OK, first let me say I am not trying to do anything more but get some understanding of things that I see are in conflict.

First, I don't understand the difference between friends and buddy/pal that is made to seem different in this article. And I don't know why it's so dangerous for a spouses to cross this line. Can someone explain?

Second, can someone explain to me how there is equality in a marriage when the husband is considered the shepherd of the family? The guide for each 'F' seems relatively straight forward and decent. But I don't understand how in one sentence, there is equality in child rearing, decision making, budget making, etc, but then in another, the husband is the shepherd and "most" responsible for his "flock". I do not see how these two things reconcile.

Third, which tags on to #2, how can the husband be the head of the family if his wife must (meaning, she can't choose not to, because the rent has to get paid) contribute her earnings in order for the household to survive? If he's not working or if he doesn't make enough to support the family, doesn't it seem some of these tenets are, for lack of a better term, voided?

There is a thread in OT right now about working moms and sick time and flex time, etc. People have suggested several things, but one of the thoughts is, if a wife must contribute to a household financially, plus take care of the home, any idea of one of the spouses being "head of household" over the other goes out the window.

Ok, that's it. These have been questions for me for years, but never seem to get an answer that makes sense to me. Have at it, I truly am curious how this is all reconciled.

ETA: the statement about pals & the husband in the leadership role really irks me. To me it says you can't get too close to each other because then you certainly cannot have a husband who leads and a wife who follows. Help!!!

I have thought about this too. How does a couple take on traditional roles if the woman is the primary breadwinner, which in itself is non-traditional?

is jordacheprincess better?

hehehehe.... I was "shown" how to cut tomatoes, cucumbers, onions (most veggies), wash chicken in vinegar, water, 3 or 4 times etc.., rinse meat, rinse the rice (that one is my biggest pet peeve)


hehe I did figure that was the reason why but when I tried to explain that to him he said "what is wrong with being more careful and being safe"? I can't argue with that so he ALWAYS prepares the chicken even if I am going to be cooking it .. he knows I won't do all that..it just takes too long...that works for me if he wants to do it
He definitely let me know the reasoning for the rice....EVERY TIME I tried to cook it he would tell me why I was doing it wrong and how it "wouldn't work" my way etc... I know it is to get the hair and bugs and stuff out of it and it is supposed to make it cook better... again, I can't argue with that either...so therefore he always prepares the rice .. on both the chicken and rice, I told him ..."if you don't like the way I do it, please, do it yourself" so he does.


hehehehe I told my husband that and he said ... yes but now you will be more healthy than before.. (the funny thing is that if I cook it while he is at work, he likes my chicken better than the chicken he prepares....shhhhhh don't tell him I told you)



I honestly didn't know that! Thanks for the heads up... I will never thaw out chicken in warm water again...as god as my witness!! lol




lol before my husband got here, my rice ways were the same as yours... I don't even attempt to cook rice anymore.. He won't even eat it coz he knows I didn't rinse it LOL it just makes me laugh to think about it.. It did really hurt my feelings when he refused to eat though. I would rather just let him do it than have my feelings hurt. yes i'm a wuss...

by the way..I know everyone was trying to get back on topic but I just got home from work and this is the first time this afternoon that I've gotten to look in on VJ so I just HAAAAAD to comment on this.

amal

I can't answer honestly from anyones viewpoint but my own. And really on only a couple of the items you question. So let me throw in my 2 cents.

Buddy/friend. When I think of how a man treats his male buddy I can honestly say I don't want to be treated the same. Lets face it, men can be such pigs, and the things they say to each other floors me. If my husband was to say these same things to me in front of my children it would foster in them a lack of respect for me as their mother. Now a friend, I view that more as a person you respect. My husband and I consider each other our best friend. We tell each other things we never tell anyone else, and we respect each others privacy. This is how I view that, but if others see it differently, thats cool.

