Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: HIP Hijab
VisaJourney.com > General Discussion Area > Regional Discussion > Middle East and North Africa

Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
Veiled Princess
Hip HIJAB
Head-covering scarf is a symbol of faith

BY PATRICIA MONTEMURRI

October 21, 2006

photo

Sarah Hekmati, a mental health and substance abuse therapist who lives in Pontiac, shops for her hijabs at Mekkah Inc. in Dearborn. (J. KYLE KEENER)

More American women who follow the Muslim faith are wearing a hijab, the head-covering scarf that publicly identifies them as a follower of Islam. The hijab can be just a square of cloth, folded in half and pinned under a woman's chin. Or some hijabs are custom-made, lightweight gear in which a premade opening is fashioned to snuggly frame the woman's face and cover her hair, neck and shoulders. The hijab is a symbol of a Muslim woman's faith and modesty. Thousands of Muslim women in Michigan wear a hijab (pronounced hee-JAHB) in public. Hijabs vary in color, cut and fabric, and women can treat them as fashion accessories to coordinate with their outfits. This week, Muslims will celebrate Eid al-Fitr, which will mark the end of the Ramadan fast. The Eid festivities bring together families and communities for celebration, and it's not unusual to buy outfits and matching hijabs for the get-togethers. While some non-Muslims may consider the hijab a symbol of female oppression and second-class status, Muslim women say it was a choice they made to renew their relationship with God, and identify with their faith rather than stereotypes. Hijabis -- as women who cover their hair call themselves -- say they aim to strengthen their faith and challenge stereotypes about Muslims reignited in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. A 2003 University of Michigan survey of Detroit-area Muslim Arabs found that 42% felt their religion was not respected by mainstream society, with Muslim women more likely than men to share that view. Muslim women -- who come from various ethnic backgrounds -- aim to command respect for their faith by wearing the hijab, says professor Rabab Abdulhadi, director of the Center for Arab American Studies at the University of Michigan-Dearborn. "The majority of the women who have chosen to wear the hijab chose it by themselves. They didn't grow up with it," the professor says. "It is an assertion of identity ... a sign of distinction and definition, and sometimes a sign of defiance."

Sarah Hekmati

Who she is: 25, of Pontiac, is married and a mental health and substance abuse therapist for Oakland Family Services.

Why she wears the hijab: As a youngster growing up in Arizona and Nebraska, Sarah did not have regular contact with a larger Muslim community. When her family moved to Michigan, they encountered a thriving Muslim community. Here, says Sarah, "I felt like I had some identity and I wanted to portray that identity by wearing the hijab."

The reaction: Sarah began wearing it in ninth grade. Her parents thought it was teenage rebellion. Her family is from Iran, where women are forced to cover themselves. Relatives thought she was embracing what some consider a veil of oppression. Her mother and sister, who do not wear hijabs, feared she would draw negative attention. "Once they were able to see I could maintain friends who were Muslims and non-Muslims, they felt more comfortable."

After the 9/11 attacks, some of Sarah's college classmates removed their hijabs because they feared a backlash. Now, she says, more Muslim women "are standing up to portray their identity even more and counter the negative."

The impact: Sarah's stylish outfits shape her clients' impressions of her. The head-covering scarf may have them wondering if she's a conservative prude or has some sense of modern culture, she says. Her chic dress and hip hijab shows she's "observant of my values and my beliefs, but on the same note, I am American just like you are, and I go shopping at the same places you do," she says.

Mimo Debryn

Who she is: 42, of West Bloomfield, an office manager for a gastroenterologist, mother of three.

Why she wears the hijab: When she married, her husband converted to Islam, and the loss of a newborn led Mimo to refocus. "Tragedy leads you back to where you need to be," says Mimo, who was born in Beirut and immigrated to the United States in 1974.

The day she put on a hijab: Mimo and two friends promised to put on the hijab together but kept putting off the day. Then 12 years ago, her friend called and said she'd covered her head. Mimo and her other friend drove over and donned hijabs, too. Then, "we all picked up our kids from school, and we all looked different than we had that morning," Mimo recalls. "I had been blessed with two children. I remember thinking God has been so generous to me. The least I can do is fulfill my commitment. Now I don't remember my life without it."

What she gained from it: "It's a commitment. It's a personal choice. It's very liberating. It's very satisfying."

Antonietta Abuzeid

Who she is: 46, of Bloomfield Hills, a mother of two and a former private school teacher. Born in Italy and raised Catholic, she married an Egyptian-born doctor 28 years ago, converted to Islam in 1986, and put on the hijab when she was 40.

Why she wears the hijab: "It lets me express me, my modesty, my character, my respectability. It hopefully lets people look beyond what they see at first -- a body, clothing or other things. It lets me be judged by my actions and convictions."

The impact: The hijab opens doors for good discussions among people, which relieves fear about people supposedly different from others.

Hijab style: "I get compliments from people on how pretty my hijab is. I wear my hijab in my own way. I like to make my hijab match my other loose clothing. My hijab is my tie, elegant and respectable, adding the final touch to a suit. I usually won't buy a suit or outfit unless I find the right hijab to fit the suit."


Twist
melly
It occured to me, after reading this article, that most of us sisters would say that one of the reasons we like wearing hijab is because it lets people focus on who we are, not what our bodies/hair looks like.
Now, to me, wearing hijab is going to grab people's attention, at least where I live, but what I was thinking was, here are all these women saying they think hijab makes them so free, yet they're worried about matching hijab to the rest of what they're wearing, or making sure they have a bazillion different styles and colors. Sounds alot like what most non-Muslim women go through when picking out clothes - and about pleasing others.
I could be wrong of course, it's just a thought I had and only my opinion.
I have not started wearing hijab full time myself. I find it so peculiar that people use it as some form of measurement for how good a Muslim you are, when they may know nothing else of you, like if you pray 5 times a day, etc.

