Alright, I'm trying to follow the "painting the whole picture" philosophy for this process. So I was thinking about the evidence requirements for the affidavit of support, and I was thinking that my benefit information helps to add some more finacial stablility to my situation.

I sit here and think, just a monetary salary is one thing, but when you add the monetary salary AND the benefits information, it paints a much more financially stable picture.

So, my first question is, what is your opinion on this? Would having my benefit information (health insurance, vision insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, long-term disability insurance, and personal accident insurance) available to paint a fuller picture be beneficial?

Second question, if you think so, how do you go about demonstrating this? Letter from HR? Summary of benefits from the companies? Etc?

Alright, danke!

Cass (bebop the great)

My opinion, you give them what they ask for, the form instructions are quite clear. That's what I'm doing.

I'm self-employed and I'm doing A and C. And I have my own practice so it's simple for me.

I don't see where doing as you say goes to any of the areas below.

As the sponsor, you must show you have sufficient income and/or financial resources to assure that the alien you are sponsoring will not become a public charge while in the United States.
Evidence should consist of copies of any or all of the following documentation listed below that are applicable to your situation.
Failure to provide evidence of sufficient income and/or financial resources may result in the denial of the alien's application for a visa or his or her removal from the United States.
The sponsor must submit in duplicate evidence of income and resources, as appropriate:

A. Statement from an officer of the bank or other financial
institution where you have deposits, giving the
following details regarding your account:
1. Date account opened;
2. Total amount deposited for the past year;
3. Present balance.

B. Statement of your employer on business stationery,
showing:
1. Date and nature of employment;
2. Salary paid;
3. Whether the position is temporary or permanent.

C. If self-employed:
1. Copy of last income tax return filed; or
2. Report of commercial rating concern.

D. List containing serial numbers and denominations of
bonds and name of record owner(s).

Because for the K1 interview, the I-134 itself is "optional" as in, it's up to the individual embassy and even the individual consular officer to decide if it's necessary or not. As is all the evidence that goes along with it. You are trying to prove that the beneficiary won't become a public charge, and I think personally, that him being covered with insurance upon marriage, and me having security in my income if I get hurt or killed, helps to round out that. Maybe I'm wrong?

Cass (bebop the great)

I'm not sure 'wrong' is the best word.

You're definately overthinking this.

They want to see dollars.

I'm hoping you don't get killed Cass, that would be really sad.

Haha, I'm hoping I don't either!

Cass (bebop the great)

Benefits from an employer, and life insurance, are not considered part of the mix, no matter what kind of picture you'd like to paint. They're not liquid assets, that is, money you could get your hands on easily to support the alien on a day-to-day basis.

They ask for income and liquifiable assets such as savings and bonds. So pony up. Because that's the only picture you must paint. If you appear with a different kind of rationale, the officer could deny you based on the fact that you didn't follow instructions and he/she has no way to compute the assets you think are so relevant.

Stick with the program!

Hmm, that's very true.
I guess my thinking was that if I ended up not being able to work, that there would be a way for him to still be supported even without my income? But I guess that's a whole lotta hypotheticals more than a consular officer wants to compute. Thanks!

Cass (bebop the great)

Cass,

You pose a good question. The 'totality of the circumstances' is something that consular officers are supposed to consider in their evaluation - you're thinking along the right line in that regard. If your income is marginal and you have little or no savings then the benefits information could possibly be the grain of sand that tips the scale in your favor.

If you're going to include the benefit information prepare a concise, easily understandable summary to put on top of whatever supporting materials you provide to document that you have the claimed benefits.

Yodrak

Jersey Girl,

I'm not sure that I agree. Things like short and long-term disability insurance do put money in one's hands in time of need.

The 'totality of the circumstances' is part of the program, and I don't think that Cass is off-base in what she's thinking if she's on the margin.

Yodrak

Okay, Yodrak, I bow to your higher wisdom. It's only an amateurish opinion of mine to suggest one try to follow the instructions as exactly as possible. If one's income/assets are questionable, the next step is a co-sponsor. Right?

I'd hate to have to make a case that if I (the sponsor) got sick, I might receive disability benefits but only if an insurance company agreed. They generally have an agenda to get you back to work -- any work -- asap. Point is, this sort of "income" is iffy and hard to predict. A savings bond, on the other hand, is as good as cash.

Boy this is all a real stretch. Read the language of the form: "As the sponsor, you must show you have sufficient income and/or financial resources to assure that the alien you are sponsoring will not become a public charge while in the United States." and "Statement of your employer on business stationery, showing: 2. Salary paid;"

The intent is that you have cash flow, INCOME. Insurance is not cash flow in the main, true disability insurance can be, but usually there can be a 30-90 day wait. Insurance is a benefit, NOT income and not a salary.

