I think it's drive by time when the posts go above 200

I agree that it went a bit far on my end but I also admit that when I try to get my point accross, I will talk about it until I feel that my point is understood (it is a bad bad habit of mine). I wasn't online yesterday to really realize it had died..I didn't look at the time of the last post that was "on topic" (no, I wasn't saying this in a snotty way) I didn't even think of when the last comment was said. I just commented on what I read when I logged in again. I do apologize if I was the sole reason for reviving the topic. I think the train wreck happened before I came back though. When I came on this morning, I commented on how the mud started flying when I was gone....... I also agree that my marriage does not exactly apply to the so called rules but I was hoping that I could use my marriage as a somewhat decent example. I was wrong and I sincerely apologize for that. (I hope you'll still share your cookies with me I didn't lick every strawberry in the other thread...I'll share it with you )

There was somebody else I wanted to reply to but just realized I didn't get their quote added and I don't remember who it was (I apologize for that). They asked me why I kept speaking on Jackies behalf. I would like to answer that question. The reason I keep trying to fix what she said is because she and I spoke outside VJ for quite a long time and I got the full meaning of what she was trying to convey. I really thought I could help everybody see her point of view but I have to now accept the fact that I can't make everybody see what I understood. That is ok and I don't hold it against anybody as we are all allowed our opinions. Her thoughts were difficult for me to understand but I did finally see where she was coming from. Personally, what she meant and what she said don't match up exactly (sorry Jackie) and that is another reason I was trying to explain it. I didn't mean any harsh feelings by it. I just like to try to help ppl when I know they are being misunderstood. A lot of times it comes back to bite me in the butt ...and thats ok too..it happens.

I do want to thank those of you who let me know you supported what I was trying to say and let me know that you "got it". Even though you didn't all agree completely you understood the point I was trying to make and supported me. THANKS

amal

It might be a public forum but it has a TOS so people cannot respond however they want without consequence.

Thank you! But for the record, I got what you were saying and what Jackie was saying. IMO, I see no reason as to why you should be apologizing! It's interesting to me to see the people that do apologize and much more interesting to see the people that don't apologize.

If the bolded part is true, then why could this not have been said? Why were people replied to with cursing and told they had on rose-colored glasses if it was simply a matter of the first post not clearly expressing what was meant? If I posted something that was clearly misunderstood, I would attempt to clarify myself rather than what went down.

Sorry Amal, this really all sounds like backpedaling to me, especially being the first post started with the expectation of a negative reaction. And since tone cannot be conveyed, there is no attitude here, just calling it like I see it. I think you are a good friend to Jackie and I think because of this, it is filtering how you see it, rather than how we all see it.

Consequences are nonexistent in this forum, IMO. If/when it would happen, honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the results.

I will say that I didn't bold anything.... I just didn't edit her post. I don't actually agree with the bolded part but its her opinion and that is just fine with me. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.
Secondly, I never once said I agreed with her cursing and saying ppl had rose colored glasses. I said I understood her initial post and maybe in my own defense as well since after speaking with her, I did agree with the intention. I was defending her but also defending my own thoughts. I also see the alternative points of view but I felt that nobody was getting the other side so I was beating the dead horse thinking that I was helping to clarify it. that is why I was apologizing and in no way am I backpedaling. I simply apologized for what I did that was wrong and yes I should have just kept my mouth shut. That was my own fault for trying to explain one side of a story. I should know better than to try to help anybody but oh well..what is done is done. I definitely respect your opinion and I always look forward to what you are going to say. I love getting into debates with you. I like your levelheadedness (sp? is it even a word hehe) I hope this doesn't hinder further discussions between us.

I will always share my cookies with you as long as you don't lick them all

Also, I completly understand what you are saying AND what Jackie is saying. They are just 2 completly seperate things.

Obviously one cannot say anything they want to the extent of insulting, cursing etc. without consequences but I think that is clear. I just hate how Jean acts so above all the drama when she really likes to be in the middle of it. It's very annoying. Jean what is the purpose of pointing that out to us?

I am going to try to make this my last post on this thread. I feel I owe an explanation to the group and a thank you to those that have messaged me in private.

I have communication with many woman that have Jordanian husbands. Some are wives of Mohammed's friends. Some are women I have met online from around the country from other sites. Since some of these friendships are now more than 4 years old, I have seen the outcome of what happens after the SO comes over. More often than not, the wife that steadfastdly swears that nothing will change, finds out in sometimes a bittersweet way that life isn't what she thought it was. I was speaking from the experience of seeing these marriages either fail or succeed. I now know that I could have worded it differently. No one usually takes heed to what I type anyway, this really caught me be suprise.

I apoligize for the mess here and will go back to my 'behind the scenes' support that I offer to the ones that are having a painful wait.


