ok not to prolong the Sunday thread but I just don't get that at all. Maybe because I'm a black/white type of girl. If there's a hadith to prove that this or that is ok then I can see the grey area but this just do what you want thing doesn't sit right for me. Maybe it works for others but I wouldn't feel right.

I don't know many muslims actually. I know a few from this site and about twelve in real life. None of them drink alcohol, all wear hijaab and all eat only halal foods. I don't know any in real life that do this or that as long as they feel good with their God.

Be that as it may.....I've learned my lesson and will go elsewhere for my religious education. You'd a thunk I'd have learned that the first two times I was burnt on this site.

I find some of your questions to be quite rediculous is all. If you wanted to know if there was a loophole I don't think the question "does hicham drink?" is really the approproate one. K thanks, you're a peach too.

Everyone looks at it differently, but for some people, Islam (or any religion) is not a list of do's and don'ts, it is a relationship an individual develops with God, using the Qur'an and Sunnah are a framework for establishing and enhancing that relationship.

There will be times that relationship is stronger and times where it is weaker. Not everyone "connects" in the same way. Some may feel most pious because of a piece of fabric and some may not. I don't mean disrepect to hijab, but it certainly is not how all Muslims define themselves or others or measure the strength of their faith. Personally, I feel acts like charity will carry far greater weight than what is or is not on my head.

Additionally, not everyone interprets things the same. Some are getting their Islam from fiances, husbands and/or friends that were raised in Muslim countries that did not encourage questioning long established (and male derived) practices of Islam, and often this is a very Arab-centric interpretation. Some interpret the Qur'an and Sunnah with an understanding of the history of the time, and believe it can evolve, is meant to evolve with time. Just as the prohibition of alcohol started first as a discussion of how it can be harmful, evolved to not being intoxicated during prayer, and later became even stronger, I believe other things can be understood to evolve. I think abolishing slavery is a natural progression of the Qur'an/Sunnah.

I think very few of the Muslims on this board eat only halal/zabihah as generally interpreted.

I believe the term "boyfriend Islam" was used recently and I think it's rampant here.

I reverted to Islam months before meeting Mohammed. He has a hard time explaining things to me about our religion, so you could call my learning "internet islam".

Jackie

Hey with all this talk about peaches, I'm thinking to bake a peach pie want some?

I don't think it's "islam" to have a boyfriend. Dating is definitely frowned upo n.

haha I don't even know what that means... "I don't think it's 'Islam' to have a boyfriend"

Did you read about boyfriend Islam from szsz the other day? She explained what it means.

I meant it is not permitted for a muslim to have a boyfriend. I thought it was pretty obvious but obviously not to all. No I didn't read what szsz wrote.

"Boyfriend Islam is believing whatever your Muslim boyfriend tells you about Islam without checking it out for yourself."

from szsz I believe this was discussed in the "muslim marriage tips" thread.

I just can't imagine meeting my Muslim internet boyfriend, becoming immediately engaged, converting to Islam during that perdiod then having him convince me to wear hijab.

I guess I just can't relate with some people here.

What are the internet relationships? not boyfriends? or long-distance boyfriends?

I am wondering the same thing. So you weren't boyfriend girlfriend with your now fiance before you became engaged over the internet?

Do you accept what you read at face value or do you think about it/question it? SZSZ defined boyfriend Islam as accepting what is told without question.

I'd consider him a boyfriend but it's haram for us to be talking on the phone and via the net. I accept that but I can't stop since we started doing it before I became muslim.




If you're referring to me I was not immediately engaged.

I definitely check everything myself so I can't relate to that either.

I am confused What does this mean? I thought you gave up alcohol because you became Muslim and it is haram? If something is done before converting, it can continue because it started before? I am totally lost

Do you seriously equate giving up alcohol with giving up communicating with a man with whom you've formed a relationship? I think that's a stretch to say the least.

Correct me if I am wrong but not that many posts up you said


and then you said boyfriends are haram but you have one. So are there shades of wrong with alcohol outweighing male/female relationships? Or do you sometimes do what you want?

i'm sooooooooo confused

Do you have a problem with me or are you just picking on me because you're Sarah's friend. I'm actually sick of this conversation.

When things are black and white and I can prevent them then I will do my best to do so. Giving up alcohol is an easy thing to obey. Giving up an entire relationship is not, unless you're totally cold hearted. Not wearing hijaab is haram in my opinion that I formed not just from Usama's convincing arguments but also from certain hadiths that I have read. I'm still not wearing it but I"m getting there. I'm striving for perfection but I'm not now nor will I ever be perfect.

But to just outright say that you can do whatever the heck you want just so long as you "feel" you're alright with God is something I am not comfortable with.

