VisaJourney.com > Culture VS Islam

sarah and hicham

Dec 9 2006, 05:59 PM

QUOTE(browneyez40 @ Dec 9 2006, 02:46 PM)

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 03:25 PM)

QUOTE(szsz @ Dec 9 2006, 12:20 PM)

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

Another way to think of it is how the same men who we're expected to protect from their animal urges manage to remain in control of their raging hormones around the majority of uncovered hairy women. But, all of a sudden, when they're around Muslim women, they can't handle hair.

Still, it does little good to argue about it since it's a choice and this is the choice some make for whatever reason. If it really makes amal and her husband happy that she wears hijab, no harm done.

Your example made me laugh a little.

Anyways I really am not trying to argue with her or you about it since I am in no place to argue. I guess I am just fascinated by the ideas and actions of newer converts and wonder where exactly they come from.

I am just as interested as Sarah in this topic. It confuses me too. I wonder about the muslim men who marry western non-muslim women, and what expectations they have for their dress...

I guess I'll have to talk to my husband when he gets home.

Has anyone had conversations with their spouse about how they should dress as a wife of a muslim man (even though they themselves are not muslim)?

I hope my question makes sense...

-C

This hasn't come up with my husband and I. He is Muslim and I am not. I think he accepts the way I dress and has no problem with it seeing as I don't wear short skirts or tube tops etc. I dress pretty conservatively though so I don't see any issues coming up about how I dress.

browneyez40

Dec 9 2006, 06:04 PM

[/quote]

I am just as interested as Sarah in this topic. It confuses me too. I wonder about the muslim men who marry western non-muslim women, and what expectations they have for their dress...

I guess I'll have to talk to my husband when he gets home.

Has anyone had conversations with their spouse about how they should dress as a wife of a muslim man (even though they themselves are not muslim)?

I hope my question makes sense...

-C
[/quote]

This hasn't come up with my husband and I. He is Muslim and I am not. I think he accepts the way I dress and has no problem with it seeing as I don't wear short skirts or tube tops etc. I dress pretty conservatively though so I don't see any issues coming up about how I dress.
[/quote]

We are in the same situation. I don't wear shorts because I am always cold (silly, huh?). And I would rather dress in pants and a t-shirt than something skippy so that I am comfortable.

-C

peezey

Dec 9 2006, 06:17 PM

QUOTE(szsz @ Dec 9 2006, 03:23 PM)

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 01:15 PM)

szsz I know you don't want to touch hijab with a ten foot pole but I just wanted to ask you your opinion on why western women wear hijab if there is nothing about it in the Quran. I am not asking if it's right or wrong to wear it, just asking where they get this thought or information that it's good to cover their hair.

Thanks as usual,
Sarah

Well, it's what I was saying before; the pressure to cover is enormous. Hijab is sold and sold like a miracle cure for all of societies ills. If all women covered, men would show more respect. If all women covered, there would be less lusting and rape. If women covered, there would be world peace. The reasoning about it is endless.

I'll post some links to info about hijab in a minute so you can see what I mean.

This is shocking to read, I have never heard of women being the source of the downfall of society. And that no matter what they do **still** there is sin? Unbelievable.

cbd2cai

Dec 9 2006, 08:14 PM

QUOTE(browneyez40 @ Dec 9 2006, 04:46 PM)

Has anyone had conversations with their spouse about how they should dress as a wife of a muslim man (even though they themselves are not muslim)?

I hope my question makes sense...

-C

I talked a bit to my husband ONLY when I asked him how I should dress when going to meet his mother. I knew that his mother and sister wore head scarves so I wanted to be respectful of them. He told me to be myself! When I went to their home I wore pants and long sleeved shirt with my hair fixed as normal, they didn't have on the head scarves in the home. When they came to visit me in the flat I stayed in last year, they wore head scarves (of course) . . . I was wearing a gallebeya so I was rather casual.