You're not answering the question per the form, and adding in un-asked for information. Let's see, if I were loan collections officer and I needed you to make payments, are you going to offer me your insurance benefits?
I don't think so.

brucejg,

Yes, it's a stretch, and I think I indicated as much when I wrote "If your income is marginal and you have little or no savings then the benefits information could possibly be the grain of sand that tips the scale in your favor." But the information is relevant, even if of little significance in most cases, and I commend Cass for thinking 'out of the box' and not wearing the vision-narrowing blinders that so many VJers seem to wear.

The evaluation of the public charge requirements for non-immigrant visas are highly subjective, not nearly as strictly defined as the requirements for an immigrant visa or adjustment of status. People who are on or close to the margin would do well to take a hard look at all of their financial resources and put forth everything they have at their disposal that could show their financial situation in a more positive light. The chances that the adjudicating officer will consider the information may be low, but the chances are zero only if the information is not presented.

In your quotation you underlined the phrases "sufficient income" and "Salary paid" - why do you neglect the option of showing "and/or financial resources"? Why do you write about "un-asked for information" when people are invited to present any and all relevant information? And insurance is a financial resource that is specifically pointed out as information that one might provide for meeting the public charge requirements.

Yodrak

We could debate this ad nauseum - what I'm looking at is how they might - if a question says what it says, all the fluff in the world doesnt' answer the question. The only insurance benefit I have that could be construed toward this intent is my disability income insurance on my ability to practice my profession. Anything else is not going to pay my mortgage, debts or feed me. Yeah, some benefits may be listed on a W2 but that's vapor money.

Where is insurance mentioned as a financial resource? unless I'm misinterpreting your reference.

I would take financial resources as other means for you to have liquid cash - that are totally under your control, ie savings, a trust, an inheritance. I'm sure there are some who are retired with no job or salary at all, yet financial resources such as retirement accounts, social security, pensions are readily available for support.

Yodrak,

Let me update my last response. I just saw the posting with reference to the UK post, Evidence Which May Be Presented to Meet the Public Charge Provisions of the Law. So I see where insurance is referred to as a financial resource.

But, the OP said this:
"So, my first question is, what is your opinion on this? Would having my benefit information (health insurance, vision insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, long-term disability insurance, and personal accident insurance) available to paint a fuller picture be beneficial?"

and the UK site says this:
"Applicants Own Funds
An applicant who expects to be able to meet the public charge provisions of the law through personal financial resources may submit to the consular officer evidence of funds or income from one or more of the following sources:
* statement from insurance company showing policies held and present case surrender value;"

I suspect that's supposed to say "cash surrender value."

Most of the insurance the OP lists does not have surrender value, only the life insurance if it's whole life.

"cash surrender value
Definition: The amount available in cash upon cancellation of an insurance policy, usually a whole life policy, before it becomes payable upon death or maturity. also called cash value or surrender value. "

And reviewing the UK data, I still believe they are looking for liquid available cash flow.

brucejg,

True.

9 FAM 40.41 Notes. A brief mention, without detail, leaving it wide open. As I wrote, the public charge determination for non-immigrants is very subjective giving a lot of leeway for the visa applicant to present and make their case.

Yodrak

That was the basis for my thinking. If it was for AOS, it wouldn't fly, but the public charge proof for the non-immgrant seems to be more a matter of the opinion of the consular officer regarding the fiancial stability rather than black and white requirements.

Cass (bebop the great)

I still think you are overthinking it.
I recall Vancouver not even asking for evidence of support or an I-134 for K-1 visas.

And even if they do, it's Canada and the totality of your circumstances are that you're a young, college educated, English as a first language couple of similar ages and interests. From Canada. Did I mention that? Not to mention the fact that you've already stated that your current income is +sufficient. And you're adding a second sponsor.

I agree in theory with the arguments above, but you also have to apply some common sense and remember which post you are dealing with. You've had a lot of posts on this topic, and I'm not sure what there is that you don't know by this point. You're bright, you've read a lot. You're going to go roll your dice regardless... what is there to be gained by asking us (just curious)?

Yodrak,
I've looked at 9 FAM 40.41. Yes, a brief mention, insurance policies. Yeah, maybe that's a wide open statement, but I no longer think it's a stretch - it's way off base thinking ANY/ALL insurance policies.

Gees, the whole intention is income, cash flow, available means of support. That's the issue, yet I hear no response to that.

Go look at any loan or mortgage application, or net worth form, I just did - the ONLY insurance listed as an asset is life insurance - the cash value of it, nothing else.