Henia
nice post VP...thanks
Mrs. Forgetful
This is a good article. THis is one subject I have been struggling with for a while. Thanks!
morocco4ever
QUOTE(melly @ Nov 2 2006, 12:16 AM) *

It occured to me, after reading this article, that most of us sisters would say that one of the reasons we like wearing hijab is because it lets people focus on who we are, not what our bodies/hair looks like.
Now, to me, wearing hijab is going to grab people's attention, at least where I live, but what I was thinking was, here are all these women saying they think hijab makes them so free, yet they're worried about matching hijab to the rest of what they're wearing, or making sure they have a bazillion different styles and colors. Sounds alot like what most non-Muslim women go through when picking out clothes - and about pleasing others.
I could be wrong of course, it's just a thought I had and only my opinion.
I have not started wearing hijab full time myself. I find it so peculiar that people use it as some form of measurement for how good a Muslim you are, when they may know nothing else of you, like if you pray 5 times a day, etc.


Sadly this is true. When I was in Morocco there was a couple of women in hijab that were pointing and laughing at me. I may not know much about Islam, but I do know that this behavior is not acceptable to a practicing muslim, so wearing the hijab certainly doesn't show to me that they are a good muslim.

I find it strange that there are women in Morocco that do this. I am not by any means out of ordinary here in the States so as to attract a lot of negative attention. I am of average height, and weight. fairly attractive, and I dress pretty normal by US standards. My husband was furious...lol

Maybe I am crazy here, but any religion is in our hearts, and no clothing or anything else material is going to have favor in Allah if they aren't practicing correctly. I see the same type of attitude here in the US though, just put up the appearance of following your religion.

As far as picking out your hijab, I have to admit, I would want a variety of colors and options. Not for anyone else, just so I can appease my mood for the day, and to please my husband as well. He wishes I would wear it...lol

Some women look absolutely fabulous in them, I am not one of them...
moody
Great article!

I will say that IMO wearing higab does not define how religious or pious one is. I feel religion is better defined in the actions of the individual. I used to wear higab full time and I don't feel I was any more pious or religious than I am now. If one chooses to wear higab..super! If you choose not too that doesn't mean you are less of a Muslim..IMO. I have known some not so great Muslimahs who wore full higab and I've known some really respectable and pious Muslimahs who do not wear higab. I def. wear it while I'm in Egypt because #1 I wear it out of respect for my husband and family and #2 I "blend" in better and don't get harrassed or stared at (the opposite of here in the states). From talking with Egyptian friends and family I've heard that it's becoming "fashionable" in Egypt to wear higab. Women aren't wearing it to be religious they're wearing it to be in fashion. Women there will wear tight tops and jeans and then wear an elaborate higab on top. What's the point?
Bosco
QUOTE(moody @ Nov 2 2006, 11:24 AM) *

Women aren't wearing it to be religious they're wearing it to be in fashion. Women there will wear tight tops and jeans and then wear an elaborate higab on top. What's the point?


It has also a ideological\political statement, especially in light of the hijab bans and restrictions going on.

A few recent articles about hijab,veil in Egypt Egyptian women mull options

and another about some actresses choosing the hijab.

The first article mentions briefly how it is the Islamic revival of the last 30 or so years has created a hijab comeback, which is the case around the Muslim world.

Veiled Princess
That first article makes it sound like veiling is something horrible that we should all be liberated from rolleyes.gif anyway I found this last sentance amusing...
QUOTE
Also popular is the veiled doll, Fulla - the Islamic world's answer to Barbie, banned by Saudi police as a "Jewish doll" ostensibly sporting the scandalous clothing of a perverted West.

My daughter has a few of these dolls and she loves that her dolls cover like her and her mommy.... her favorite is the one that's dressed for prayer... she's wearing a full-lenght skirt and waiste-length khimar... her second favorite is the one that has a house dress (kaftan) and a jilbaab with ameera hijab to put on when she goes outside.... obviously a jew in perverted western attire rolleyes.gif
moody
I love how the Saudi's vilify Jews and use them as the example of the West. To make the West seem even more eeeeevil...muhahahaha. devil.gif
doodlebug
I agree with you Melly. I would stick out like a sore thumb here were I to wear it which I truely believe goes against the whole reason for wearing it in the first place.

I wear very very conservative clothes. Most times at work i wear a long skirt that goes to my ankles with a longsleeved long shirt on top that is loose and not see through and buttoned up to the point that it's modest, but not so high that I lose circulation. If I have a shirt that I'm questioning in that regard (like a v-neck) I will throw a scarf on top of it. I also don't wear makeup so trust me with all that, if a man still has lewd thoughts in his mind all the power to him since there are a lot of women with miniskirts so high in this office that were they to bend over you can see all that God gave them and more!!!
peezey
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 11:52 AM) *

That first article makes it sound like veiling is something horrible that we should all be liberated from rolleyes.gif anyway I found this last sentance amusing...
QUOTE
Also popular is the veiled doll, Fulla - the Islamic world's answer to Barbie, banned by Saudi police as a "Jewish doll" ostensibly sporting the scandalous clothing of a perverted West.

My daughter has a few of these dolls and she loves that her dolls cover like her and her mommy.... her favorite is the one that's dressed for prayer... she's wearing a full-lenght skirt and waiste-length khimar... her second favorite is the one that has a house dress (kaftan) and a jilbaab with ameera hijab to put on when she goes outside.... obviously a jew in perverted western attire rolleyes.gif


I thought the first article showed that a few scholars didn't like the move to cover but the rest of the country clearly doesn't care and is covering. Which part makes hijab sound horrible?
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(peezey @ Nov 2 2006, 12:13 PM) *

I thought the first article showed that a few scholars didn't like the move to cover but the rest of the country clearly doesn't care and is covering. Which part makes hijab sound horrible?

QUOTE
80 percent of Egyptians now wear the veil - the "most successful and the most troubling sign of Islamization," according to sociologist Mona Abaza.

WTF? Troubling? Really??? huh.gif

QUOTE
Only young girls escape the veil - and not always.

Is it a prison that requires escape?