I think he probably will be surprised at how different women dress here but he has also seen lots of Western movies . . . so maybe not tooooooooo surprised. I don't dress like the women in the movies, LOL!! Too uncomfortable to really get any work done, hehe!

charles!

Dec 9 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(peezey @ Dec 9 2006, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE(szsz @ Dec 9 2006, 03:23 PM)

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 01:15 PM)

szsz I know you don't want to touch hijab with a ten foot pole but I just wanted to ask you your opinion on why western women wear hijab if there is nothing about it in the Quran. I am not asking if it's right or wrong to wear it, just asking where they get this thought or information that it's good to cover their hair.

Thanks as usual,
Sarah

Well, it's what I was saying before; the pressure to cover is enormous. Hijab is sold and sold like a miracle cure for all of societies ills. If all women covered, men would show more respect. If all women covered, there would be less lusting and rape. If women covered, there would be world peace. The reasoning about it is endless.

I'll post some links to info about hijab in a minute so you can see what I mean.

This is shocking to read, I have never heard of women being the source of the downfall of society. And that no matter what they do **still** there is sin? Unbelievable.

perhaps women without hijab are the cause for global warming too

Caladan

Dec 9 2006, 09:17 PM

Makes sense to me. See, first the women are not veiled! So we can see that they are.... hot.... and that makes the temperature go up! And then, the men (wee animals they are) see the women.... and they get hot!!!

Soon, we're melting polar ice caps everywhere.

amal

Dec 9 2006, 09:46 PM

wow, a lot of things to reply to

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 01:23 PM)

QUOTE(amal @ Dec 9 2006, 05:39 AM)

No, Noor didn't tell me these things. These are only some of my opinions on it that I've gatherd for myself. I could have stated the religious reasons but I chose to state the outside reasons. Honestly, My husband prefers me in hijab. Every time I put one on..He about cries . He thinks it makes me more beautiful. I'm not claiming that other men may not find it more beautiful as well. I just feel that there are other things to worry about than putting on make up and doing myself up all fancy just for myself to feel beautiful. That is just my personal viewpoint for myself and nobody else. (some women feel more beautiful on the inside when they wear hijab because they aren't so worried about their outward appearance). ABSOLUTELY a woman should wear it (if she wants to) because God said to... theres no doubt about that in my mind. In my previous post, I wanted to point out JUST A COUPLE reasons God said that women should wear it. Those ARE some of the reasons (of course they are not quoted..they are from my own understanding so please do not misunderstand me for quoting anything) I also don't disagree with the woman who does not wear it. I DON'T wear it YET for reasons I don't feel comfortable discussing openly in the forum. I will discuss it one-on-one if anyone feels they need to know why. I think the woman has the right to choose wether she wears hijab or not. It is her body, her head, her faith, her ideas, her etc katha katha.

These sentences DO make it seem like your husband has quite a large influence on you wearing hijab even if you say it's not for him.

not at all....my husband never once asked or told me to wear hijab..and I Don't wear it.
I cover my head for prayer as required and that is it.

He tells me not to cover unless it is something I want to do and that is all there is to it. I would never wear hijab just coz he asked me to... I'm not that stupid. IF I choose to wear hijab, then it will be when I fully understand what God wants and when I feel that my understanding of Qura'an is sufficient enough to make that decision.

QUOTE(deeshla @ Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM)

QUOTE(amal @ Dec 9 2006, 01:23 AM)

First, I want to say thanks for keeping this thread civil. I have really learned a lot from all of your opinions.

QUOTE(peezey @ Dec 8 2006, 09:11 AM)

QUOTE(mybackpages @ Dec 8 2006, 08:56 AM)

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer.