I respectfully disagree and feel that it is misleading to the OP -

I agree with brucejg, and add that employer-sponsored life insurance is generally a term policy with no cash surrender value. The only way it can create a cash flow is if you're dead.

Also, many employment agreements these days are "at will," which means they can walk you to the door at any moment. This puts your benefits at risk, another reason not to present them as evidence you can keep an alien off the dole.

While I wouldn't want to wear "the vision-narrowing blinders that so many VJers seem to wear," I'd also like to take the path of least resistence and just follow the damn rules as we know them.

When I first read Cass' question, my initial thought was -

What, if any, of the employer benefits she mentions might really be considered a benefit that would allay a CO's fear of 'public charge'?

The only one that really registered for me would be health insurance when filing for an intending immigrant with health issues.

The fact the sponsor could provide, by virtue of their employment, medical coverage for the immigrant might be noteworthy in marginally 'close' cases. Something I think could be mentioned in an attachment to the I-134

brucejg,

I do think that these things would be far down on the list of financial resources. But I also think - again - that for the right person, at the right time, and in the right place, it could be something that would tip the balance if the situation is on the edge. That's all. Don't read more into it than I've written.

Cass did not provide any information about her situation, and even if she had provided detailed information I could not begin to guess how the particular consular officer her fiance will face might decide. She asked if the information would give a fuller picture of her financial situation. It will. Will it make her more likely to be seen as an acceptable sponsor? Possibly it could, but I didn't even begin to suggest that it would in her case. So what was misleading?

Yodrak

Yodrak,
My intention is the best interests of the OP and not to mislead or give false hope. And I do realize you're quite knowledgeable all around here.

However as seen by other posters I am not alone in this view. You've also quite clearly avoided the issues I've raised regarding the overall aspect of insurance in regard to a statement of financial position.

Insurance for the most part IS a BENEFIT - it has NO cash value except for whole life insurance. The UK site clearly states cash surrender value of insurance policies. That DOES NOT exist with all the other insurance benefits an employee might have. Further, an insurance benefit ONLY kicks in when an insurable incident occurs.

I don't know what your personal experience is in this area, I know we cleared up the quarterly reports issue.

I've scanned through 9 FAM to get a sense of intent - they're looking for sources of support - that IS the bottom line. Insurance benefits don't complete a financial picture - they kick in when some loss occurs - so if someone is marginal, how the heck is a non-cash generating insurance benefit going to support them?

As I've said earlier, can you pay your rent/mortgage/car payment with these insurance benefits? And I think it's off base to remotely imply it goes to a support picture no matter how much you want to stretch it. Done!

the point i was able to gather out of this debate is this;

you can not pay your rent/mortgage/car payment with health insurance benefits. however where there is none and a serious illness or injury occurs the cost can be catastrophic and the affect of that catastrophic event would significantly hinder ones ability to payrent/mortgage/car payment. the presence of insurance indicates the potential for a more secure financial picture overall.

HUH? seems to be a contradiction. Ok, you say you can't pay bills with health insurance benefits. Agreed. Then you say a catastrophic event will hinder the ability to pay bills. And you conclude the insurance indicates a more secure financial picture? I don't think so.

Let's see: you have a so-called catastrophic event, you're out of work in the hospital for 2 weeks. Great, your medical insurance pays the bills, oh but you have deductibles and co-payments, AND you lose 2 weeks pay. How are you in a better financial picture????? You have half your monthly income to pay the same monthly bills.

You're not amassing medical bills on top of those lost wages.....better a co-payment and deductible than the full bill.

A simple trip to the e.r. is around $600.00 to start without any tests, nevermind a catastrophic event.

HUH! I don't get your point at all.

Say you make $2000 per month. You're out of work 2 weeks, so you only get paid $1000. How ya gonna make up the missing $1000? Duh? Forget the bills, where ya going to get the missing $1000? Sheesh, this is simple math.

Not if you have personal accident insurance.

Cass (bebop the great)

Here's an interesting inteview report, concerning finances. Note the Consular post.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=44244&hl=

Sorry, but I have to laugh at that - we worry and go through so much to make it just right. That's why I've been persistent on this issue.



Cass, you can certainly do as you wish on this issue - but I would not put all your hopes on this insurance issue. It has no cash value, it's not something you'd put on a bank loan etc. It is not an asset. I think you're fishing. Good luck!

So you've made the point on why NOT to get sick or have an accident but you keep missing the point as to how you'll pay for it if you DO!!!!

Cass, why ARE you fishing? Isn't it better to find a co-sponsor? Has your case been transerred yet to Vancouver? There may be Consulate reviews that could help.