QUOTE
Gone are the days when women brazenly removed their head coverings - as prominent feminist Hoda Charaoui did, stirring furor on her return from a visit to Europe in 1923.

dancin5hr.gif What a great role model... why aren't more girls disrobing like this today??? dancin5hr.gif

QUOTE
Among the conservative vanguards are former immigrants from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States, many of them village women, who have brought back a puritanical, segregationist lifestyle.

So it's only ignorant Saudi village women who would opt to wear the veil? dry.gif Darn country bumpkins!

QUOTE
But female Islamist militants are also championing the veil as a religious obligation in universities - even as they advocate the role of women in a larger political battle against the Egyptian regime and the West.

Well that explains it! It's those darn terrorists!!! mad.gif

Just a few lines that stuck out to me and gave me the impressions I mentioned.

Bosco
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 11:52 AM) *

That first article makes it sound like veiling is something horrible that we should all be liberated from rolleyes.gif anyway I found this last sentance amusing...
QUOTE
Also popular is the veiled doll, Fulla - the Islamic world's answer to Barbie, banned by Saudi police as a "Jewish doll" ostensibly sporting the scandalous clothing of a perverted West.

My daughter has a few of these dolls and she loves that her dolls cover like her and her mommy.... her favorite is the one that's dressed for prayer... she's wearing a full-lenght skirt and waiste-length khimar... her second favorite is the one that has a house dress (kaftan) and a jilbaab with ameera hijab to put on when she goes outside.... obviously a jew in perverted western attire rolleyes.gif


I think it was the Mattel Barbie that they called the "Jewish toy". Pokemon was a Jewish conspiracy too and was banned back when Pokemon was popular. I think all female dolls and teddy bears have been banned since and are hot black market items.
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(Bosco @ Nov 2 2006, 12:26 PM) *

I think it was the Mattel Barbie that they called the "Jewish toy". Pokemon was a Jewish conspiracy too and was banned back when Pokemon was popular. I think all female dolls and teddy bears have been banned since and are hot black market items.

I can see Barbie being banned in the kingdom.... she is pretty nude after all laughing.gif
But Fulla??? Come on!!!

Pokemon is banned in my kingdom as well.... but not because of the jooz wink.gif
rahma
I dunno, for a political science/religious studies major, I certainly don't analyze the hijab as much as one would think. I know why I wear it, as an act of worship (ibadah) for God, and that's good enough for me.

I do like talking about hijabi fashion whistling.gif


IPB Image IPB Image
Veiled Princess
I don't personally like the idea of veiling for fashion but I don't really care why anyone chooses to do so. For me to say you can't wear the veil because you're not religious enough is just as bad as if I would say you're not religious enough because you don't wear the veil... if that makes sense.
I never have a problem with anyone who chooses to wear too many clothes as opposed to those who wear too little.
I also don't see anything wrong wtih being fashionable in one's veiling. There are some items I don't wear in public and I'm not really fashionable (how fashinable can you be in an abaya and scarf?) but that's my preference.
I agree with some statements I've seen so far that you can't judge a person's piety by his/her clothes but then again we aren't really supposed to be trying to do that anyway wink.gif
I choose to wear hijab because I do believe it's commanded by God in the Quran and His reasons for commanding it are mentioned as well... the first of which is so that we will be known as believing women. I don't like the excuse of "I stand out in non-muslim world when I wear it" because of this... IMO we're supposed to. To me, when I see a hijabi in the west I think this is a strong woman who doesn't care what anyone thinks of her other than her God.
I'm not condeming anyone who doesn't wear it and I'm not saying they are any less of a woman because of it because I know it's a hard choice to make and I know there are many muslims who don't believe it's a requirement. I'm just saying this is my personal reason for wearing it... but then again my hubby is an avid fan of hijab for all the women in his life (wife, mother and all his sisters) so he probably just brainwashed me rolleyes.gif tongue.gif
moody
LOL..you brainwashed higabi zombie you!

My husband does prefer the higab but he's fine with me not wearing it. He does expect me to wear it in Egypt though since his mom, sisters, aunts, and cousins all wear it. That's cool.
doodlebug
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 01:00 PM) *

I choose to wear hijab because I do believe it's commanded by God in the Quran and His reasons for commanding it are mentioned as well... the first of which is so that we will be known as believing women.


Where in the Quran does it say this? I've only read it once so far and I dont' remember that statement anywhere. helpsmilie.gif

(i kind of hope you can't come up with it 'cause that will make me have to wear it and i'm petrified of losing my job over it not to mention my daughters have total 'issues' with it just when I wear my prayer outfit at home even )
moody
There are so many interpretations of what the Quran and Hadith says and so many differing opinions of religious scholars that it's hard to know what is definitely haram sometimes.
Henia
QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 01:51 PM) *
I dunno, for a political science/religious studies major, I certainly don't analyze the hijab as much as one would think. I know why I wear it, as an act of worship (ibadah) for God, and that's good enough for me.

I do like talking about hijabi fashion whistling.gif


IPB Image IPB Image
Well I myself have been so used to wearing very simple and modest and long black (ehhheemmm Moody you know what style that is LOL) that since being with and esp marrying my husband he has had to literally force me out of my black *mourouning gown* as he calls it..and into colour! i mean it has been a very tense and uneasy situation for... cos my hijeb warbrode has been for the most part all black and black with some simple design on them. I had like one light blue hijeb which I never wore until coming to Algerie... my husband has elhamdullah broke me out of that thinking... I got tons of *new* hijebs here... in all colours..I have actually started trying to match them to outfits, got hijeb pins and clips...WOW an old dog can learn new tricks...well still need to work on the tricks... still need to find new ways to learn the hijeb... my husband says I am way too stuffy! laughing.gif Me stuffy? Keeps reminding me (Moody) I am not in Sanaa anymore laughing.gif wink.gif
doodlebug
If I did start wearing it in the US, I'd go with this type of style, though I dunno if it would work on my round Polish face...seems like the longer and thinner the face the better they look.

IPB Image
rahma
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Nov 2 2006, 12:08 PM) *

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 01:00 PM) *

I choose to wear hijab because I do believe it's commanded by God in the Quran and His reasons for commanding it are mentioned as well... the first of which is so that we will be known as believing women.