I think I've officially been pigpiled on and now I know why a few posters are missing lately. I didn't understand before but now I do. Thanks for the reminder;)

I think the point is to show that just because you see alcohol haram/halal as black & white, others might see extra marital relationships/boyfriends just as black and white.

The point being that your religion is interpreted by you, not by us, so no matter what you think about what is black and white is not the same as your sisters, for example, and it is not your place to judge them and their relationship with god, nor is it their place to judge you for your choices.

Again, this segment started with you wanting to understand something, some of us explaining why there will be differences, and then you interjecting that our explanation doesn't sit right with you when things are "black and white" yet you then make choices inside your religion re: boyfriends. No one is judging you but trying to point out to you how it is there are, and always will be a different Islam for as many Muslims as there are on the planet.

it's not easy being the flavor of the month. i've been there before

I was Flavor of the Week once. Can we all agree to disagree?

Jackie

I have no problem with you. I am questioning your own words. I don't consider that picking or pigpiling on you; I would consider it questioning contradictory points of view you have posted in a short span of time.

I started out by saying that Muslims are VERY different. You talked about things being black/white and how that may work for others but not you. Then you discussed boyfriends being haram but how you have one - defined as haram by your very own interpretation, not mine. Your boyfriend has been Muslim all along right, but he was chatting with you and that is haram (again by your definition)? Is that very different than Sarah's husband drinking alcohol?

This isn't about judgement, not by me anyway. I am a firm believer that people need to establish their own relationships with God, and define that relationship themselves. However, you brought black and white and questioned how people could do that and how you couldn't. And it is picking on you to point this out?

no! just kidding

There was this great story told in the film Le Grande Voyage. A Sufi was asked if wine was allowed. He answered "it depends on how great your soul is." Pour a glass of win in to a bowl of water and the color of the water changes. Pour a glass of wine in the ocean and the ocean looks the same.







I am one of those- horrified to hear anyone decide who is Muslim and who is not.

Doodle just because Bosco and I share the same opinions doesn't mean anyone is ganging up on you. I have repeatedy seen you post about alcohol, whether or not anal sex is ok, and wearing hijab partly because your fiance wants you to. Are we not allowed to question anything you say?

You say you strive for perfection as a Muslim. I think that's great. But as a new convert do you think it's appropriate to be questioning the actions of another Muslim? I think you need to worry more about yourself and whether or not you have a "bad egg" on your hands.

I still think it's too funny that you asked if Hicham drinks. You opened this can of worms on yourself, sowwwwwwwwwie.

Nighty night peaches!

Sarah

i missed the answer to that part. was it ok or not?

Where did I judge Hicham for drinking?

Is his drinking a sore spot for you? Maybe you should think about why my asking if he drinks bothers you so much. Might wanna look into that sweetie

don't keep me in suspense!

Ok this is what I got so far out of this whole thing:

Some sins are ok.

I have never judged anyone. Where did I judge anyone? I simply stated that FOR ME, it is not ok to just do what I want. Judging others would be for me to say "they are wrong for doing what they want". Never did I say that.



Apparently I didn't explain the whole black and white thing adequately but I'm too tired to try now.

I think if his drinking was a sore spot, then they wouldn't be out at a pub together.

Actually yes, it's a bigger sin, but why are you comparing Sarah's husband's sin to my boyfriend's sin. I'm lost here.




It is picking on me to pick out every freakin' word I said. For goodness sakes I asked if Sarah's husband drinks. Very simple question and no judgement involved. Apparently that's a sore subject with her and now all hell's broken loose. I won't bring up Sarah's husband's drinking anymore!!!! Promise!!!!! lol





I would have thought that too but I guess I hit a nerve.

Doodle let me sum it up for you. What you said basically sounded like this:

The sins that I commit are ok because it's me, but all other Muslims should not sin at all. You are holding everyone else to higher standard than yourself.

The most shocking thing I have read here is how you are trying to find a loophole to drink. This just leads me to believe that you have converted before being ready. Coverting is a big responsibility and not one to be taken lightly. As a matter of fact, I think once you are aware something is a sin and you keep doing it that its really bad.

I think you really need to figure just why you have converted. It's not just you either, there are several members that have converted that seem to be having a hard time with it now because of Christmas. You can't have it both ways. If you didn't convert because of your own beliefs then that is the biggest sin.

wow, just wow

I don't think you hit a nerve at all. I think its just the nature of your questions as Sarah said. I just find it rather odd that you have converted, call yourself a Muslim, and know very little about it.