(If I were fishing, I'd mention jewelery or a valuable stamp collection. These are tangible assets that can easily be turned into cash.)

I dont think at any point Cass indicated her income alone wouldn't suffice (unless I missed something). I think she is simply trying to build a more solid foundation. She seems to me to be a thinker and in that tries to prepare for the unexpected.

Now , that being said and since we have this can of worms open for debate, can we consider this from the DoS page....
General Information & Frequently Asked Questions Affidavit of Support (Form I-864)

Can free housing be counted as income?

Yes. Sponsors who receive housing and other benefits in place of salary may count those benefits as income. The sponsor may count income that is not subject to taxation (such as housing allowance), as well as taxable income. The sponsor would have to prove the nature and amount of any income that is not included as wages or salary or other taxable income. Evidence of such income can be shown through notations on the W-2 Form (such as Box 13 for military allowances), Form 1099 or other documents that show the claimed income.

Guess this posses another question for me? What if finances are not an isuue? Say you make in excess of $70,000 a year, do you still have to go to all of the problems of locating, stock options, life insurance, 401K, roths, IRA.s, Home, property, saving, you get the point. Is there a cut off where you can sheesh I make enough money?

Jim

If your salary is sufficient, you are not required to detail asset information.

The key wording is 'in place of salary'. Such as being given a free apartment when you manage an apartment building, or a parsonage to live in when you are a preacher. In these types of arrangements the salary is usally relative to the arrangement - free place to live in exchange for low earnings.

Traditionally, benefits are something in addition to salary. Not in place of it.

I understand the housing in place of salary concept. What isn't clear to me is what is meant by other benefits.
An employee's benefit statement will show the dollar amount assigned to each benefit.

In your opinion what items would fall under the heading of "and other benefits in place of salary" from the sentence "Sponsors who receive housing and other benefits in place of salary may count those benefits as income."?

I don't know what other kinds of things employers would offer in lieu of salary, but if someone were being compensated that way, they'd probably know.

I think the key phrase in there is "in place of salary".

So what is the Salary cutoff where you can stop filling out that form? It seems it wants all of that information.

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[size="3"]Jim

Ah, for the I-134?

I'll defer to someone who has completed that one (I skipped straight to the I-864). I'm sure you don't need to include asset info if your salary is sufficient.
Remember that the I-134 (and many other forms you'll encounter) are for purposes other than just 'finace', so some of the questions seem a bit odd for what you are doing.

For your particular situation, read up on the Chinese consulate.

The typical requirement is that you meet the poverty level.

r-jo, I think he wants to know, how do you avoid filling the asset info in on the I-134 forum itself. He meets the income & doesn't want to include asset info.

Oh, ok. my bad.

That might be consulate subjective.

If you make enough money, my take on 'other assets' would be just fill in the approximate truth. Unless your consulate is tough to get through - then you might want to attach some bank statements or a bank letter. You could do the same for Keogh's, IRA's, pensions, etc.

As far as real estate goes, I had an appraisal of my home to attach to the application but that was only because I'd recently refinanced. If you don't have one, and you want to put a value down for your home, attach the declaration page from your homeowners policy and use the value the home is insured for. If you have a mortgage, attach your most recent statement. Do the simple math and enter the equity on the I-134.

I didn't bother with cars and other personal property. I don't think there's even a line for that anyway....

Since the link above points to the answer, here it is: http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1328.html

Do the same income requirements apply to all immigrant visa applicants even if they use the I-134?

No. The 125 percent minimum income requirement, the need for the most recent year's tax return and other requirements only apply when an I-864 is needed. Applicants using the I-134 will need to show that their sponsor's income is 100 percent of federal poverty guidelines as required under Section 212(a)(4) of the INA.

So where does the 125% come from that we read all over VJ in regards to the I-134?

I read that too and scratched my head

Because well-meaning people are ill-informed.

However, since 125% is going to be required when the I-485 is filed (AOS) the common wisdom is to get your ducks in a row now.

I do understand - as I personally fall well above your number, I have only gotten a bank letter and last year's tax transcript, being self-employed. Done.



Before I open that can of worm, other benefits, you should read 9 FAM 40.41 here....http://foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09fam/0940041N.pdf

Everything you want to know concerning "Public Charge" determination. While most is geared to the I-864 and it's higher level of evidence it does answer much about what they're looking for.

Also from the earlier link above there's this, "What can be used as assets?

Assets can be savings, stocks, bonds and property. They must be easily converted to cash."

Benefits are not easily converted to cash - actually they may not have any cash value.

Oh my! So there is no income cutoff? This will take weeks to get together, thank God I have this forum to get it all together.

Jim