Wow - this is an excellent site. I've been reading it for hours now (it's friday after all and my boss is on holiday) and still haven't found the info to answer our questions.

Me=USC / She=UKC

Basic timeline:
I moved to UK with work visa July 03
We married March 05
I got Limited Leave to Remain visa for spouses Nov 05

We hope to move back to US in Sept/Nov 2007

QUESTIONS for the forum:
1. although I've only got a LLR UK visa I've been here for over 3 years now. Anyone know if they might let me do a DCF in London?

2. regarding the timing of this whole thing, we don't want to get her visa granted too early as anytime before March 07 would be less than 2 years marriage and this would mean a conditional visa. When should we apply?

3. do we have to send in our passports for any amount of time?

Many thanks - in advance!
P&A

P&A,
1: Yes, I think it is highly likely that London will accept your I-130 as others who are genuinely resident in the UK have found. If they do not, they will return your file and your payment and instruct you to file in the US at your last Service Center address. This is one reason to start your app earlier than later as a US-filed case can expect to take 9 months or more. Start watching the timlines for your US Service Center occasionally (monthly) so you have an idea of what is going on there should you need it. A major part of the time saving factor of DCF is filing abroad, but avoiding the NVC is priceless (time's black hole).

2: The class on the visa is really immaterial. I can appreciate wanting to save the $200 bucks the I-751 will cost you eventually <koff> but the status class at ENTRY is what will count. If your wife enters the US with her Immigrant Visa after she has been married for 2 years, she will get the IR class anyway and her actual card + status will be the 'permanent' flavor.

The rule of thumb used to be 'apply 6 months before you plan to move' but you might want to leave a little extra time. Once the visa is issued, your wife has 6 months to use it, so you are still in control of some things.

3: your wife will leave her passport with the CO at her visa interview and have it returned within three days or so. This is the last step in the process.

Don't forget the nagging details, like filing your US tax return annually, voting by mail, establishing/maintaining your ties to the US (banking etc) as the domicile issue will come up. Way to plan ahead!

Thanks for your thorough response meauxna.

I see the VT processing center is still only up to Feb 06 applications! Grim. Will hope to DFS it in London.


Let's be optimistic and say we apply in October and get the Visa in 6 months, April time. We have 6 months from then to move back to the US together. Further questions (if you don't mind)

1. Jobs. In advance of moving home do either of us need to show we are moving back to USA with jobs lined up?

2. Domicile. I've been here since 2003 and not filing taxes in the US as I read on one of the official websites that you don't have to if you're living abroad and have no US income. Does my own foot have a bullet hole in it now? Address. I plan to use my Dad's home address as a permanent domicile. Voting. Haven't done this since 2002 but that was when I was registered in NYC while living there. My dad lives in MA. Banking - I have loads of US loan and bank accounts which are all active but the mailing address for them is UK.

Any suggestions?
continuing gratitude from us.

Ahhh, the old tax myth. grrr. Get to know your local IRS (they're at the US Embassy & very helpful from what I hear). USCs must REPORT their worldwide income. Forever.
However, we have tax treaties with many countries, so you are not *taxed* twice.. this tends to be what confuses people. Your first (?) $80K are exempt from double tax (check the figure, I'm not current, but if you're making more than that, hire a damn international CPA! ). Off the top of my head, it's Pub xxx scratch that, it's 2555: http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq13-3.html

And voting?! My man, whatever 'side' you're on, you've got a vested interest, especially this November. Please consider voting, and it will help show your ongoing ties to the US (domicile). You can get info on absentee voting through your Embassy and your State Secretary of State's office (or county voting office). If you're switching to Dad's addy, you may not be able to participate in local/state/commonwealth elections due to lack of physical presence.

Mailing address is OK to be UK. I lived in Greece for nearly 3 years, but maintain my US domicile throughout. There is much thorough and official discussion of domicile in form I-864 (go get it immediately from uscis.gov) and in the three links at the bottom of the DCF Guide: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...om&page=dcf
If you have not yet read that, do so. If you have read that, read it again.

All the 'domicile' talk boils down to the I-864. In order to be elgibile to sponsor your wife (which you have to do to bring her here) you must have (or be taking steps toward) a US domicile. Normally, one has a US income to complete that document, but that's not the only way. London is quite generous in its interpretation of domicile.
Essentially, you need US income (or income that will continue forward once you're in the US) at $17K or higher, OR assets at $17K X 3, or a combination of the two OR a Joint Sponsor who will complete an I-864 on your wife's behalf. (or potentially, a really strong promise of the above)
The I-864 is a serious document, start reading it soon.

