Marriage is 100/100.

50/50 or 100/100 either way, what I was trying to say was that neither one of us does all of the work and that we share everything equally. I was afraid if I said 100/100 that someone would come back and say that we both couldn't do 100% of the work 100% of the time.. I figured saying 50/50 worked better to say that we both do the work together. Either way works though I was just trying to keep the explaining to a minimum hope that cleared it up

you're supposed to be in the kitchen. that will preclude you from rabble rousing.

Who cloaked it under the veil of Islam? (I am off now to dust the king's crown and prepare the royal meal)

Jackie

I wasn't referring to your post.



The title of this thread, or did we change topics?

The man may be the king of the castle but the woman is the queen. Both are equal.

Amal - I don't what you are describing in your relationship is remotly close to anything I have read so far. If you are both sharing the work then that is a modern day marriage.

duh sorry, i'm 1/2 asleep from waking at 5am.

I don't spoil Mohammed cuz we're Muslim. I do it because he is so damn good to me.

Jackie

yep yep yep.. I'm glad you got what I was saying. I tend to TRY to get things said too quickly, or I end up rambling and saying the same things over again (in typing) I always wonder if what I type comes accross to others in the way it was intended





I just had to laugh at this one Jackie you know as well as I do that you and I are both spoiled lil' turnips!!! (and we wouldn't have it any other way)

I can understand that, but obeying him at all times?? Always making sure you smell good? He doesn't want to see "ugly in you"??? If I had to constantly worry about how I smelled or looked around my husband, I'd go nuts and would probably reconsider why I married him in the first place. I love the fact that I can lay around in my pjs with him in his and not care if my hair is messy and he doesn't care if his is messy.

Also, why does the woman have to do all the cooking and cleaning of the home and many other tasks?? What does the man do? Work and then come home to a servant wife? I just don't like the sound of that. I understand respect but a woman doesn't have to be a perfectly obedient, good looking, good smelling servant to be respectful.

My husband helps me cook 95% of the time (the other 5% I tell him to leave the kitchen cos I want to surprise him with a meal). When he doesn't help cook, he cleans up the kitchen and does the dishes if I have cooked. If he does the cooking by himself, I clean up the kitchen and do the dishes. Well, I say that, but to be honest, 99% of the time, we always do the dishes together and clean the kitchen together. He helps clean up the bedroom and tidy up the condo. I believe marriage is two people working together.. helping each other.. not expecting things from each other. When you start to expect, you set yourself up for disappointment. You should do the best you can together. Is that wrong?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just uneducated in the ways of muslim marriages and don't understand why it seems that women are servants while husbands are masters.

If someone could perhaps explain it more clearly, I might be able to see why things are the way they are.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just uneducated in the ways of muslim marriages and don't understand why it seems that women are servants while husbands are masters.

If you read the entire thread, it's clear that not all of us conduct our relationships in the same way or agree with all the suggestions. Of course, if you don't know who is Muslim and who's not, you can't tell that not all the Muslim women think the list is for them. So, I'll tell you; not all of the Muslim women agree with all the suggstions. Besides, they are just suggestions, opinions, not requirements of Islam anyway.

Look at the posting from the 1955 Good Housekeeping "Good Wife's Guide" expressing much the same. It has nothing to do with Islam, but that's what a lot of our mothers went by to please their husbands in a predominantly Christian country. Goes to show that there are all types in each group.

I think from what I've read on this forum that Amal and her husband do have a pretty equal marriage.

I can also relate to the point that the ladies here are trying to make. In my past marriages, I gave and gave, but my ex's just took and took. Now, I still give and give, but the difference is, so does my husband.

Selfishness simply doesn't work in marriage. Neither party can be counting how many times the other did dishes or cleaned the bathroom. Both just have to do all they can and give and only if they see that they are the only one giving is there a problem. As long as both parties are doing their best to please the other, the marriage stays strong. The minute one party starts worrying that they might be doing more than some arbitrarily set percentage of the work, there will be problems.

There will be times when one party will do all the giving because the other is sick or unable to give for some other reason, but in a good marriage, it will not always be the same party doing all the giving.

An example from my current marriage: When Abdel first started working here he was not prepared physically for a manual labor job. He came home and crashed after work every day, and wasn't a whole lot of help on the weekend. During the first few months he worked, I did a larger share of the work. Now, I have finals in 2 weeks and he is doing all of the work so I can study. This give and take is necessary and doesn't mean that one party is taking advantage of the other.