I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

This answer is for me. I am not speaking on the way anybody else believes on this matter...just myself. ok, now that I have cleared the path...I'll begin.
For myself, I think it is great to cover the hair via hijab and I'll tell you why. We spend so much time trying to fix our hair to look just right so we can feel beautiful ... and for what? So other men can look at us and think we're beautiful? .. For me, that is wrong. I don't want any man to see me and think about me in that way other than my husband. As far as the other "allowed" men .. they are family and are not going to see me in a sexual way so that is not an issue. Hijab is a way of protecting a womans right to just be herself without having to look a certain way or maintain the current style. She can just be herself and spend her time thinking about other things rather than her appearance. NOW... about men having to cover... I believe (again, just me and not saying anybody else feels the same way) men look at each part of a woman in a sexual way .. from hair to shoulders to hips to toes. Women see men in a sexy way as well but not with as much intensity as men see women. (there are always exceptions to each rule...so yeah there are women who see a bicep of a man and about pass out from lust) .... anyway.... men look at things like hair , body type, etc to base their decision on wether they think the woman is attractive or not. If the woman wears hijab, doesn't the man have to get to know the woman on the inside rather than the outside? I think the answer to that is yes and I like the idea of them getting to know me for me and not for my beauty. (again, just my own opinion)

This sounds *verbatim* like what Moroccan men told me all the time about hijab (not all men, just the few that wanted to convince me to wear it, derr!). Was this your opinion before your marriage as well?

I think this is a very narrow way to look at relations between men and women, too Animal Kingdom for me. Women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit -- we do it for ourselves, our self-confidence, our style, to be professional, etc...

A man that is looking at my toes sexually is a couple notches down the IQ totem pole, IMO.

I did say more than once that I was commenting on the reasons outside religious reasons. I know women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit. I just said it was one reason.. just one out of MILLIONS of reasons... Yes it was my opinion before marriage even before I knew much about Islam. I had seen many things on tv about it and one of the first things I saw were women talking about how great they feel when they wear it. Maybe that is what influences my opinion to this day?? I don't know.. Everybody is entitled to their own way of thinking about things. It is ok that ppl may disagree with my opinion as it is just that.. my opinion. What is wrong with a woman feeling the same way as a man does about it...... I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way about it.

amal

Dec 9 2006, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 01:57 PM)

QUOTE(deeshla @ Dec 9 2006, 11:25 AM)

QUOTE(amal @ Dec 9 2006, 01:23 AM)

First, I want to say thanks for keeping this thread civil. I have really learned a lot from all of your opinions.

QUOTE(peezey @ Dec 8 2006, 09:11 AM)

QUOTE(mybackpages @ Dec 8 2006, 08:56 AM)

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer.

I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

This answer is for me. I am not speaking on the way anybody else believes on this matter...just myself. ok, now that I have cleared the path...I'll begin.
For myself, I think it is great to cover the hair via hijab and I'll tell you why. We spend so much time trying to fix our hair to look just right so we can feel beautiful ... and for what? So other men can look at us and think we're beautiful? .. For me, that is wrong. I don't want any man to see me and think about me in that way other than my husband. As far as the other "allowed" men .. they are family and are not going to see me in a sexual way so that is not an issue. Hijab is a way of protecting a womans right to just be herself without having to look a certain way or maintain the current style. She can just be herself and spend her time thinking about other things rather than her appearance. NOW... about men having to cover... I believe (again, just me and not saying anybody else feels the same way) men look at each part of a woman in a sexual way .. from hair to shoulders to hips to toes. Women see men in a sexy way as well but not with as much intensity as men see women. (there are always exceptions to each rule...so yeah there are women who see a bicep of a man and about pass out from lust) .... anyway.... men look at things like hair , body type, etc to base their decision on wether they think the woman is attractive or not. If the woman wears hijab, doesn't the man have to get to know the woman on the inside rather than the outside? I think the answer to that is yes and I like the idea of them getting to know me for me and not for my beauty. (again, just my own opinion)

This sounds *verbatim* like what Moroccan men told me all the time about hijab (not all men, just the few that wanted to convince me to wear it, derr!). Was this your opinion before your marriage as well?