Oh yeah, so that *sometimes* means you should have a US job, but not always. The CO was certainly interested in what my future plans were. Of course plans is plans, and they don't always come to fruition. (I'm the biggest anti J-O-B person here I think )

Bottom line: you "should" have a plan for what you are going to do once in the US; I think you will figure it out OK.

Thanks again for the follow-up tips on the I-864! I still can't believe other people actually understand how to get through these forests of paperwork.

It sounds like either I should have a job offer - but maybe they would count my record of continuous employment and progressive salary? Or else we could ask my father to be a co-sponsor?

Your limited leave to remain visa should expire in November...just be aware of that and be aware that you will have to send off some of the same docs for an ILR as you will for a US visa. Luckily the Home Office processes visa apps quickly and it's ridiculously easy to get a visa in the UK.

You may be able to do a DCF in London, but check carefully with them. They will let you start the process just to let you waste your time spinning your wheels, so make double and triple-sure that you're eligible.

If you wanted to you could start the process right away (assuming you can do a DCF) and draw it out for as long as you like. I did not want to rush my husband so we took our time with documentation gathering. We were approved for the I-130 in October 2005; we did not actually notify the embassy we were ready for an interview until July 17th of this year. I don't know if the conditional visa would be used if you STARTED the process before March 2007 or ENDED it before March 2007; again, you'll want to check with USCIS on that.

It doesn't really matter which *visa* class you are given. PR status is given at the Point of Entry, so the age of the marriage *on that day* is the one that counts.
If the visa is CE, but the 2nd wedding anniversary has past, the immigrant should be admitted as class IR. If this is your case, you should make a point of reminding your Border Agent.

Thanks for the tips - very good to know we don't have to file for the visa straight after getting approved for I-130. Good news - had a response from the US Embassy via email within 48 hours! They say we can do a DCF here in London. Very good news indeed.

Am I also right in understanding that if we returned to the UK in the future for 4 years to live in the UK my wife's visa would expire and to return to live in USA we would have to re-apply for a visa? Maybe we need also look into her becoming a US citizen...

again - many thanks. we're feeling lucky to have found this forum!

iclaudius, if memory serves me correctly even a permanent resident visa in the UK can expire if you spend more than x consecutive days outside of the United Kingdom...but I really don't know. The expertise here seems to mainly be in terms of US immigration, so if you have questions about your wife's visa I suggest you contact the IND at the Home Office.

If you want your wife to become a UK citizen, she is eligible to apply three years after marriage, possibly earlier due to her work permit. You should be aware that taking UK citizenship now requires pledging a loyalty oath to the Queen (not kidding) which is prohibited for US citizens by US law, so technically her US citizenship would be in jeopardy though it's doubtful anything would ever happen. The US does not officially recognize dual citizenship and I personally would not advise any US citizen to take up citizenship in another country simply due to the problems it has the potential to create.

If you want to become a US citizen, I think you can apply either three or five years after you immigrate. I know people in the US who have been there on green cards for nearly thirty years who have no plans to become citizens, so it's definitely not mandatory. It does mean once you're done you don't have to deal with the gov't again, so I say go for it. The UK government does not care if their citizens become citizens of another country and it would not jeopardize your UK citizenship, since natural-born UK citizens don't even have the right to renounce their own citizenship.

It is so helpful to read your experiences.

We have just had our I-130 approved by DCF in London (Chris has been living in the UK for 3 years) - but we want to slow the process down so that when I enter the US we will have been married 2 years (ie we need to go to the States after July 7th 2007).

Did you do anything between Oct-July apart from collect documents? Medical tests? I do worry that our I-864 may be turned down as Chris (US) doesn't have great links to the states - it is so hard to estimate how long this stuff will take!

In the meantime Chris will have to apply for ILR in the UK - but the I-864 goes on about how you have to show that you seriously want to move to the US - and I was wondering if having ILR in the UK would work against us. What do you think?

Emily.

Dear Emily

Tell me about it - we've got almost an identical story which is pretty surreal. I don't have many ties either so we might need to ask my father to co-sponsor the I-864. Re your question about ILR do you think the visa office will even notice if he has a ILR or LLR visa?

Peter



Dear homesick - I think there is confusion. I am the Amercan and wife is the Brit. But I'll just reverse your advice for us!


any tips about determing citizen ship eligibility? I've been here since 2003 now and would love to get the UK citizen ship sorted. I read somewhere that the US doens't recognize dual nationalities but turns a blind eye if you take a second one. For simplicity sake it would be ideal at some point for us to become citizens of each others' countries!



Any other problems you are aware of?