Where in the Quran does it say this? I've only read it once so far and I dont' remember that statement anywhere. helpsmilie.gif

(i kind of hope you can't come up with it 'cause that will make me have to wear it and i'm petrified of losing my job over it not to mention my daughters have total 'issues' with it just when I wear my prayer outfit at home even )



It's illegal for someone to be fired over hijab in this country. It still happens, but any company that does that will get their butts handed to them in a civil rights discrimination suit.

If one does chose to wear hijab, that person should be near 100% comfortable with their decision. It takes a lot of courage to put it on here in the US, and if you're not comfortable, then it will be beyond difficult.

If one feels drawn to hijab, start slowly, wear it at the masjid, then wear it to the masjid, then wear it on occasion when going out on errands. I started by just wearing bandanas, then moving up to a scarf tied back in a bun, and then finally to it worn the "usual" way.


And as for the verse:

O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle. (33:59)

It's interpreted in several different ways. Some say that it means jelbab is required. Others that wearing a distinctive manner of dress is. I use this to support my decision to wear hijab in an environment where I'll stick out, because it identifies me as a muslim woman.
doodlebug
QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 01:34 PM) *

QUOTE(doodlebug @ Nov 2 2006, 12:08 PM) *

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 01:00 PM) *

I choose to wear hijab because I do believe it's commanded by God in the Quran and His reasons for commanding it are mentioned as well... the first of which is so that we will be known as believing women.


Where in the Quran does it say this? I've only read it once so far and I dont' remember that statement anywhere. helpsmilie.gif

(i kind of hope you can't come up with it 'cause that will make me have to wear it and i'm petrified of losing my job over it not to mention my daughters have total 'issues' with it just when I wear my prayer outfit at home even )



It's illegal for someone to be fired over hijab in this country. It still happens, but any company that does that will get their butts handed to them in a civil rights discrimination suit.

If one does chose to wear hijab, that person should be near 100% comfortable with their decision. It takes a lot of courage to put it on here in the US, and if you're not comfortable, then it will be beyond difficult.

If one feels drawn to hijab, start slowly, wear it at the masjid, then wear it to the masjid, then wear it on occasion when going out on errands. I started by just wearing bandanas, then moving up to a scarf tied back in a bun, and then finally to it worn the "usual" way.


And as for the verse:

O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle. (33:59)

It's interpreted in several different ways. Some say that it means jelbab is required. Others that wearing a distinctive manner of dress is. I use this to support my decision to wear hijab in an environment where I'll stick out, because it identifies me as a muslim woman.


I like the "and God is ever Forgiving, Gentle" part. blush.gif
rahma
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Nov 2 2006, 12:36 PM) *


I like the "and God is ever Forgiving, Gentle" part. blush.gif


It's repeated so often in the Qur'an, Ghafur, Rahman, Rahim, gentle, merciful, compassionate, but how often to we forget that? Bismillahir Rahman ir Rahim. We say it, but it doesn't sink in.
Virtual wife
7.26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

The Quran says not one word about headcovering. The popular hadith stating that only the hands and face can be shown is weak with a broken chain of transmission (isnad). Ahadith not only need to explain the Quran, but conform to it, as well. The verse referring to covering so as to be known is intended to distinguish free women from slave women, who were, by law, not allowed to cover more than the area between their navel and knees:

33.59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

In the Prophet's day, it was common for men and women, Muslim and non-Muslim, to wear what is known as the "khimar", a cloth that was utilitarian in many ways. Used to protect oneself from heat and sand, also to carry multiple items, the khimar, often translated as "veil" and mentioned in ayat 24:31, was not a religious object. Speaking frankly, it is silly to base a religious tenet on the idea that a piece of cloth measures piety or protects one from moral terpitude. Allah deserves more credit than that.

Politically, hijab, which is never mentioned in the Quran as a manner of dress, is a tool meant to make men more controlling over women and a diversion to have women spend time worrying their appearance and their shame rather than about issues other than how the rights and power granted to them by Islam have been forfeited for a piece of cloth defining their place as the other. Modesty is prescribed to all, and the only objective directive requires the covering of the breast. All other rules have been set by cultural interpretations in patriarchal societies.

Patriarchy is not sanctioned by Islam, so patriarchal interpretations are subject to reexamination. If dress was so supremely important to piety, it would be also as important for men to define themselves by dress as it is for women. It is not, but we rarely ever notice. Alla in all, hijab is a previously minor, superficial, symbolic, and peripheral issue that has only come to the fore over the last 25 years due to the need of a minority of Muslims with an agenda to push the concept that revisiting ancient tradition and glorifying the past is the tactic to adopt when the future looks bleak. Women, being the primary measure of honor and tradition in tribal societies, are the first to be redefined in accordance. Wear it, for whatever reason, if you like. Do not wear it with confidence if you do not believe it is required. There is no punishment prescribed for not wearing it, no reward prescribed for wearing it. Above all, don't sweat it. Modesty and moderation in all things is called for. Apply that mandate in the best way you see fit.
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 01:51 PM) *

The Quran says not one word about headcovering...


33.59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

In the Prophet's day, it was common for men and women, Muslim and non-Muslim, to wear what is known as the "khimar",


Where is the khimar typically worn?


Also, what is the best translation for "Juyubihinna"?
Virtual wife
Khimar can be worn as a belt, over the shoulder, over the head, or as a tote.


Juyubihinna has various cultural interpretations. Some scholars say it is the entire body, from the head to the feet, some say it is the area from head to bosom, still others believe it to refer the the bosom and upper torso. That is why hijab is interpreted as anything from modest dress with no headcovering to burkas, and everything in between.
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:07 PM) *

Khimar can be worn as a belt, over the shoulder, over the head, or as a tote.

It's an article of clothing worn on the head and women are specifically commanded to pull it around their bossoms.

It's fine if you don't believe that (and anyone else) but don't start wars here and insulting and flaming those who interpret the Quran differently than yourself by calling them silly or whatever other offensive name you see fit to use today.

