are assuming a risk, yes. But I would presume that this person has weighed thoroughly the pros and cons of moving to another country and leaving EVERYTHING behind, and I would also presume that this person has at least given some thought about the what ifs… what if it doesn’t work? What if I don’t like it there? What if I miss my family and my country so much? Do I love him so much that is it worth leaving all behind? Does he love me so much that it’s worthy of me making this sacrifice? It is a risk, and the only person responsible for taking it is the intending immigrant, so let’s not blame a guilt trip on petitioners.
Again, I am the immigrant, and even though we did not have a prenup, finances were discussed. I was a very independent with my finances, I did not have to account for any of my expenses to any one, and I did not feel like starting to do it (it just felt awkward). We took measures in order for both of us to be comfortable with the decision. We have joint accounts, but we also maintain individual accounts, and we make our own decisions when investing our own money, and we share the decisions when investing our common monies.
I don’t think the OP meant that he didn’t want to share at all with his fiancée, I think he just wanted to feel safe and protect himself, and that I see as perfectly normal.
I think prenups are a very sensitive topic...some see them as absolutely necessary, some see it as planning for failure. It's all subjective really.
But at the end of the day, the list that the OP posted TO ME seems over the top. If you're doing all that to protect yourself from someone who left his/her whole existance to be with you, there's something really telling about that.
Might as well put plastic covers over the couch, yanno?
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