This is ideal!!! I can't even tell you how much we spend on legal/visa fees and to do away with these as citizens would be fab. Thanks again for your advice
p

Peter - I know! odd! You are right - hopefully they won't notice the ILR....I think it would make it easier if we want to come back to the UK at some point if Chris has it. Although it's all so pricey. Really we want to live between the 2 countries - not make a firm decision either way - but governments don't seem to like this approach.

We have asked Chris's Dad to be a joint sponsor as Chris doesn't meet the financial requirements - they want you to have been above the income level for 3 years - and make no exceptions - even if you were a student! (So ridiculous)

But even with that I am still a bit worried - Chris hasn't filed tax returns or voted or anything like that. He does have a bank account in the states. We're going to put our destination address as his folks - but I don't know if they will buy that either.....

I'm quite confused about the timing - I don't want to have the visa issued until about July 2007 - so don't know whether to press on with it all or hang back. Some timelines seem to be really quick - others take ages. What a pain! It is a minefield.

Emily.

That's exactly what we want as well. We got together with the understanding it would be unfair to family & friends to settle permanently in one country or the other.

But yes it seems that neither country wants flirters going back and forth.

I think we'll be in the same boat in terms of domicile because of income. So likewise I hope my dad's address/salary will suffice.

Re timing, it seems to take about 4-6 months between applying and interview in London. But you have another 6 months in which to use the visa to enter the country after that. Which gives a bit of flexibility, if like us, you won't plan to move back there until jobs are arranged.

keep me posted - you're a step ahead of us so we'll watch with interest!

I know! We are the same - we are happy in both England and the US - and don't want to commit to either one. Hopefully we'll find a way....

We'll keep you posted - it seems like a long old process!

Emily.

Congrats on the confirmation from London; that at least narrows down what exactly you'll be doing visa-wise.

My UKC husband just naturalized, as a part of our plan. This gives us tremendous flexibility now and allows us to live outside the US for indefinite periods of time.
Because we filed via DCF, he was eligible to apply just shy of 3 years after his first immigrant entry to the US.




I always recommend Rich Wales' excellent dual citizenship FAQ:

Dual Citizenship FAQ

Dual Nationality and
United States Law
by Rich Wales

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/




Emily,
Why no visa until July 07?

When looking at timelines, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. London direct-filed cases take 4-6 months to complete (and then the visa is valid for 6 months after approval).
I wonder if the long timelines you are looking at are for US-filed cases?

I got married to a Brit in 2001 and have been eligible to apply for UK citizenship since 2004. I have refused to do so because I have no interest in becoming a British citizen and I refuse to swear a loyalty oath to the Queen on general principle. I think eligibility is determined as three years for spouses, five years for everyone else, so either way you slice it you're probably a ways off. I'd check with the Home Office, though; these laws change all the time and it has been a while since I looked at them.



Besides endangering your US citizenship? No, no others that I can think of. The UK doesn't require its overseas citizens to file tax returns and it doesn't have a national service obligation. If you're just worried about being hassled about re-settling in the UK, I wouldn't worry about it; it's so easy to get resident visas here when you're married to a UK citizen that taking UK citizenship is hardly worth it.

There is no 3-year minimum at a certain income level that I am aware of (If you are referring to the I-864)

Excellent catch, Shalacat--I missed that earlier.

There is in fact NO requirement that anything BUT the current income be at/above poverty level guidelines.
Past tax returns can be at/above/below without (too much) consequence--I should know, as my own case was a bit weird that way & I was in fact unemployed at the time I petitioned.

And, "exceptions" are sort of made---it is a totality of circumstances thing (which explains my approval).

To correct an earlier point, it IS possible for UK-born Citizens to renounce their Citizenship if they wish, by sending a letter formally stating their intentions to do so to the nearest UK Embassy (as I intend to do once I gain US Citizenship, due to personal principles such as my disagreement with Monarchy etc). It is possible to regain it later on, however you have to jump through various hoops to do so.

Weird; I'd heard that Brits didn't have the right to do that. Learn something new every day, I guess.

Why renounce, though? You won't be paying taxes in the UK anymore, isn't that enough?

Homesick, what would endanger your US citizenship by taking dual nationality? As far as I was aware, the US allows citizens to take dual nationality. Unless you have a security clearance I didn't think there was any issue? My husband was planning to take UK citizenship in the future, and would be worried if his US citizenship was endangered.

Thanks

Under US law pledging your allegiance to a foreign monarch (in this case, the Queen) could potentially endanger your US citizenship.

Realistically I don't think anything would happen, but why take the chance? British citizenship isn't worth it to me.

