Wooooa Sarah opening up a whole new can of worms!

Exactly! Thank you.

I must say that by this point I am thoroughly confused. A few days ago, in discussing alcohol, I got the impression that different interpretations are acceptable and that God is the judge, not other muslims.

I'm replying to my own post because i was too late to edit. I really do not want to discuss the validity of hijab ( that's been done too much here), but I do want to add this:

The Quran is our source of religious knowledge. Hadiths or sayings of the Prophet are secondary sources. I have studied Islamic jurisprudence and there is a very specific scholarship to decide which hadiths are authentic and which are not. So many hadiths have been accepted as valid, but which scholarship shows they may not be. Understanding the Quran is also tricky because many of the verses are relavations revealed in a specific historical context. So not only do you need to understand the verse, but you need to understand when and why it was revealed.

Being Muslim is not for the intellectually lazy. Remember the first word revealed to the Prophet was "read".

Haha, chocolate bunnies. In response to szsz, I suppose Christians could go around getting all offended at the fact that other people choose to give each other gifts on December 25, but what's really the point? It's a holiday that has two manifestations.

With the 'Christianity stole the pagan holidays', well, sort of. But most cultures have some sort of solstice celebrations, spring celebrations, harvest festivals. So is it an evil trick to get the pagans to abandon their religion, or is it 'if you're partying anyway, might as well make it about the right God'? I'm inclined to the latter, only because that's generally just how missionary-based religions get interpreted by local cultures.

There's a great story in Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children about an Indian Catholic convert who asks her priest what Jesus looked like, and after some thought, he answers 'Jesus was blue.' Why? Because Gods (Krishna in particular, I think) are often depicted as blue in Hindu paintings. (The rest of the story has her laughing at the priest, 'What kind of a man is blue!')



You know, this is one of those stories that makes a lot of sense until you realize than the parallel really only works in English with 'Sun' and 'son' having the same sound. Maybe German if you mispronounce it. (It doesn't work so well in Irish Gaelic, for one.) Adapting a local holiday, that I can believe. Tricking thousands of pagans into accidentally believing in the resurrection because two words in modern English sound the same, not so much. (Leaving aside the problems of determining what the pagans believed when the only people who wrote down what they did were the conquering Romans.)

In any case, most people in the United States who celebrate Christmas secularly aren't doing so because it's some ancient pagan custom. They're doing it because it's part of secular American culture.

The same is true of harem=women's quarters which of course comes from haram=frobidden, but generally is the part of the house forbidden to men, but has also, in more recent centuries become seclusion of women, and of course the 18th & 19th century Orientalist paintings and writings have since distorted the word to mean a man with several concumbines.

Dreams of Trespass goes into Fatima Mernissi's childhood household and until the French left Morocco, her family maintained a separated home. You still see it now (not just in Morocco) with gender separation in homes, parties, schools, etc which has certainly become a huge part of Islam, culturally, and in practice.

Great thread Amal! 54 posts and no one is verbally injured yet! It is refreshing to see valid points being made, as we can all learn from this discussion.

Jackie

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer. I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

Thanks, I was confused, too, since a particular post was not referenced.

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

That wasn't my point.... I just found it amusing. Birth-Death-Rebirth stories are prevalent in most religions and most cultures. They're all, IMO, based upon one original "template". What that original might be, no one really knows.

BTW those videos on Amal's website are so funny! I just watched the one on $25,000 weddings. I'm going back now to see the others. Has anyone else watched these videoclips?

Jackie

I am sure that is true for people reading the Bible and the Torah too. Unfortunately, some of the most adamantly "islamic" countries have high illiteracy and poverty rates . . . so they either don't have the time or ability to do all the reading . . . and must rely on their local mullah for his interpretation. That's why IMO alot of what most ppl learn is more "cultural".

Of course, I could probably say the same thing for certain areas in the States where illiteracy/poverty are high . . . who do they get their information from? Lots of people rely on their local communites/churches to tell them what to do.

I took theology and philosophy classes when I attended a Catholic university and the Cistercian monks were reknowned scholars . . . some of what they taught me was to read AND think!! That has been getting me in to trouble most of my life. hehe, I thought my way to the "opposite" of what my family wanted for me religiously.