I really think that's all the ladies here were trying to say, don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

At the risk of negative attention, I have a comment regarding marriage tips. As you get closer to your SO's 10 year card, you might find yourself becoming more of what he expects and wants in a wife.

In this immigration process there is a period of time where your SO comes and is somewhat reliant on you. After a year or two of assimilation, their need of help diminishes and your role changes. It is at this point you can either make your relationship stronger, or give him a reason to leave the marriage. It's in your power.

Jackie

I just don't know what to say to this.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but in the early months (pre-10 year card) if the issue of immigration is driving your marriage, then by the time you get to this point, your marriage is in trouble. A couple should enter marriage and begin to work on the marriage period. Immigration matters should not be the issue. Yes it can add a strain or another dimension that other marriages mightnot face, but I am marrying this man from day one our future together is the focus.

To me this implies either you were not doing what you felt you should be doing as a wife or needed to be doing in the beginning because of his dependency, or that you are stepping it up now to keep him around, or perhaps some combination of the two. Either way, I find it rather troubling.

My husband would not accept less than what he expected in a wife, and which he made quite clear before marriage, because of immigration-related or adjustment-related issues. Likewise, while I hope we will both grown in our marriage, there will not be some drastic change come his 10-year card. If he decides it is time to fly, he can go. I am not going to change who I am at that time because I have been true to myself, true to what I feel a wife should be, this entire time.

Of course only Jackie can say what she truly meant but my take on it is that the man is a lot more dependent on the wife in the first two years of coming here because we are much better acclamated to the society and how to function in it, therefore we are the more dominant. As he gets more accustomed to how to maneuver life in the US, that role changes and you either have to accept that your role changes as well, i.e. you are not now always showing him how to do this and that, you probably won't be the major breadwinner, etc. anymore, or you might have some resistance since perhaps he assumed that he would be the more dominant one once he got his feet wet.

Every relationship's dynamic is different of course. Some men work better in the submissive role, some thrive in a 50/50 relationship and some prefer taking on the dominant position in the relationship. Mine happens to be the latter which works perfect for us since I thrive on being the more submissive one. This will definitely be hard for me when he gets here since I will have to be in charge, but once he gets settled in I will love him being the more dominant one. I guess it comes down to what works for you.

Learning/showing someone how to do things does not make them submissive or dominant unless you frame it that way.

Yes i understand what you are saying but it seems so foreign to my way of thinking. I can;t imagine entering into a marriage where I have to be in charge because he is so new to this country. I do not plan on showing how to do this or that. I will be dependent on him and he will be dependent on me the way marriage couples depend on each other. His adjustment is his adjustment and he needs to process this on his own. I'll be there for support, but not to hold his hand and walk him through everything.



You are correct that every relationship has different dynamics, but to me this would be dynamics that could lead to serious problems after a couple of years.

First, not everyone in this group had an SO "come" here via a fiance/spouse visa. Which means not everyone's experience here is driven by what you are saying. And I still can't quite figure out what it is you are saying. For instance, my SO was here on a different visa altogether for many, many years, and didn't need me in order to stay here, come here, work here, show him how things worked (he had already been here 9 years by the time we married) etc, but of course we had to adjust his status once we were married because that is the law. And so now he does have a 10 year GC, and my role as his wife is different? I honestly don't get it. Immigration is the least of our worries, and we have had some really sh!t azz things we had to deal with in that regard. But now that he has his 10 year, he can start expecting me to do what? The only thing that's changed in the last 5 years is he knows what to get for me at the grocery store without me having to write it down each time.

I can speak from the perspective of having crossed that point. Not many on VJ stay around to offer their point of view from the backside of the 10 year card being issued.

I certainly didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers here. Just wanted to share what I have learned in the last 4 years from my own experiences and the experiences of many couples I have befriended over the years.

Jackie

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, but can you give an example of what you mean? I honestly don't understand what you are saying. Truly, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand because I think I'm misunderstanding you.

Well I know if the shoe were on the other foot and I were moving to Egypt I certainly wouldn't want to be thrown to the wolves. I would expect that he'd help me all he could with things like learning the subway/bus system, showing me how the whole money thing works, etc.