It is a more drawn out process than for other countries, as I think it also involves actually going to the embassy and swearing in front of a consular officer (which I've been tempted to do at times ), I know of one ex-pat Brit who did so because he was taking a government position which required "Secret" level clearance, and so did it to ease the process for his background checks etc. That's also a big reason for me, as I'm looking at military/Law Enforcement/government jobs, and I wouldn't want my loyalties to be called into doubt I will miss standing in the shorter queue to get back into the UK though!

*shrug* Up to you. Personally, I'd never give up my US citizenship.

[/quote]

Emily,
Why no visa until July 07?

When looking at timelines, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. London direct-filed cases take 4-6 months to complete (and then the visa is valid for 6 months after approval).
I wonder if the long timelines you are looking at are for US-filed cases?
[/quote]

Hi - thanks for the pointer! I think I was looking at the non-DCF timelines - I'm not very good at this....

We want to wait for the visa until July 07 because we want Chris to get ILR in the UK first - which should mean that when we return to the UK (We want to keep flexibility in where we live) it should be easier. We recently looked into getting our first mortgage and were denied because Chris doesn't have ILR.

For Chris to get ILR GB regulations state that I (his sponsor) have to be 'permanently settled' in the UK. If they see a US visa stamp in my passport I think they will smell a rat and may turn down his ILR.....and anyway - we aren't in a big hurry to fly over the pond.

E




Sadly there is - I have an email from the US embassy saying exactly that.

[quote name='EmilyandChris' date='Sep 22 2006, 01:38 PM' post='462496']
[/quote]

Emily,
Why no visa until July 07?

When looking at timelines, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. London direct-filed cases take 4-6 months to complete (and then the visa is valid for 6 months after approval).
I wonder if the long timelines you are looking at are for US-filed cases?
[/quote]

Hi - thanks for the pointer! I think I was looking at the non-DCF timelines - I'm not very good at this....

We want to wait for the visa until July 07 because we want Chris to get ILR in the UK first - which should mean that when we return to the UK (We want to keep flexibility in where we live) it should be easier. We recently looked into getting our first mortgage and were denied because Chris doesn't have ILR.

For Chris to get ILR GB regulations state that I (his sponsor) have to be 'permanently settled' in the UK. If they see a US visa stamp in my passport I think they will smell a rat and may turn down his ILR.....and anyway - we aren't in a big hurry to fly over the pond.

E


[quote name='Shalacat' post='461370' date='Sep 21 2006, 10:02 PM']
[quote name='EmilyandChris' post='458269' date='Sep 20 2006, 11:05 AM']
We have asked Chris's Dad to be a joint sponsor as Chris doesn't meet the financial requirements - they want you to have been above the income level for 3 years - and make no exceptions - even if you were a student! (So ridiculous)
Emily.
[/quote]

There is no 3-year minimum at a certain income level that I am aware of (If you are referring to the I-864)
[/quote]

Sadly there is - I have an email from the US embassy saying exactly that.
[/quote]

But do you think the person was wrong? That would be great if they were - So do you mean that as long as Chris's last tax return shows that he is above the income level then that will fulfill the I-864 requirements? Please tell me yes!

Hi Emily

Regarding the ILR and mortgages you were talking to the wrong bank! That is RUBBISH.

I only have an LLR and we had absolutely no problem getting a mortgage this year. Send me a private message, if you want, and I can recommend our independent financial advisor. He's totally independent and lined up 2-3 lenders we could have used. P

I agree, the ILR excuse is rubbish. We got a mortgage in 2001 when I'd only been here six months, had just started a job, and was only 3 months through an LLR visa before I was even eligible to apply for permanent residency.

Our mortgage is with NatWest.

Thank you guys - this is such good news....they were so horrible at the bank (Nationwide), it made me feel quite defeated by the whole Anglo-American thing. But there is hope!

Getting a mortgage here was ridiculously easy. It'll take hubby years to establish credit and me to re-establish credit (living outside of the US for several years can wreck your rating) to the point where we can buy a house, which I could do right away in the UK. Then again, moneylending in the UK tends to be much looser than in the US; mortgage lenders in the US are pretty conservative.

Seems you agree with him then---USC is better than UKC!

I don't see the point in choosing if you can have both.






Maybe the other answers have answered that objection? I confess to not being up to date on the finer points of UK immigration..
I do know that if Chris gets his UK citz, that will make returning to the UK *very* easy.



I don't see the email you got, but the way you've worded it is not correct.
There is a requirement to present past tax returns (formerly the past 3 years, now the past one year).
There is a requirement for one's current income to be at/above poverty guidelines for the household size OR have assets at 3X that amount OR a combination of the two.