We've had enough problems here in this forum and you can quickly get reported for trying to enflame anyone here. Have a nice day. star_smile.gif
charles!
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 01:18 PM) *

QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:07 PM) *

Khimar can be worn as a belt, over the shoulder, over the head, or as a tote.

It's an article of clothing worn on the head and women are specifically commanded to pull it around their bossoms.

It's fine if you don't believe that (and anyone else) but don't start wars here and insulting and flaming those who interpret the Quran differently than yourself by calling them silly or whatever other offensive name you see fit to use today.

We've had enough problems here in this forum and you can quickly get reported for trying to enflame anyone here. Have a nice day. star_smile.gif

did i miss something? unsure.gif
Virtual wife
I do believe I am entitled to express my opinion here, even as it disagrees with yours. I plan to do no flaming, but I will add my comments as I see fit. If you have such a strong emotional attachment to a controversial topic that you cannot maintain civil discourse without issuing threats, perhaps it would be best for you to avoid posting such a topic in the future.

BTW, the word "juyub" comes from the word "jayb", which means chest, so it is reasonable to believe that a word that refers to the chest, in this context, can lead to an interpretation that allows for chest covering without headcovering.

This is a subject over which there has been much scholarly debate over centuries. To react with an intent to stifle open discourse including varying viewpoints, and as if it is not a controversial issue even among Muslims is not fair to all who read here with interest.

An article about hijab as fashion opens the door to examining the political and historical context of the practice. I commented on the political, as I seen it as used over the years to distort the orignal purpose in order to fill an agenda that inflates women's dress to a measure of piety and a barrier to moral terpitude. I am not the first one to say this, as can be noted by reading above my comments. I also said in earnest that whomever wants to wear it should feel free to do so, and whomever doesn't can feel free not to. No skin off my teeth. I'm actually quite neutral about it in regards to personal choice, which I believe it to be.

It's an article of clothing worn on the head and women are specifically commanded to pull it around their bossoms.

The reinterpretation and connotation of khimar as a head veil actually didn't happen until about 200 years after the Prophet's death. Prior to that, it was not specifically designated as a head garment.
Bosco
I don't have time for debate because my work is super busy, but my understand of the use of khimar is this (and I will be less than eloquent)....

In parts of the Qur'an God is addressing a specific audience. i.e. - the descriptions of paradise are things that would appeal to people of that time. That isn't to say that paradise is only for people of that time, but that God was speaking in a way that would resonate with them. So, women were already wearing khimar. I think we agree upon that. God wanted them to cover the chests. So he gave them a way to do it, by using the khimar they already wore. The commandment to cover the chest is for all women of all times. However, whether or not it has to be done with a khimar or that wearing a khimar is obligatory is another issue.

I didn't think szsz was saying the interpretation was silly. I thought she was basically repeating what others have already agreed to - that the hijab itself as a measure of piety is silly.

I wish thinks like zakat were cared about with the fervor of a piece of cloth.

Back to work.

ETA: From my perspective, it is irrelevant where the khimar was originally worn.
Virtual wife
did i miss something?

No.
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:31 PM) *

I do believe I am entitled to express my opinion here, even as it disagrees with yours. I plan to do no flaming, but I will add my comments as I see fit. If you have such a strong emotional attachment to a controversial topic that you cannot maintain civil discourse without issuing threats, perhaps it would be best for you to avoid posting such a topic in the future.

I have no problem with anyone having or expressing an opinion here. no0pb.gif
No one here said women who don't wear it are whores or any other deragorty statement like that so it's not fair to start trivializing those of us who do wear it by calling us silly or whatever else just becuase you don't like it.
For someone who was so bent over "gross" two days ago I would expect you to understand. star_smile.gif


QUOTE(Bosco @ Nov 2 2006, 02:36 PM) *

I didn't think szsz was saying the interpretation was silly. I thought she was basically repeating what others have already agreed to - that the hijab itself as a measure of piety is silly.

OK maybe I just read it wrong. If that's the case I'm sorry.
Henia
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Nov 2 2006, 02:25 PM) *
If I did start wearing it in the US, I'd go with this type of style, though I dunno if it would work on my round Polish face...seems like the longer and thinner the face the better they look.

IPB Image
Cute... very unique but I just cannot imagine myself in any white or bright colours...anymore suggestions? LOL
Virtual wife
What I fail to understand is how you got out of my statements that I was trivializing those of who do wear it; I did not call you silly. I also never said I don't like hijab.

I will present the historical and political meanings of hijab, as I have lived all my life as a Muslima and have a perspective that spans over four decades, long enough to know that it wasn't always such an inflamatory issue and long enough to see its tranformation from a personal choice to a religious and moral icon.

OK maybe I just read it wrong. If that's the case I'm sorry.

Apology accepted, thank you. Thanks also to Rebecca for your explanation. I also wish that women would focus on issues of more import.
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:43 PM) *

I also wish that women would focus on issues of more import.

Then bring your rear to my Islamic Banking thread and break riba down for me and stop worrying about how we're covering today laughing.gif tongue.gif tongue_ss.gif
rahma
QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 01:42 PM) *

Cute... very unique but I just cannot imagine myself in any white or bright colours...anymore suggestions? LOL


I looooooooooooooooooooooooove colors. I'm attracted to them like a moth to a lantern. Stick me in a shop in Egypt and I'll immediately locate the tye dyed abaya and the hot pink shayala laughing.gif

If you'd like to add some spice to your wardrobe, do it slowly. Pair a dark skirt with a lighter shirt and a dark scarf. Get a darker colored scarf with swirls of lightness in it. It may grow on ya.
Virtual wife
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 12:47 PM) *

QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:43 PM) *

I also wish that women would focus on issues of more import.