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any crap in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

That template is called "concept".

There's a difference in saying "You are not being a good muslim if you drink." and "My interpretation of Islam leads me to conclude that drinking is forbidden."

So being a good muslim means telling other when they are not being good muslims, then? Ok, not really "shocking", but pretty distasteful to me.

ETA: And since it is clear that culture and religion are so intertwined. Making judgments about other muslims' behavior could mean that you are trying to impose your culture.

Jesus' birthday is celebrated in December because doing so, astrologically, gives Him a very good reading. I'm being completely serious here too. It was calculated by ancient scholars that Dec. 25th is a good day to be born astrologically. Also, it was traditionally the birthday or feast day of the Egyptian Sun God (Ra?) and probably around the time of a million other pre-Christian festivals. That's one of the things I find interesting about Christianity -- I don't think the incorporated pagan elements are weaknesses, but strengths. Why should ancient wisdom by forgotten just because it's "pagan"?

For the secularization of Christmas... I don't think it will ever be possible to completely remove the Christian elements from the holiday, no matter how many stores are forced to wish people a "Happy Holiday" instead. Everyone knows that we wouldn't be celebrating Christmas if not for Christ having at some point been born lol. Even if Jesus wasn't actually born on Dec. 25th, The Year Zero, imo, the holiday celebrates that He WAS born and that he began his ministry on Earth in a auspicious way. Also, the fact that fun and Good Times are associated with His birth is kind of cool and kind of spiritual in its own way, imo, even if it isn't very religious or solumn. It's an enjoyable holiday esp. when religion is often WAAAAY too serious. I mean -- who doesn't like colorful lights? lol

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

Judgement, as I understand SZSZ, is like... making moral decisions based on situations. For instance, if a group of people you know go out to, say, a strip club, using moral judgement to determine if this is good or bad for you would be to say "this behaviors goes against what I think it correct, so I will abstain from it." The person could even say "I don't think this is a very good thing to do." Judgementalism would be claiming constant moral superiority to this group of people and considering yourself above normal human fallacies based on your belief system. I also think Judgementalism involves alienating people who disagree with you, whereas Judgement would be personal but also outwardly more or less gentle to other people.

This is how I see it, too, but not what I necessarily took from szsz's post.

Yes, that makes sense, Karen. Maybe what is confusing me is that szsz said, "In short, the notion that we are not to judge is an example of a western cultural trait that is mistaken for a tenet of Islam."

From what you've said, I don't believe it is a western cultural trait to not judge, but rather to not be judgmental.

szsz also said, "We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide."

To me, "let everything slide" means allowing other muslims to behave according to their own interpretation. To me this implies the judgmentalism as opposed to judgment as you described above.

I remember a similar discussion a few months ago. It was about whether or not there are fundamental rights/wrongs. I remember szsz saying that not every opinion can possibly be valid or else many horrible things are justifiable (sorry I'm paraphrasing your words, szsz!) I took those statements to mean that there are some fundamental principles that people must agree with to call themselves Muslims (or Christians or whatever), which maybe has nothing to do with clothing or what t eat/not to eat. Things like... murder is wrong, abandoning responsibilities is wrong, sexual abuse, purposely providing misinformation, etc, things that effect the larger community and things that any person who believes in a loving God can support. Using good judgement can prevent these kinds of wrongs, but being Judgemental can often compound them or put smaller issues on the level of these larger issues.

Like peezey said, I think an example will help.

Maybe the point is that certain things are open to interpretation, but others are not. That seems reasonable to me.

All goes back to the black/white/gray issue....

I'm preparing an answer to your questions about my post and will return shortly with a response that, insha'allah, will satisfy you all.

Well, maybe not so shortly; I'm being called away now, as a prior engagment has been rescheduled. Insha'allah, I'll be able to respond tonight as I have nearly finished with examples that specifically address the questions from Jenn, Peezy and Karen_L. I am interested in offering a thoughtful resonse rather than an inflamatory one.

I am confused also because I am wondering if it is ok to judge other Muslim then who is allowed to do so? What I mean is what if a new convert who hasn't read the Quran starts throwing judgements around, isn't that wrong? Who is qualified to make judgements?