Jackie

Amal,

I bolded part of your post to show you what I specifically was replying to. I didn't think that you were agreeing with the cursing or rose-colored glasses, but that if she was just misunderstood, her followup replies didn't seem to back this. When our friends post something outrageous, we often try to see it in the best light or give some softer meaning that really isn't there, because we like our friend and we know them to normally think differently. I mean backpedaling in the sense that her words were clear, and trying to soften them because of your understanding of her as a friend really doesn't change what they said.

I think everyone understood what you were saying and most agreed - but saw what you were saying and what was in her post as two totally different things.

Again, I cannot convey tone and nothing here is said with any attitude.

hehe i'm a dumb butt...i saw what you bolded...sorry .. now I have to go read it ...again sorry

You've used this same phrase on me before and here is my response:


A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood

From Self-Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Sorry Jackie, but being a Jordanian myself and around them all my life...this is not a cultural thing with us. Men in particular if you are saying Jordanian men would not leave a women because she didn't do those things if they love you. I know plenty of women who don't do a thing around the house and in Jordan more often than not they have maids to do this stuff. It has nothing to do with where you are from. I'm sorry but please don't try to pin this on them being Jordanian.

You are not a dumb butt and no apologies are necessary between us.

so so literal,,i meant that my only point of reference was from that point of view. I adore the people of Jordan, don't try to make it sound like I don't.

Jackie

Having been involved in several online groups for american women with muslim husbands for the past 4 years, I've seen this happen quite often as well, with husbands from across the muslim world. I understand where you're coming from

I think I'm confused about what's happened here, but I'm not sure.

Oh, well.

I am not making it sound like you don't like the people of Jordan, but what you are describing and your reference to only Jordanian couples is not true. If you saw marriages crumble because a woman didn't cook and clean then it wasn't because of that even if they tried to use that as the reason. In general, there are plenty of things a Jordanian man will insist on with his wife but cooking and cleaning is not even on that list and marriage is also taken very seriously there more so than other arab countries. A man with good intentions would not leave for that reason.

ok, i re-read the post (with the bolded part) and please kick me for missing it the first time (we all aren't perfect as i so nicely just proved) lol
I agree that I shouldn't have tried to explain anybodies actions and some people may have definitely thought that what I was saying was not the same as her. Even so, I was bent on getting everybody to see what I saw that I couldn't stop. I just KNEW that everybody would see my point. Jackie is a good friend to me and that is also another reason I felt I could speak on her behalf. I know that she is not as weak as everybody made her out to be and it just ruffled me to think that ppl saw her in a bad way. I did want to defend her coz she is one of the strongest ppl I know and I felt she deserved to have someone stand up for her. I always try to help my friends. I tried to help her and I would try to help any one of you if I felt I fully understood what you were saying...YES ANY ONE OF YOU... My biggest problem is that I get on an tangent and ramble till my fingers turn blue...I have got to learn to stop rambling like I do ...but as I have said before, it is just how I am..
I understand that the tone being used can not be conveyed accurately here so I do not take anything you say to be snotty as I hope you take my words in an easy tone as well.

amal

Ask and we shall explain.

You've seen muslim husbands leave after the 2 year or 10 year card because the wife didn't meet his expectations inre housekeeping & cooking?

Oh Amal you know we love you...now stop rambling and apologizing and have some of these...

It's a bit more complex than that. Not everything comes across clearly in a message board posting, and it's obvious to me that there are a lot of underlying issues in these relationships and it can't be boiled down to whatever it's been made out to be in these last 20 pages of thread.

But then again, I'm just a kid in my first apartment, so what do I know?

I think this goes back to something Jenn and I brought up earlier. Everyone has conceded that there can be changes when they arrive, when you first move in together, etc. --- the normal growing pains. The difference between this and the post that triggered this discussion and why this conversation has carried on, is that the changes were tied to a 10-year green card and be able to leave his wife and remain in the country.

You obvlously know alot more than you think!

A cousin and I belonged to a few of those groups for a while. It was a strange experience, to say the least. I'm curious about people's experiences in them. Maybe I'll start a thread to ask about them.

If it is only Jordanian men/couples that she can reference to having knowledge of, what else would you have her reference jmagayreh' never once said all jordanian men, only the ones she had knowledge of via the contacts she has made.

It's actually been quite fascinating, and a little sad. There's one that was active 3 years ago, then went dormant and suddenly sprung to life again a few months back with many of the old regulars announcing their divorces.

Thankfully, there are a few old hats around who have been married to Egyptian men for 20+ years, so there is a glimmer of hope for us yet! inshaAllah my husband and I will be one of those couples in 17 years!

There are obviously lots of changes that can be made in a marriage and compromises as well, there is no disputing that. However if I was doing something for 2 years and my spouse didn't like it then why would he/she wait until right before to tell me to change? Why not ask right away? If he/she did ask right away, then what would be the reason for not doing that?