Then bring your rear to my Islamic Banking thread and break riba down for me and stop worrying about how we're covering today laughing.gif tongue.gif tongue_ss.gif


I don't worry about covering, but, at your invitation (thank you!), I will check out the riba thead too - soon.
Henia
QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 03:49 PM) *
QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 01:42 PM) *

Cute... very unique but I just cannot imagine myself in any white or bright colours...anymore suggestions? LOL


I looooooooooooooooooooooooove colors. I'm attracted to them like a moth to a lantern. Stick me in a shop in Egypt and I'll immediately locate the tye dyed abaya and the hot pink shayala laughing.gif

If you'd like to add some spice to your wardrobe, do it slowly. Pair a dark skirt with a lighter shirt and a dark scarf. Get a darker colored scarf with swirls of lightness in it. It may grow on ya.
Well Rahma I was and would be fine wearing my all blacks, but per my husband's request giving into *some* colours and big patterns...I was always wearing the regular square hijebs and khimars...but got shayalas from my husband and his family...kinda frustrated with them... I cannot seem to get them to look right...so forget about make flowers and bows from it laughing.gif tongue_ss.gif
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 12:47 PM) *

QUOTE(szsz @ Nov 2 2006, 02:43 PM) *

I also wish that women would focus on issues of more import.

Then bring your rear to my Islamic Banking thread and break riba down for me and stop worrying about how we're covering today laughing.gif tongue.gif tongue_ss.gif


I don't worry about covering, but, at your invitation (thank you!), I will check out the riba thead too - soon.

I was joking about you worrying about how we cover tongue.gif

Of course you're invited! I'm looking for all the different opinions that everyone follows so that I can weigh them all and decide what is best for me. biggrin.gif

QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 02:49 PM) *

QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 01:42 PM) *

Cute... very unique but I just cannot imagine myself in any white or bright colours...anymore suggestions? LOL


I looooooooooooooooooooooooove colors. I'm attracted to them like a moth to a lantern. Stick me in a shop in Egypt and I'll immediately locate the tye dyed abaya and the hot pink shayala laughing.gif

If you'd like to add some spice to your wardrobe, do it slowly. Pair a dark skirt with a lighter shirt and a dark scarf. Get a darker colored scarf with swirls of lightness in it. It may grow on ya.

I am with you in loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving colors biggrin.gif
One of my favorite abayas is hot pink indian silk with designs biggrin.gif I even have a hot pink matching full face veil that came with it biggrin.gif
Henia
Just something I would like to add, that I read a while ago...on http://www.muhajabah.com/hjbscared.htm

Tips for Beginning to Wear Hijab







Introduction

One of the most difficult decisions many Muslim sisters face is the decision to start wearing hijab. This is certainly true for reverts, but may also be true for sisters whose families or even whose cultures are not particularly observant. As a revert myself, I have been through the whole thing. I would like to offer some advice that I hope inshallah will be helpful to sisters who are considering wearing hijab but find that something is holding them back. If you don't think that you need to wear hijab, try "Why Should I Wear Hijab?" instead.



Learning About Hijab

The first step is to learn about hijab. There is so much information out there and unfortunately much of it seems to be conflicting. Although most of what you see agrees that the sister must cover everything but her face and hands, some groups say that it is fard to cover everything but the eyes. Meanwhile, certain other groups are dedicated to claiming that covering the hair is not obligatory. It is very easy to get confused. And there are other questions. What is a jilbab? Is it fard to wear one? What do all the names mean?

I have spent about two years researching these issues for myself and I have written several articles that set out what to the best of my knowledge are the correct rules of hijab. Each of these is linked below for you to look at.

Special Focus on Hijab - This is a section in a larger article. It explains where the ruling on covering everything but the face and hands comes from, and the conditions of the headscarf. It also refutes the claims of those who say that covering the hair is not fard.

Evidences for Jilbab - The jilbab seems to be the forgotten obligation of hijab. This article presents dalils from Quran and Sunna, and opinions of many scholars, to show that wearing a jilbab is fard, and it also discusses the conditions and rules of the jilbab.

Examining the Dalils for Niqab - In this article I examine the dalils that are presented by those who claim that niqab is fard and I show that these are not as compelling as they seem at first. I am actually a strong supporter of the opinion that niqab is mustahabb and sunna but I do not believe that it is fard and I believe that saying that it is fard is to introduce into the religion an obligation that Allah SWT and the Prophet (sAas) did not.

Bonus: See my Glossary of Hijab Styles.

For your convenience, I present a brief guide to the rules of dress for the Muslim sister for different situations.

1) Around her husband, a sister may dress however she chooses. There are no restrictions on what the husband can see or touch.

2) Around the mahram relatives, women, and children (a complete list of exemptions is given in Surah an-Nur ayah 31), a sister should cover her awra. There are different opinions on the extent of this. The most sensible that I have seen is from the upper chest to the knee. This includes the region that is also awra in men (navel to knee) and extends upwards to cover the woman's bosom, which is a special concern for her. Display of the hair, arms, lower legs and feet, is universally agreed to be halal for this category.

3) Around non-mahram men, a sister must cover all of her body except her face and her hands. The face is the circle of the face only and does not include the ears or any of the hair. Just think about what you wash in wudu. The covering of the hair, neck, shoulders, and upper chest must specifically be accomplished by the khimar (headscarf). The arms, torso, and legs should be covered by loose, opaque clothing that obscures the shape of the figure. A long-sleeved blouse and a jumper, a long loose tunic and a long skirt, or shalwar kameez are all examples of what is acceptable. As well, most scholars say that the feet must be covered with socks and shoes although a few scholars allow the wearing of sandals.

4) Outdoors and in open public places (such as the market or the masjid), a sister must wear a jilbab as an outergarment, that is, over her other clothes. If she is wearing a khimar, then the jilbab only needs to cover from the shoulders to the ankles, such as a long coat. If she is not wearing a khimar, then the jilbab should cover the head and neck as well.

The above rules set out what you need to wear in each situation in order to be observing correct hijab.

Note: Most sisters, including myself, approached hijab in several stages. Usually the first stage is the modest clothing such as the blouse and jumper, tunic and skirt, or shalwar kameez. The second stage is to add the headscarf (properly called khimar). The third stage, often taken much later after reading up on the dalils, is to add the jilbab when outdoors. In the way of things, I expect that most sisters who are reading this have already adopted the modest clothing and are worried about the khimar.