I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying. When your husband gets here you will not help him out at all? I know I must not be getting your point. Sometimes I hate the internet because it's hard to know where someone is coming from.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. My husband wanted to find his own way. Of course there were things I showed him and there are things he has shown me. For the most part, he wanted to tackle things on his own, and I also thought this was best. He asked for help when he needed it, as I ask him for help with things. I in no way showed him how to do new things for the first time each and every time.

One example that comes to mind is AOS. The spouse is adjusting their status, yet it seems the USC often does the paperwork. My husband took care of this on his own. Not saying it cannot/should not be done the other way, but that for me, the normal thing was for him to handle something as important as that on his own since it was for him.

I think this sort of goes back to the whole infantalization thing. If his assimilation is made into a dominant/submissive thing, it can set an unhealthy foundation that will lead to problems.

What I'm taking from Sophia's post is not that she won't help him, but that helping/suporting him will not put her in a dominant role, it is just one thing she will do as part of her relationship with him. Just because she has to show him how to make a bank deposit doesn't mean she is taking on a motherly role with him. It's not the basis of a marriage, it's just a part of something you'd do for someone, anyone, who moves here.

You choose the dynamic you create in your relationship. Adjustment might cause some tension, just because it will be hard, but it certainly shouldn't make your relationship one of infantalizing your husband for 2 years until he feels comfortable with the freeway exits.

I know I am a slow processer and not always clear at exprerssing exactly what I mean here too. Let me try again.



I'm not saying I wont help my husband adjust. I will be available for whatever he needs from me as support. I do not see my role as taking the initative in helping him adjust. He will learn as he goes along. He is likely to suffer from culture shock. It won't be smooth and easy, but it is his process to go through. My role is just there for support- to be the wife. In oder to acclimate to a new culture he has to take ownership of his adjustment. I can;t make him adjust. The adjustment has nothing to do with me. It's all internal in him.



I tell my fiance, that he may find it difficult to adjust here, but at the end of everyday, he will be able to take refuge in our home, where things are a little more like his expectations of life because we share the same values and expectations of home, family and friends.



If i were to go to Morocco. I would always be asking questions about what this means or how does this operate. There is a huge adjustment to make in any culture. I remember how difficult the little daily things were to figure out when I was living in Rome (esp since my Italin was limited) I was so proud of myself the first time I navigated my way through the bank and came out with money. If I were in Morocco, my adjustment is my adjustment and all my husband can do is love me, support me and encourage me.

I agree that it is all in the way each individual understands the situation. Some may call it submissive and some may not.
doodlebug, I quite like your interpretation of what Jackie said...
I have seen so many ppl (who were 100% comfortable with their relationships) become so paranoid before the interview that they are seriously afraid their spouse will take off once issued the visa. Who knows..you, me, any of us may end up feeling the same way. Nobody ever wants to believe that they are going to be blindsided by the one they thought they could count on to stay with them forever and always. But you see it every day... There are many ppl who come back to VJ to let ppl know they found out they were used by their spouse just for a green card....it is a scary thing to think about. That is why I believe in always doing a little something special for my husband (and yes he does these little things for me as well) If we continue doing things like this, we will keep the happiness alive and the relationship won't go dead.

If they used their spouse for a green card, maybe if such small acts of kindness are always applied (given and taken) they will end up staying and loving their spouse more than they ever imagined and nobody would be the wiser...
If none of these acts are applied, why would they even second guess leaving...why try to maintain a boring relationship???
in short, small acts can make or break you.....

ok i'll stop now hehehehehe

yes thank you. You can now be incharge of responding to all posts on my behalf

I agree that doing little special somethings is important in any marriage. I think it's a problem when the reason that you're doing these things is to keep your husband from running.

I also believe that if it was a man's intention to use a woman for a green card, there is nothing that you can do to change that. He will leave eventually, no matter how perfect of a wife you are and how many special things you do. I hate to think that a woman would fault herself in this situation.

Exactly. I also think it's HIGHLY INSULTING to even remotely suggest a woman whose SO used her and/or left her right after the GC was approved that he did so because she possibly didn't do enough little, big, or otherwise, things FOR him.

If the man I married was the type of low life scum that would use a person for a green card, good riddance. Not saying it wouldn't hurt, but I don't want to be with someone that immoral and sick in the head. Besides, I don't believe acts of kindness will reach the core of someone like this. They may stick around because it is cheaper to split the bills and convenient to have meals cooked, but that is not the kind of man I care to be with.