Fascinating is a good word for it. I remember a lot of divorces, too. My cousin got kicked out of one for saying what a lot of the women wanted to say about a situation, but were afraid to, and then alot of people left in disgust after that, including me. There was usually a lot of fighting and taking sides.

I hope your marriage lasts too!

You can clearly see that from her post she is tying the outcome of the marriage to the background of it. Sorry but this isn't about Jordanian, arabic, muslim or anything else. This is about people. I realize she didn't see ALL Jordanian men, and I never implied that she said that. I only said that to apply this way of thinking to couples because of their background is not right. Even if they are all Jordanian that doesn't mean anything at all.

I'm truly not being obtuse here, but I don't understand what is complex about changing yourself in order to keep your husband from leaving at either GC mark. I can relate to complex marriages and divorces. But if a partner enters the marriage with the goal of a GC and the plan to leave once it is obtained, it seems cut and dried to me.

Here's my two cents about "Muslim" husbands and the wives who don't do their "wifely" duties...

My ex nephew in law was married to his ex wife for about 4 yrs. She was an absolute slob and horrible cook (we once were invited for dinner and my ex and I had to fight over the bathroom). He didn't leave her for these reasons. Actually she kicked him out for reasons I'm not quite sure about...she was rather immature. She begged for him to come back to her but he didn't. During their separation he saw he was better off without her. It was her immaturity and conniving (sp) nature that pushed him away. Also...her lack of knowing how to deal with cultural issues.

whatever it is, i'm sure i'm to blame for it

I tried to get you to just sit and eat popcorn with me, Charles. Next time, do it!

probably much safer to do so

but rambling is what I doooooo I dunno how to shut up
*looks around the room* ooooooooooo cookies

DON'T lick them, I want one. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell Dr. Atkins.

Don't worry JP they are carb free.

Jackie

This isn't really directed at you, as much as it hit a pet peeve of Emerson.

'Great minds are often misunderstood' does not mean 'if I am misunderstood, I am a great mind', and maybe if Emerson had studied Socrates, and understood him, he would have picked up on that. To be great is to be misunderstood, but you can be an idiot and be misunderstood, too.

That goes double for Nietzsche.

are we supposed to pat you on the back for typing this up?

I was thinking something similar.

I am also reminded of the recent movie Little Miss Sunshine....the uncle (Steve Carrell) continuously says "did you know I'm the world's leading Proust scholar" every time he's running behind the VW bus to start it up. Totally nothing to do with anything, but that movie was funny.

I love that movie! So funny.

I agree it seems like some people can talk and talk and talk but in the end I am left with a lower IQ for reading their posts.

Okay, a little late, but I had to laugh about the snow shoveling. I have a huge driveway, and I tease my husband non stop about how one of his duties when he gets here is shoveling snow. In fact, he doesn't know this yet, but I plan on buying him a snow shovel for Christmas. Totally as a joke of course.

Now let me see if I understand what you are saying by stating how I feel. I am sick and tired of the one that does everything in the household. I have been in charge since I left my house at the age of 19 and I am tired of it. I want to live a life where the man takes control of all of the things I have done for the past several years and I can sit and I can bake a cake!

I already know this won't be the case in this marriage as well. He is a good man, but some things just aren't what he does best, so again I will be taking the reins in several things. For instance, organizing papers for his interview! I wish I had just done it for him and mailed it. He spent hours organizing and reorganizing, and it still wasn't organized. This I will take on in our marriage, and he has agreed to let me.

But as I read this I wonder how many people have taken the time to really discuss expectations in their marriage. I have taken the time to see the potential problems when he is here. Some things I can live with, some things I will change, some things he will change, and some things we have discussed and came to an agreement. Hopefully I have covered all ground. Hopefully we will see soon.



No ifs and or buts, he is out. Any man that has such low moral standards as intentionally using a woman, playing with her heart, and plans on leaving her in the end is not the kind of man I want to be married to, even if he found he loved me later. Furthermore, if I had any doubts now about my husbands intentions then I wouldn't be married. Nor would I change who I am for the purpose of keeping him here. If he want to leave I will show him the door. I am not saying it wouldn't hurt, it would. I am not saying I won't do things for him, I will. But NEVER for the purpose of keeping him with me. Like I stated, I don't want a man with the kind of character.

This has been an interesting thread, and I hope what I have said hasn't flaired anything, that isn't my intention. Just felt the need to voice my opinion. We are all entitled to choose how we run our marriages. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Oh my god you sooooo just re fueled this thread.... you're sooooo dead!


just kidding. I'm glad you did it now I won't get into trouble if I post here.

Ah yes Sarah, let me stir the shnit just a little. It was losing its stink! (just kidding) Besides I have now washed off my makeup, bathed, and am indulging in a piece of pecan pie. I am feeling much better now.

Our expectations (and what we lived before in Egypt) of marriage:

"Don't expect me to be an American husband."
"Don't expect me to be an Egyptian wife."
"Let's just be Mohammed and Jean as always."

Good enough for me.