Deciding to Wear Hijab

This is where the difficulties usually come in. For many sisters, it truly is a jihad. I remember very vividly how scared I was the first day I put on the headscarf and went out into public. As long as you are just wearing the modest clothes, nobody has to know that you are a Muslim. Once you complete your hijab with the headscarf, you are suddenly announcing to everyone who sees you that "I am a Muslim". Here is some advice based on my own experiences.

Wear it for the sake of Allah SWT

Various statements are made about why you should wear hijab, such as for modesty or for protection, but the real reason that we wear hijab is that Allah SWT has commanded it. Whenever anyone asks you, why do you dress like that, that's the only answer you need to give them.

Allah SWT is the source of everything we have, our existence, our life, our capability, even our goodness. If He ever stopped sustaining us, we would vanish in that instant. If He ever took away what he gives us, we would never have even a speck of it. If we worked for millions of years, we could never repay Him for all that He has given us. And yet He does give it to us, and all He asks in return is that we do our best to obey what He has commanded us. Surely wearing hijab is a very small thing that you can do for Him compared to what He does for you!

Wear it for the hope of Jannah

Allah SWT makes tests for us in this world. He makes things difficult for us. He wants to see if we will remember Him, if we will have faith in Him, and if we will trust in Him. These qualities are what is meant by "sabr".

Allah SWT does not lose the work of anyone, ever (see Surah Ali Imran ayah 195). Even if it seems like nobody is paying attention to you or notices or appreciates good things that you do, Allah SWT has seen them, and He will not forget them. Even when it seems like the whole world is against you, Allah SWT is always there for you when you turn to Him. Remember this.

Allah SWT always wants the best for us and in His wisdom He knows why each thing that happens to us is in fact best for us. When it seems like everything is going wrong and life is just one disaster after another, it is easy to forget this and to become bitter and skeptical. Yet we must remember always to have faith that Allah SWT knows best why He has willed this for us, and we must always ask Him only "Make me pleased with what You have willed for me".

This world we live in, although it seems at times to be the only real thing, is actually fleeting compared to the Hereafter, which is better and more abiding. The trials of this world will seem as fleeting as a nightmare when seen from the Hereafter, and the pleasures of this world will also seem as fleeting as a dream when seen from the Hereafter. It's our happiness in the Hereafter that we should be most worried about attaining, because it is what will last forever; and it's our suffering in the Hereafter that we should be most worried about avoiding, because it also will last forever.

Allah SWT has promised Jannah to those who remain steadfast in their faith in Him and who trust in Him. The more difficult it is for you to have sabr, the greater the reward for it. So what will it be? Ease in this world, and perhaps the eternal sufferings in Hell? Or difficulty in this world, and inshallah the eternal bliss of Jannah? Let's face it, the old cliches are true: there's no such thing as a free lunch and you can almost never have your cake and eat it too. We've all got to face difficulties some time. Better by far that they be in the world than in the Hereafter.

So that's what you should set your mind to. Yes, it's difficult to wear hijab. You may be rejected by your family or your friends, you may face harassment and persecution or be fired from your job. These are very scary thoughts. But if you have sabr and keep trusting in Allah SWT, I swear to you sister, this is the path to Jannah, and when you look back on the Day of Qiyamah you will know that it was worth it and have no regrets.

Wear it today and trust in Allah SWT for tomorrow

What do I mean by that? What I mean is that you should take it one day at a time, or even one outing at a time. Sometimes the future seems to stretch on forever and ever and you don't think you can make it that long. You want to give up before you even begin.

So sometimes the best thing to do is to keep you mind focused on what is immediately at hand. Allah SWT will take care of the future. If you have to go out to the market, then concentrate on being able to wear hijab just for this activity and on getting through it. If you do get through it and nothing bad happened, then give thanks to Allah SWT for making it easy for you, and turn your mind to your next outing.

Or if you have to go out to school or work, then concentrate on being able to wear hijab just for this one day and on getting through it. And give thanks to Allah SWT when you have made it, and turn your mind to the next day.

Eventually the outings will turn into days and the days into weeks, and the weeks into months. One day you will realize that you have been wearing hijab for quite a long time and it isn't really as bad as you feared, and Allah SWT helped you get through it. Don't be ashamed. Sometimes it is like this. The most important thing is to have sabr and keep your trust in Allah SWT always.

Wear it and spite the shaytan

My dear sister, the worries and fears in your mind are the whisperings of the shaytan. He wants to talk you out of obeying Allah SWT.

It is very easy to keep going around in circles in your mind and to dwell on all the things that could go wrong. I know that I myself have a tendency to do this, I put it off and I dither and I wait for "the perfect time". If I let myself, I would never do anything at all!

So the thing you have to remember is that you do not need to be perfect in iman to wear hijab. If perfection were a qualification, where is the sister who could wear it??

You must also not fall into the trap of thinking that you should wait until all your worries and fears have disappeared. They never will! Trust me on this, sister.

True courage is going ahead to do what's right even though you are still nervous and scared. So don't listen to the shaytan. Ignore the worries and fears he whispers into your mind. Tell him that you will not let him keep you from obeying Allah SWT and you will not let him rule your life.

Make the decision to wear it

Once you have come to know in your heart that you must wear hijab, then you have to set a day and

JUST DO IT

This is the only way. Set a day and when that day comes, you have to do it. Don't back down. Don't give up. Do it.

Offer salat al-istikhara. Make du'a. Make lots of du'a. Do not stop making du'a. Ask Allah SWT to give you strength. Ask Him to make it easy for you. Ask Him to help you. He will, I swear it to you. He is always there for you when you turn to Him. Remember how much He has given you, how everything that you have, even your very existence, is due to Him. Remember that He deserves this from you. Remember the promise of Jannah. Remember that remaining patient and faithful through difficulty now may lead to Jannah, inshallah. Even if bad things happen, keep these thoughts in your mind. Don't worry about tomorrow. Just concentrate on getting through today, and leave tomorrow to Allah SWT until it gets here.