Beautifully put.



I wonder how many times the marriage was entered to with sincerity, but it failed because of these types of relationship issues. The USC could then claim he only wanted a greencard completely blind to her own role in causing the marriage to fail. Bi-national relationships have their own dynamics. I am not sure if all American women completely understand the waters they are navigating.

so I have yet again been misunderstood. That is ok. No worries
I, In no way said that a person HAS to do those things in order to keep someone around that never loved them in the first place. If It came off that way, I do apologize. I was trying to say that it is the small things that keep things alive.

Think about something for a second...
1. If someone uses you for a green card, you don't know you're being used and you think everything is ok.
2. If you both are respecting each other in the ways afore mentioned in previous posts, then the whole "love factor" can bloom into something never imagined and in turn become the best relationship (this is of course hypothetically speaking and not always going to be the case) (have any of you ever seen the movie Green Card where they don't love each other but end up falling in love and it is the most awesome thing ever)
3. What is so wrong if #2 happens? Nothing wrong with finding happiness even if it began with different intentions. (as in the movie Green Card- i use this coz this is the perfect example of what I'm trying to get accross)
4. If the spouse used you purely for green card and nothing else PERIOD.. then sure, they're going to leave anyway but at least you can't fault yourself and say you didn't do everything in your power to be honest and show your love. They can't blame you either. That way the blame lies purely on them.

I hope this explains it a little bit better and if not, I guess I'll try to explain it in a better way. Maybe one of you "gets" my point and can help me explain my thoughts better? (it is so hard to explain things in typing for me..uggg

Reads the same to me as it did the first time.

The problem with #3, in my opinion, is that immoral, rephrensible, disgusting, low-life, fradulent intentions are the "different" intentions you are talking about. Someone is lying, someone is using, and someone is decieving. I don't believe anything that starts out this way has a proper foundation. That is like saying that if I had several affairs when my husband thought I was faithful and I get my crap together and start acting like a faithful wife, it is ok. No harm, no foul? I don't agree. I also don't believe people should profit from crimes. And marriage fraud is a crime.

In "Green Card", both parties were aware of their intentions. This is not the case when someone is being used.

I'm glad you brought that up about the movie "green card". I know they were both aware fo their intentions but I was mainly speaking on the basis of the whole thing in general.
I'm not saying it is "OK" for a person to use another person. I think it is wrong all the way around. I would never get over it if I found that my husband had used me. I was only trying to show how small things can completely change ones attitude towards their significant other.
I was using an example, that is all. NO I don't think those actions are ok...did it work to explain the effects of small things? I think it did.

I think small things should be a given in any marriage, or in any relationship with someone you care for. What started the latest part of this thread wasn't about whether or not people should do small things but a discernible change in behavior at the time of the 10-year green card. The latter part of that message also didn't resonate with me -- when the man is less reliant you can either make your relationship stronger OR give him a reason to leave. This implies that the glue of the first two years of marriage was his dependency and once he is self-reliant, assimilated, and has a 10-year card, a transformation in the woman is required, ("It's in your power"). Make it stronger or give him a reason to leave.

My marriage is not rooted in his assimilation or reliancy on me, so there is no major shift that is going to happen at 2 years, the green card, etc. I also cannot wrap my mind around not "giving him a reason to leave". My behavior towards my husband is what I feel is right, not what is meant to make him stick around once he no longer needs to rely on me. Also it isn't in "my" power, because it is about two of us working TOGETHER for a marriage and again, not me working to keep him from leaving. If you relate, ok, each relationship is different but none of this hits home for me.

Let's face it. Even in this progressive, secular nation, the notion that the wife is responsible for the home and her husband's happiness is still prevalent. That's why there is still debate wbout whether women can "have it all", career, family, and happiness. The answer, we are told, is still "NO".

Just an observation.

I think it really goes both ways now, we're just discussing it from the woman's viewpoint so it sounds sexist. The same can be said about the man's side of things that are being said about the woman's. A man can make his marriage work or not too - he can choose to be pleasant to get along with, do his share around the house, spend his money wisely on the family, not only on himself, be a good father, etcetera.

I think if we addressed the male side of this we would see a lot more equality in what is being said here. I also saw that those who posted here that they spoil there husbands also said that their husbands spoil them too. Did I miss something?