I hope that makes sense.

Totally agree Jenn.....ultimatly regardless what others may think, isn't God the final judge anyway?

oh, let's not discuss this please

Quran 9:71 - AND [as for] the believers, both men and women, they are close unto one another: they enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and are constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle. It is they upon whom God will bestow His grace: verily, God is almighty, wise!


In Riyad as-Salihin by Imam Nawawi we find a whole chapter on prophetic tradition relating to this command.


It's all in how you do it. If you attempt to enjoin good in a manner that is abrasive, and causes the person to shut you out, you're not doing much good. But, if you approach them in a friendly, kind manner, engage them in conversation, and give your advice in a pleasant way, the good may stick.

Crazyinegypt: Totally agree Jenn.....ultimatly regardless what others may think, isn't God the final judge anyway?

There is no doubt that God is the final judge, but that does not preclude judgment on this mortal coil. That is because Islam is not only a faith of discipline and personal responsibility to God, it a faith of discipline and personal responsibility to your community. Muslims are called upon to be examples of moderation and righteousness, and to guide and direct each other on the path to God through the establishment of justice in their dealings. Allah tells us:

[3.103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

While there is room for individual interpretation on some matters, there are also boundaries and limitations that define you as a follower of God and His Prophets. The notion that one can do as they please with no intercession from their community, only appear before God for final Judgment is a secular one, for it advocates chaos where Islam counsels order, and the elevation of subjective desire where Islam counsels submission to the Will of God.

The fact is, Allah not only allows for judgment among Muslims as a means to keep order and instruct, He demands it of the believers, for whom He promises rewards, repeatedly so, in fact. The term "enjoin", to direct, to instruct, is one commonly used in a popular transliteration of the Arabic. Other ayat promote speaking out in God's name to prevent an injustice. A sample from among the ayat:

[3.104] Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.

[3.110] Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

[3.114] They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

[4.105] We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou might judge between men, as guided by God: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;

[5.47] Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

[4.135] O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well- acquainted with all that ye do.

[5.48] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

[5.49] And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which God hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is God's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

[7.181] Of those We have created are people who direct (others) with truth. And dispense justice therewith.

[8.29] O ye who believe! if ye fear God, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for God is the Lord of grace unbounded.

[9.67] The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten God; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

[9.112] Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God;- (These
do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers.

[22.41] (They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with God rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

[31.17] "O my son! establish regular prayer, enjoin what is just, and forbid what is wrong: and bear with patient constancy whatever betide thee; for this is firmness (of purpose) in (the conduct of) affairs.

[38.26] O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of God: for those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

[42.15] Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal

Islam is a legalistic faith, much more relatable to Judaism in that way than to Christianity. When one approaches Islam with the paradigms of secularism, one does tend to see it as either judgemental, or as open to constant individual interpretation. It is neither.

I have to admit that when I see someone here make the claim that, in Islam, they can do as they please and no one can judge them but God, I have to grit my teeth and hold my tongue, for this an unfortunate manifestation of the secular elevation of personal desire over the Will of God; culture substituting for the tenets of the faith. It not only means that they expect to commit haram acts with no intercession by other members of their community who wish to help remind them of their duty to God, but that they impose upon other Muslims their values, thus making them accomplices to their ill deeds by their silence.

There will always be the rebellious among us. God says He will guide who He may as He may. Still, as His caliphs on this earth, charged with creating unity and order, judgment upon injustice and the abuse in practice is what we are called to do. While we are to approach the unbeliever and the hypocrite with mercy and beautiful words, we also cannot allow Islam to be represented as corrupted by those among us who do not wish to obey God.

I am confused also because I am wondering if it is ok to judge other Muslim then who is allowed to do so? What I mean is what if a new convert who hasn't read the Quran starts throwing judgements around, isn't that wrong? Who is qualified to make judgements?

I hope that makes sense.

I can't recommend conversion to Islam prior to a indulging in a proper examination of the faith. Without that, a conversion is not worth much. I have made my views known re "convertitis" in the past. Perhaps that will suffice.

gotcha. I was hoping you would answer my question. Thanks!