Second point. The husband is the shepard of his flock. As it stated, this is a burden on him. Why? To me it means that he is the example of our family. If he wants his family to be good he must be good, if acts foolishly then his family will more than likely stray from good moral standards. So why isn't this placed on the woman? Women recieve the highest blessing merely by giving birth. Not only that, I believe that the majority of women are born with a sense of right and wrong where as a man don't have this same sense. In most cases the mother leads the children to the right way by example naturally. A man has to work harder at it.

Okay, now that last one I am sure that many of you will disagree with me, and thats okay. Of course I am giving to me what is the rule of thumb. I am well aware that there are going to be some men that are born with a natural sense of right and wrong, and women who aren't.

You know after reading this I realize that I really do hate men don't I?


Stop pick on Jordanionprincess!

I think that back in the day the man was the head of household even tho both ppl were supposed to be equal. In the home they shared the responsibility but if there was ever an emergency, the man was the one to talk to. Kind of reminds me of my family growing up... My mom was the main person in the house..anything we needed or wanted, we asked her. She payed the bills, bought groceries, clothed us, etc etc all the mom jobs. My father worked outside the home and brought home the bigger of the 2 paychecks. He took care of all the maintenance of the home.. If something broke, he fixed it....If the sewer was clogged in negative degree weather, he was outside digging to fix it...If anything went wrong, he fixed it. If there was ever a big decision to be made..Mom didn't make it on her own..she ALWAYS had to get Dads input on it. They both made the decision together (showing the equality of both man and woman) but he "took care" of anything that went wrong and brought home most of the money (showing that he was the head of the family. Without him, the family wouldn't have been in sync.
That leads me to say.. They were heads of different aspects of the home... 1 was in charge of making sure the basic things for survival were always there (money, mechanics, Big decisions) and the other was in charge of putting the basic things for survival into use.

hehe...my last paragraph .... it totally reminds me of how work is set up.. u have the "big boss" .. he owns the store and comes in to make all the decisions but doesn't understand squat of where the things he buys goes... and then there are the ppl he pays... we take care of everything in his business but he is still considered the head of the store (even though WE are the ones that keep the business running) ...

This is just the way I understand it and everybody is allowed their own opinion on it. I hope it shed a little light on your dilema and wonder..... If not, well..It brought back some good good memories


amal

Shepards and sheep belong outdoors. There will be none in our house.

(except the sheep did enter for Eid in Morocco )

But I bet he never left.

One-third of it did.

Ours was dead, skinned and hung upside down to drain. Just a hint for hubby.

who's hubby? I'm confused.

Bosco it looks like your avatar is very trendy.

poop

Sheep videos

Sheep Video #1

Sheep Video #2

Makes you wonder who is smarter

IM IN UR THREAD
DERAILIN THE TOPIC

I hope you weren't referring to trains in any way.

All this talk about men as the head of the household and shepard of the flock makes me wonder come most muslim households I know the women are in charge of all the money and the men get allowances. Who is really the head and what does that mean?

I think everyone should read peezey's response to what rahma posted.

Trains, wha?

I'm just bored and tired but not sleepy...


And the sheep videos were kinda funny but WEIRD. Those guys must have been really f'in bored or high on something to make those.

BRB, I'm off to find a goat to star in my next movie "The Art of Foosball and Making Goat Cheese"

What did I miss? drats now i have to got back and search

Not much, I just asked something similar earlier.

Ahhhhhh... the fine art of generalizations and "the other guy".

Now you have hit the nail on the head. The key is that the men THINK they are in charge, and we let them think that. But lets face it, the women hold all of the cards in a marriage. Now I have to go back and see those sheep videos.

I don't necessarily agree with this either, because I feel both should hold the cards (actually, I don't like game metaphors about marriage either - so I think both should be equal partners in a marriage ); however, women here have stated that the man *is* their leader and their shepherd and they want it that way - not that they only want him to *think* he is.

ETA: I actually think you are right - it is the case in most marriages I know. However, not want I wanted in my own marriage.

I can't get the sheep videos to work!