Of course not Sarah. It's a free country and I"d be disappointed in you if you didn't question every freakin' thing I say hon. It just wouldn't sit right with me if you let things go for the sake of peace. That's just not your style.



When you say questioning the actions of another Muslim that implies, to me, that i'm judging them. I ask about people and what they do. It's called adult conversation.



I'm fine, thanks for the concern. I am worried for you now though since you seem to be very tender about your husband's drinking. Good luck with that!



Actually a simple yes or no answer would have sufficed so actually you are the one with the can of worms.





HOn you don't need to sum up what I mean. I know what I meant. I know exactly why I converted. Why do you feel the need to add to this pile? It seems that everytime Sarah attacks you just follow along.





Do you know everything there is about Catholicism? Very little? Hon you just judged me. congrats.

Doodlebug,



I think the most important thing I have learn on my journey in Islam is that we make the simple complicated.

As a revert myself, I can attest that saying shahada does not fill ones head with all the knowledge of Islam. On the contrary, it is just the beginning of learning this beautiful religion. I applaud the new reverts and welcome them to pm me with questions.

Jackie

I am asking if you see a difference becauase you are the one who said it wrong and right are black and white. You are the one who said it wouldn't sit right with you.

When you explained why you continue with your boyfriend, you said it was because you started before you were a Muslim, so it wasn't easy. You said "Giving up alcohol is an easy thing to obey. Giving up an entire relationship is not, unless you're totally cold hearted." However, your boyfriend was Muslim before, so it wasn't something he had to give up. He never had to start. The same thing with Hicham and alcohol.

Let me be clear, I am not labeling what is haram. I am using what you have labeled as haram as examples.

Add to the pile, huh? If you don't want anyone to comment to your posts then I suggest you do everything in PM. Sarah is not attacking you. Why is it when someone disagrees with you and points out how hypocritical your statements are, that you take it as an attack?

Maybe you feel you were ready to convert to Islam, but you have showed otherwise here and in more ways than one. It's quite clear your knowledge about Islam is very limited. I can't see how anyone can make a informed decision about converting to a religion when they know very little about it. If you knew anything about Islam, you would know that drinking is a sin and there is no loopholes around it.

By the way, this has nothing to with you asking if Hicham drinks or not. This is about all the contradicting statements you made that followed.




Actually I don't know much at all about Catholicism, maybe it's because I'm not Catholic. Nice try.

Coming to a conclusion after reading all your statements is not judging.

I see what is wrong and what is right insofar as what I have read in terms of hadiths and what people who I look up to tell me.

I don't do everything that is right though. If I did I'd be perfect and only Allah is perfect. I'm a sinner for sure as is everyone else. I do see that it's wrong though and that is the black and white part, if that makes sense.

Not everything that is right is easy. Narrow is the path.



Sorry I thought I had read that you were an Orthodox Catholic in a different thread. Guess that was someone else.

Yes picking out every word someone says is picking on them. No ifs ands or buts about it. It's not quite clear that my knowledge is limited. You have no idea what I have studied and what I have not studied. Maybe I don't know every fartin' little hadith but I have done plenty of research on certain areas that are more important to my faith and quite frankly your comments have really been derogatory and darn right rude. I don't expect anything less from the trio though so keep up the good work!

Being a sinner is such a Christian concept. It doesn't quite carry over into Islam. what you do or do not do as a Muslim is ultimately between you and God. Muslims are told to pray five times a day, so if you don't are you a sinner? Who knows? Only God can judge that.

So lets see I guess in Islam it's ok to talk about having anal sex with your boyfriend publically? It must also be ok to look for a loophole to start drinking again? Religion is not a joke. I think what is darn right rude and derogatory is treating religion like it is one. These things clearly show that your knowledge is limited as do all of your other questions about Islam that we see all week long.

Also, I believe it was you that adressed Sarah first. Oh yeah, can you please point out to me what I said that was derogatory? You have obviously bitten off more than you can chew.

Move over peezey cause I just found my way into the trio, and there isn't room for four of us.

Apparently anyone that shares our opinion gets into the group.

It's derogatory to insinuate that I was not ready to convert. That's common sense dear.

Yes I addressed Sarah first. I asked if her husband drinks. *gasp* If there is nothing wrong with his drinking why is that such a horrible question? It wasn't to start a fight but I guess you three are so blood thirsty anything will do right?

I have not bitten off more than I can chew dear, I just choose not to stoop to your level.

California residency is no longer a requirement.

You have pretty much made it clear that you were not ready to convert by your statements, you did that on your own, no help from me.

No one said your question was horrible, but why is Bosco's question about a haram boyfriend *gasp* so horrible?

You are absoulutly right, you didn't stoop to my level...you went alot lower.