That's how you do it.



Final Words of Encouragement

I have been wearing hijab since September 1999. I do not regret it. I have never for one instant regretted it. I do not regret it even one iota. Inshallah, you will discover that you feel the same. Even within a few months I came to feel that I would not be properly dressed if I went out not wearing hijab. This is when you know that you have made it!

Never feel that you are alone, or that you are the only one who is scared and worried and nervous. Just about every other sister who has travelled down this road has gone through the same things. I know I have. Your sisters are here for you. We have been where you are. We are encouraging you and cheering you on. We know what it takes because we had to find that in ourselves too. We are praying for your success just as we prayed for our own.

Come and join us.

Allah does not burden a soul except what it can bear. For it is what it has earned, and upon it is what it has made due. "Our Lord and Sustainer, do not condemn us if we forget or do wrong. Our Lord and Sustainer, do not put a burden on us like the burden You put on those who were before us. Our Lord and Sustainer, do not put a burden on us that we cannot endure. And blot out (our sins) and forgive us, and be gentle to us. You are our Protector. So help us against the rejectors." (Surah al-Baqarat ayah 286)



A few more links

The Veil (Hijaab) - Video featuring hijabi sisters from around the world, set to Dawud Wharnsby Ali's "The Veil"

Hijab is Beautiful - A photo gallery of hijabi sisters from around the world, to encourage sisters who would like to join them in hijab

Hijab for the New Muslimah - More encouragement for sisters who are considering wearing hijab

Hijab Poems - Read some inspirational poems about hijab

Hijab Stories - You are not alone! Read stories by other Muslimahs about how they came to wear hijab.

How to Hijab - So you've decided to go for it. Mabruk!!! Now you need some practical tips on fabric and styling. Here's a page for you. See also her Hijab Gallery.

Thinking About Hijab? Some Steps to Consider - The issues you will need to deal with: yourself, your family, your friends, your job, and your wardrobe. Good advice for the sister who is ready to wear hijab

rahma
QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 02:00 PM) *


Well Rahma I was and would be fine wearing my all blacks, but per my husband's request giving into *some* colours and big patterns...I was always wearing the regular square hijebs and khimars...but got shayalas from my husband and his family...kinda frustrated with them... I cannot seem to get them to look right...so forget about make flowers and bows from it laughing.gif tongue_ss.gif


It took me 4 years to get a shayala to look right laughing.gif I'm wearing one today though kicking.gif I wear the undercap of an al amera scarf underneath, and it makes it much easier to put on.

Check this picture tutorial for some shayala stylin.

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 02:06 PM) *

I am with you in loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving colors biggrin.gif
One of my favorite abayas is hot pink indian silk with designs biggrin.gif I even have a hot pink matching full face veil that came with it biggrin.gif


laughing.gif When I make it to Saudia, I think I'll wear a hot pink niqab whistling.gif
Henia
QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 04:11 PM) *
QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 02:00 PM) *


Well Rahma I was and would be fine wearing my all blacks, but per my husband's request giving into *some* colours and big patterns...I was always wearing the regular square hijebs and khimars...but got shayalas from my husband and his family...kinda frustrated with them... I cannot seem to get them to look right...so forget about make flowers and bows from it laughing.gif tongue_ss.gif


It took me 4 years to get a shayala to look right laughing.gif I'm wearing one today though kicking.gif I wear the undercap of an al amera scarf underneath, and it makes it much easier to put on.

Check this picture tutorial for some shayala stylin.

QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 02:06 PM) *

I am with you in loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooving colors biggrin.gif
One of my favorite abayas is hot pink indian silk with designs biggrin.gif I even have a hot pink matching full face veil that came with it biggrin.gif


laughing.gif When I make it to Saudia, I think I'll wear a hot pink niqab whistling.gif
Ooooooooooo snaps love to see that one! Snaps...well I pretty stand out in the mirage of white here LOL! laughing.gif
Alex+R
QUOTE(Henia @ Nov 2 2006, 02:06 PM) *


Hijab is Beautiful - A photo gallery of hijabi sisters from around the world, to encourage sisters who would like to join them in hijab



This link had pictures and when it was a woman in full body, they erased her facial features, according to Islamic laws about representational art. The explanation the site had only went as to far as saying it was wrong because it's wrong.

Why? (Curiosity)
Henia
Snaps I wana learn how to do the Manar TV waterfall look...
Veiled Princess
QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 03:11 PM) *

laughing.gif When I make it to Saudia, I think I'll wear a hot pink niqab whistling.gif

laughing.gif I think that would be frowned upon there laughing.gif

I do hear that it's popular in the UAE though idea9dv.gif
Henia
Also just to tease my crazy curiousity does anyone here or know anyone that wears the Maroccan djellaba style with the hood drawn up and pinned with the half niqab...

Also does anyone know why or what purpose does it offer for women to wear the chador in a way that they have to hold it to keep it together instead of pinning in place? I know it has to do with culture, but seems pointless to me...even my husband wonders about this one! blink.gif

[/color]

Here in DZ they wear these half white niqabs...actually white is the norm here...all white.

[color="#ff6666"]


Bosco
QUOTE(Veiled Princess @ Nov 2 2006, 03:25 PM) *

QUOTE(rahma @ Nov 2 2006, 03:11 PM) *

laughing.gif When I make it to Saudia, I think I'll wear a hot pink niqab whistling.gif

laughing.gif I think that would be frowned upon there laughing.gif

I do hear that it's popular in the UAE though idea9dv.gif


In the National Geographic movie Inside Mecca, the American convert Fidelma O'Leary wore some rather bright clothing on her hajj. If you image google her name, you will see some pics, I think.

Virtual wife
Does anyone ever wonder why there are so many articles and so much effort expended to convince women that hijab is required when the Quran says nothing about it as a mode of dress?
rahma
Actually, I don't spend any time or brain cells thinking about hijab in anything other than a silly, valley girl fashion manner.

IPB Image
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.