I have a question for converts- have you all ready the Quran?

I have mine ready.

Jackie

oopsies, I mean have you read the Quran?

Also, for converts: What qualifies you to consider yourself Muslim?

_Scheherezade Goes West_ by Mernissi also discusses this 'haram' idea in Orientalist art and literature.

Female circumcision is a good example of the culture/religion confusion -- most people in the US seem to think (mistakenly) that this is a Islamic practice.

I have read the Quran 4 times complete during the Ramadan months. (one year, I didn't finish) At the beginning of Ramadan I make a list of all the suras and cross it off when I complete it. Sometimes I skip around and sometimes I go front to back. Of course I read passages from the Quran all thru the year, but to answer your question, yes I have read it. The sura Yassen is one of my favorites. Mohammeds favorite is the sura Youseff.

What qualifies me to say I am muslim? In May 2002, I said shahada and I believe from that day forward, I am muslim, alhamdulillah. I live my life to please Allah and I practice the 5 pillars of Islam, which are the saying of shahada, the giving of charity, the belief in angels, the preparation for Hajj and daily prayers.

Jackie

Isn't fasting the month of Ramadan a pillar instead of belief in angels?

Duh,,,yea I messed that up,,,the angles are a tenant of the faith. How in the world did I forget fasting ????????

Jackie

This article may be helpfult o those considering reversion.

The Prerequisites of the Declaration of Faith

Take from it as you may. I don't agree with it all, but I wanted to highlight that there are conditions one should consider before conversion.

chokran

This is one of the first times I have attempted online dawah I am sure all of the muslim sisters here have read the Quran, or at least have started to study its beauty. It is a long book to finish in 3 weeks if you attempt to read it during Ramadan.

One of our friends is preparing to leave soon for hajj. Is anyone here going?

Jackie

Hicham's boss is going with his Mom for one month. They're very excited.

I am not sure what my chances are of ever going to Saudi, so in preparation, I have become addicted to studying Hajj. I have read books by Michael Wolfe, an American convert to Islam. I order DVD's from ebay about hajj. Anything I can get my hands on to experience this wonderful time.

Jackie

Jenn: Alot of so-called pious people (Muslims in this case, but really this happens in every religion) develop a case of "I know it all" syndrone...

Was it not too long ago that the belief and submission to the will of the one God meant you were Muslim?
I wonder what booklet the first Muslims got, to know how to be the "prefect" Muslim (and this could be applied to any religion really)
What happened to the divine qualities that are the ethical virtues to which all human beings should aim to be, like donnot kill, lie or cheat... when did it become so important to debate how to wear hijeb (or if wear at all) or whether or not you should do all your prayers in the exact times? I thought I rememebered reading Allah (the God translated) was all knowing and all merciful?!
I thought all those issues were addressed to be guidelines to aide the masses, if in doubt...not for a way for anal puritans to enforce a strict and rigid system and make carbon copy humans in this world.
What happened to ijtihad (legal independent judgement based upon case law or past precedent)... common sense too?>
So when will we all recognize the ever-so growing danger of religious extremism and view the politicization of religion and the intrusion of religion into politics as parallel threats to civil society and humane civilization. Should we not dispute this intrusion?
The hadith "Difference of opinion in my Community is a mercy for people" has many benefits among which are the fact that the Prophet foretold of the differences that would arise after his time among the madhabs in the branches of the law, and this is one of his miracles because it is a foretelling of things unseen. Another benefit is his approval of these differences and his confirmation of them because he characterizes them as a mercy. Another benefit is that the legally responsible person can choose to follow whichever he likes among them. [After citing the saying of `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz already quoted Suyuti continues:] This indicates that what is meant is their differences in the rulings in the branches of the law. And that is why I consider myself a Muslim and a Muslim only...

I'm not sure what this is trying to say and how it has a relationship to the topic of culture vs. Islam.

As for the questions in the first part of the paragraph, Allah sent His Message and the prophets to guide submitters through all time; no booklets required. Also, He doesn't expect any of us to be perfect, and never has given us that expectation. That is why His mercy and compassion are emphasized.