I think this is exactly what Amal was trying to say (Sorry Amal if I spoke incorrectly for you). Each partner treats the other with special thoughtful things. It keeps the romance alive and blooming.

I don't relate to "or give hima reason to leave the marriage" in the literal sense. If you look at that phrase loosely, it can come accross differently (at least it did for me).
Here is the way I related it to my personal experiences. Husband got here..we were soooooooooo happy. I thought I had everything all figured out. For the most part, I did. There were some things I did have to change. I had to tweak some of my behaviors because it caused some seriously big and heated discussions of which I really hated having. We didn't really argue but one of us would get our feelings hurt and it was just a mess.

I say that I had to change because of the following:
I was a total slob, lazy, ate boxed or canned meals (anything microwavable and preferrably pasta), didn't care if the living room had toys everywhere, didn't care about my clothes being wrinkled...etc (hard to admit but it is the truth)
HE got tired of cleaning up after me, hates pasta, preferred a clean home always, likes ironed clothes etc.
It was not his job to become lazy and sloppy, I think it was much healthier for me to learn how to keep things more kept-up (just my perspective) I still don't iron clothes and the laundry stays in baskets in the bedroom for EVER until I get tired of them being in the way.. but everything else, we've got it all worked out now. I've gotten better and he's lightened up enough that we both give 50/50 (or yes 100/100 for those of you who prefer this way) and its great now!

So,you see, If I didn't do something to make the relationship stronger, then I was only going to give him more of a reason to leave (in lighter definition, give him reasons to be mad all the time and end up causing the whole household to be upset and who wants to live that way--) It was easier for me to change myself than it was to deal with the problems) in my case, though, the things i had to change were things that i should have change to begin with..I just needed help...

I will also add that it is not always just the woman that has to change...the man sometimes has to do some serious changing as well to provide a harmonious atmosphere in the home. it does go both ways




No worries MBP. That is what I have tried to say and you definitely did not speak incorrectly.

I think you speak about every marriage - bi-national or not- with this experience. And though you were very honest about how your behaviors needed to change, I would bet your husband did make many adjustments too. In any healthy marriage it has to happen. I think the important thing is the changes we make in ourselves should be changes we want to make without sacrificing our identities. Just to be clear I do not think your examples of change in anyway show this latter extreme change.

ohhhh you bet he did .... He made sooooooooooo many adjustments, I don't know where I would even begin. I'm sure that there are things he has changed within himself that I am completely unaware of that were big things to him.

I LOVE THAT MAN

Amal,

I agree with all this but I think this is normal in any marriage. Both parties have to adjust/grow/adapt.

The difference between this and the original post is what you describe isn't tied to his 10-year green card or his assimilation. It is tied to the adjustments any couple goes through when they move in together. The other post related a change incumbent upon the woman in relation to the husband receiving his 10-year green card and/or his assimilation in order to make it work and keep him from splitting.

Rebecca

Any woman entertains the notion that changing her fundamental sense of being to "adjust" to her husband in order to keep the marriage is setting herself up for a life of unhappiness.

I do apologize for not being able to explain that. Just kick me I think a lot of ppl are worried, when it comes to the 10 year card, that now is the moment of truth. Now is when you'll know for sure if they were honest with you. Some people feel the need to do things to ensure their spouse won't leave. I'm sure that if someone used you for a green card, nothing you could do could make them stay with you. I do agree with that. I know of some people who both she and her husband were so stressed out by the waiting for the 10 year card that they both became total bears to each other and both had to do some serious tweaking in their attitudes/actions until the 10 year card was obtained. Another friend of mine almost got a divorce due to the stress level of all of the interviews and such. (They could barely be in the same room together without fighting)so maybe that is the kind of thing she is referring to? (Sorry Jackie if this was not your intention, it was just my take on it)

here's a novel idea to keeping a marriage together- How about being a successful confident woman and not getting involved with any man who would settle for less?

it would be nice if there were enough men out there to handle all us smart and confident ladies! hehe
STRONG WOMEN UNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITE

whoa back up...it takes ten years to get a greencard?

no no not 10 years to get it......get it and it is good for 10 years

If the marriage is less than two years old, a 2-year green card is granted intitially. Two years after that, you apply to get the 10-year green card.

we get the glory of applying for the 10 yr green card in 10 months...*shudders* I hate applying for important stuff like that..I SUCK at paperwork ....