I think this is a very narrow way to look at relations between men and women, too Animal Kingdom for me. Women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit -- we do it for ourselves, our self-confidence, our style, to be professional, etc...

A man that is looking at my toes sexually is a couple notches down the IQ totem pole, IMO.

I agree with you Deeshla.

amal why are you making excuses for men? NO matter how many times you say this is not what your husband says and that it is just your opinion I just don't believe it, sorry. What you wrote sounds like it came straight from the mouth of a man.

I'm not making excuses for men. As I said before, I don't wear hijab and my husband doesn't force me to do anything. He tells me that he has no power to force me to do anything and that he knows I'm fully capable of making my own decision. I don't know if I'll ever wear hijab or not. I would like to..but at the present time I am unable to. I do not wish to discuss that in the open forum as I stated in an earlier post. Why is it so hard to believe that a woman can have the same idea as a man? To someone who disagrees with wearing hijab, of course they're going to think I'm defending the men. To a woman who agrees with hijab..they are more likely to understand that I'm not defending the man and my opinion may just make sense to them. It is also possible they won't... Again, it is just the way I personally feel and I'm not trying to express the feelings of any other persons but myself.

QUOTE(szsz @ Dec 9 2006, 02:11 PM)

Sarah, it certainly could be the case that amal came to the decision to wear hijab from sources other than her husband. No matter the reasoning used to explain why they should do so, there is a lot of pressure on Muslimas, especially Muslima converts, to cover their hair. There's also a lot of pressure on men to have "their women" cover in order to show that they are able to maintain authority over them. In many segments of Muslim society, a man is not a man unless he can control at least one woman (a white, western woman = more points). I'm not saying that this is the situation with amal or any other woman who wears hijab. I'm just saying that the emphasis on hijab is political (Islam = Arab) as well as social (men are qawaam over women), a means of demonstrating Muslim "wins" over western norms. Both men and woman are feeling the need to comply. That is especially true if they are active in a Muslim community.

Please, don't be so hard on her. This is not unusual.

thanks sz! Although I don't wear hijab (except covering to pray), I do appreciate your help.

QUOTE(browneyez40 @ Dec 9 2006, 04:46 PM)

QUOTE(sarah and hicham @ Dec 9 2006, 03:25 PM)

QUOTE(szsz @ Dec 9 2006, 12:20 PM)

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

Another way to think of it is how the same men who we're expected to protect from their animal urges manage to remain in control of their raging hormones around the majority of uncovered hairy women. But, all of a sudden, when they're around Muslim women, they can't handle hair.

Still, it does little good to argue about it since it's a choice and this is the choice some make for whatever reason. If it really makes amal and her husband happy that she wears hijab, no harm done.

Again, I have not made the choice to wear hijab. So I'm not saying its wrong to let a man see you. I was merely trying to give some reasons a woman may or may not choose to wear hijab.

I am just as interested as Sarah in this topic. It confuses me too. I wonder about the muslim men who marry western non-muslim women, and what expectations they have for their dress...

I guess I'll have to talk to my husband when he gets home.

Has anyone had conversations with their spouse about how they should dress as a wife of a muslim man (even though they themselves are not muslim)?

I hope my question makes sense...

-C

I have had conversations with my husband about what he expected and he has always said to just dress as I dress. I do dress modestly (I always have) and he is just fine with that. I have worn all types of clothing and he has not had a problem with any of them. I told him once that I wanted to wear hijab and he said I needed to learn a lot more before I make a decision like that. I don't know if I'll ever be a Hijab wearer or not but I do know that I am free to make my own choice on that and I can make that decision in my own time. If my ideas and opinions are just like that of a man... that is ok with me ... at least it is one more thing the men and I can agree on and not argue about.

hey, we disagree on everything else.. why not agree on this hahaha

Virtual wife

Dec 9 2006, 09:58 PM

thanks sz! Although I don't wear hijab (except covering to pray), I do appreciate your help.

No problem, sis!