There is not a requirement that the past three years (or even the past year) be at/above PG.

Hi Homesick,

Could you let me know the law or precedent where it states this? I tried googling it but didn't come up with any actual reference for us to read. It might not be worth it to you, but dual British and American citizenship is the way we'd like to go. However, we'd prefer to do it with our eyes open and I'd like to read up on where it states that one's US citizenship is potentially endangered. My husband has a military job (although wont have after the end of next year) and only found issues with his clearance, not his citizenship.

Thanks very much!

~Candace

Theoretically any time you take foreign citizenship you're endangering your US citizenship, though it's unlikely that the US government would actually view taking UK citizenship as a de facto renunciation taking it could make things difficult for you coming and going, and could hinder your ability to get help overseas.

This information is extremely easy to find. Just google 'dual citizenship', this came up on the first page of hits. It should be reassuring reading; probably NOTHING will happen to you, but I personally would never jeopardize my US citizenship simply to make border crossings easier.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#LossCit

Thanks for the link Homesick - perfect! That's put my mind at rest. I see now that you meant the law was worded years ago but of course precedent has been set since so there's no way they'd revoke just for taking dual citizenship - kind of like those old laws from like 1336 where a man wasn't allowed to own more than one cow between Monday and Thursday!

And just a note - 'making border crossings easier' isn't everyone's reason for wanting dual citizenship!

Thanks again.

It's pretty much the only reason to take UK citizenship, unless you also want to vote. You don't have to be a citizen in order to use some public services here (though some are off-limits to you), and as long as one of the parents is a UK citizen, the kids will be entitled to British citizenship no matter where they're born.

UK immigrant visas for spouses are ridiculously easy to get and are lightning fast to process. I ought to know; I've done it before. Again, I don't see the point of becoming a UK citizen, especially since it now involves swearing an oath of loyalty to a woman who did nothing but emerge from the correct birth canal.

One reason we think about both going for Dual citizenship is in case we have kids at some point. I can't bear the thought that if something were to happen to one of us there would be problems living with the kids in the survivor's country (say for example if they were in school). Does anyone know about this?

I think that reasoning is slightly paranoid, but hey...it's your life.

It's 90% likely that your kids will have both citizenships through you and your spouse (there are a few rules about how many years one must have lived in the US after age 14, for example).

Your reasoning is sound; my parents made sure we kids knew who was next up to care for us if something happened to them. You really do have to think of these things. In the same vein, I made sure my husband knew what his upcoming immigration steps were, where the paperwork was kept, what his deadlines and options were should something happen to me, or our relationship. I wanted him to have a secure future no matter what our outcomes were. It's just another piece of the planning one does, like buying insurance etc.
(remind me to buy some insurance next week, wontcha?)

Actually there are several Supreme Court decisions that say this isn't so... you actually have the intent of renouncing your US Citizenship to lose it... the Supreme's have found that the mere action of taking anouther Country's Citizenship Oath and becoming a naturalized citizen in another country is not a high enough bar to establish that intent... To lose one's Citizenship, one must actually go to a US Consulate and renounce it before a Consular Officer.

Don't go confusing the issue with facts, now. Baseless suspicion is a lot more fun!

And even then.. you'd have to convince the consular officer that you weren't just renouncing it to evade US laws... such as reporting your worldwide income and paying tax on it... A la how the Dart Family (inventers of the styrofoam and plastic drinking cup) found out when they tried to renounce their citizenship in Belize in order to evade paying US Income Taxes on their worldwide investment and royalty income

That's hysterical.. how come I never ran into them down there? I could've helped them with their excess money.
Belize sure tried to make a name for itself as the offshore tax haven. A'course, when I was there, I had to store my money under the floorboards of my house!

That is one way, though in some cases taking citizenship in a foreign country can be interpreted as a renunciation. I did check on this as I had considered becoming a UKC prior to this 'loyalty oath' bullshit. It's not worth it to me. I'll never become a UKC. Ever.

Sorry - I think I was unclear in my posting above. The scenario we're worried about (paranoid, yes!) is
- have kids who get dual citizenship. My british wife dies while she and I are living in the US and the kids are at boarding school in the UK. I want them to finish school in the UK but also want to move to the UK to be closer to them. Would I need a UK citizenship to have the right to return to the UK without my deceased UK citizen spouse?

This is really a pretty extreme example, but what we're trying to flesh out is if there are certain circumstances where having a family where one of us is not the citizen of both countries could ever complicate our lives (more than it does already!!)

thanks all

Dunno, that's a strange one. The Home Office could answer that question; this board seems to restrict itself to US visa expertise only.