You know, I have been in charge of everything for so many years I would gladly give up a lot of the responsibilities. Not that he would be in charge, just responsibilities I am tired of. But you are right, a marriage should be a partnership. I was just being flippant.

It has been wonderful having my husband here to help with all the responsibilities I have been shouldering alone for a while (and I hope yours is soon there with you).

On another note, I think sometimes people fall in the trap of making this something bigger than it really is. There are certain things both people should do in a marriage, basics, that should be automatic. However, I often hear women saying "he is a good man, he comes home each night" or "he spoils me because he takes care of the yard and my car". Aren't these things expected? Not saying we shouldn't appreciate them, but that these are not *special* things or extras (or should not be IMO). Reminds me of Chris Rock's standup from many years ago, although I would not repeat the language he used He did a bit about people wanting credit for what they should normally be doing. I think many people are also quick to give credit for what should be normal behavior, as if being treated nicely by your husband is above and beyond, rather than a reasonable expectation. I know past experiences can play into this, but I also think we have to be careful not to lower our standards. When ordinary behavior rises to the level of "sweet", I think the scale is broken.

You know, if a women WANTS her husband to be the leader, so be it, whatever makes her happy. To each their own. I'm just perfectly content with each person giving equally Both of us coming from previous bad marriages, We both went into our marriage knowing exactly what the other person was like and what we both expected out of a marriage. He knows I'm strong willed and am set in my ways on some things just as he is. I have been repeatedly told how he will "make me do this or that" or "he will change you." Nothing like that at all. I don't want him to change and he doesn't want me to change.

I agree, if both parties are happy with their arrangement, nothing is wrong.

The question was raised if it is possible for the man to be leader if he isn't the breadwinner, or primary breadwinner. If the woman *must* work in order for the bills to be paid, can he still be leader of the house?

I think this would depend on their relationship. My husband is talking behind me right now and he says it's not a matter of being a "leader" it's a matter of doing what needs to be done. For example, he isn't working now so he does a lot of the housework, cooking and walks to the the kids from school (I'm so lucky!) while I work. So he says we are both equal leaders in the home, in his words, meaning there is no leader since we work together as a unit to make the family work. He says even kids can be leaders at times. (I think we'll have to dicuss this later! LOL) He also said the Prophet Muhammed was helping with the housework along with his wives and Muhammed said the best man is the good helper for his family.

Sounds like you have a good man. I find the sunnah people choose to call upon can be very telling, and I think it is nice your husband related this one.

I do make it a point to thank my husband for the little things. For when I am in a pissy mood and he does his best to lighten my spirit. For taking care of me when I was sick, for remembering some of my favorite foods when he was at the store, etc. Maybe it is expected since he is my husband, but it sure feels good to be appreciated. In turn, he also thanks me for the little things as well. This is what works for us.

As far as being the breadwinner, I honestly don't think my husband will be able to surpass my income, so I am simply looking forward to his income being a nice cushion. I don't see how who makes the most money determines who is "in charge" of the relationship. When I was married before and was a stay at home mom I was still "in charge" of everything. Not by choice but because my ex is a slacker. If I didn't take care of everything it didn't get done. I have made it clear to my husband that I am away at work for 11 hours a day (long commute), and if he wants a home cooked meal then we are doing it together. He balked a little at first, but once I made it clear he agreed. I much prefer a home cooked meal over take out as well, so hopefully he follows through once he is here, otherwise he will have to get used to the food I am used to preparing which is quick rather than his meat and potatoes that he likes.

I definitely think we should appreciate and show appreciation for these things. I mean more when a person is saying "my husband spoils me...... he comes home every night". Or when a woman tells you about her husband being verbally cruel but then attempting to justify it when she says "he is sweet....... he put away the dishes last night". It seems in some cases the whole measure of what is normal is askew. Of course we should never take our spouses for granted, but I also don't think certain acts should be elevated to something more than what they are (and this is often done in trying to explain away serious problems).

I know that is not what I was getting at. I think some of what we are guilty of is that we view these marriages through American lenses. All this talk about husbands being heads of households, Aericans are tainted by years (unconsious mostly) of western beliefs rooted deep in a male dominated- sometimes misogynic- ideology. A MENA spouse was raised in a culture with a completely different social and religious history.



Every culture has norms for the role of men and women. The american culture still struggles with what these roles should be and how they should be defined. The woman's civil rights movement challenged some long standing cultural norms and this impacted both men and women. The industrial revolutoin has the same impact.



I guess my point is we can't measure MENA cultural norms through our lenses. The muslim women I know who are in charge of the money (and yes it is a generalizetion, but it is true more than it is not true in the 20 years I have been part of this community) do not act as if they are lettng their husbands think they are the boss when thhe women know they really are. This division of finacial responsibility is seen as a social norm- that is to say- keeping the finances is withinthe scope of the women's responsibility.



The problem is from the western POV she must be stepping ourside the norm. She isn;t.

I think it is a combination of viewing things through American lenses and some men realizing the women do not know the real norms and playing off this ignorance. They sell them this vision of this is what they should have and how it should be and the women buys into it because of her western POV of MENA roles.

Anyone every heard the term "cultural roadbumps"? I think it is soooo common in bi-national marriages. You atwo are just moving so smoothly down the road of life and then BUMP. Someone says something or does something and our cultural perceptions kick in and we might as well have seen and heard two different things. I think this is what causes most disconnects in a bi-national mariage. Once you can get out of your own shoes and see something for what it is from your partners POV the easier it is to keep moving down the road.

We try to avoid labelling our roles according to either of our cultural upbringing. Nothing bothers me more than the idea that a certain type of work is "women's work" while another type is "men's work". If Wadi asks me to do something citing the reason as "because you're a woman", that really upsets me, and I ask him to phrase it differently. I don't know, maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine. I don't mind doing most of the cooking and cleaning. But that's because I'm better at it than he is, not because I think it's my job. If I ask him to look at something wrong with my car, it's not because I think that's a man's job, but because it's something I don't know how to do.

I don't know if this makes any sense. Perhaps I'm just calling one thing another here.

I understand exactly what you mean. I hate cars and Idir loves them. I love to cook and idir doesn't. It happens to fall along traditional lines, but so what? If I have to go and change te oil in the car I can and if he needs to prepare dinner he can.

so you are saying men are more mechanically inclined?

I said my man is more mechanically inclined than this woman.

PLEASE, let's not go there!! I've taken a cooking class and an auto repair class!! I can change the oil in my car if I want . . . but I prefer not too only because I don't have the tools and the time. I have to eat so I will cook . . . just so happens that I find baking cookies very soothing . . . and not so dirty as trying to repair a car!

My original questions was based on the Muslim article and so I really did want to understand how these things are reconciled in a muslim marriage, although I realize culture is a significant part of the "answer", especially when we are talking about bi-cultural marriages, no matter both spouses being muslim.

What you say is certainly true, and we cannot expect a bi-cultural marriage to succeed if we cannot remove ourselved from our POV to see the other, and not just see it but accept some things that might seem quite contrary to our own experiences growing up, our parents' partnerships, or our previous marriages.

Still, I would like to know someday how to reconcile the things I asked about earlier. But, they've been long-standing questions I've had, for many years, and since I haven't been able to get an answer yet, that's probably indication they are very hard to answer.

I'm not Muslim, but I think I have an answer. Religion does not change as quickly as society does. Simple as that. All of those "rules" are outdated.

Like I said before... if someone EXPECTS difference, woot there it is.

If not, acceptance of what is steps in and no more bump.

I have done auto repair work and my husband knows not one thing about it. Blows that theory doesn't it!

but it sure is fun baiting the trap for jenn

i'm the same way about being in charge for years I can't wait until I can pass it off to Rachid.... I did agree with your response... it was correct.... I would not want to be in charge of the family like that in that way... it is a huge responsibility and stress....