I think both of these posts raise some interesting points.

For one, my ethnic heritage is partly Eastern European and my grandparents who did a lot of caring for me were immigrants from Eastern Europe, so in some ways there's a very "natural" feel for me when I go there, as it is in my heritage and bloodline and childhood.

For another, I often discuss with the AW who think it's just "sad" that we go searching for the Eastern European women, I often discuss with them the difference in demographics, and what they would do if the women outnumbered the men by a large proportion, I mean single, attractive, available women looking for husbands outnumbering the number of men.

As an example, I showed a friend of mine just ONE RW website. She was just astounded at the numbers and volume and all the pictures and profiles of the attractive women who were advertising themselves. When she picked her jaw back up off the floor, she said, god they make us American women look like DOGS. Her words, not mine.

I also showed her, I can put my profile up on say, Yahoo! or some other personals website and maybe, maybe in a few weeks I might get one or two or three responses. I can put my profile up on a RW website and within hours I can literally get swamped with replies. She couldn't believe the difference, and I even showed her my mailbox from a couple of sites.

Granted not every single one of these emails are something I would even want to pursue, but let's face it, if the women/men demographics were suddenly turned around in America, we'd be the candy in the candy store, instead of the other way around.

The other thing I explained to her. For example, I'm currently developing a relationship with someone new who's becoming very special to me. And I told her, we wrote letters back and forth, exchanged pictures for over six weeks, nearly TWO MONTHS, before we had a chance to talk on the phone together... and it will likely be several MORE months before we can even meet.

It's really quite quite different "dating" than waking up in the morning and wondering all about the person next to you.

My RW and I have talked about a variety of subjects, trying to understand and delve into each other's point of view and philosophy and thoughts and feelings ~before~ we ever can look into each other's eyes, before we can ever even hold hands, much less "wind up" in between the sheets together.

I asked this AW, since she's also out of a recently ended marriage, wouldn't you have liked to exchange emails and letters and phone calls with so-and-so (her ex-) for several months first before you wound up in bed with him?? Not that that is any iron-clad guarantee of a successful relationship, as I'll be the first to claim in that respect...

She thought for a minute and said .... 'wow, how romantic...'

things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm and sigh...

-- Dan

There is an american site that does approach the whole dating thing by getting to know someone before you actually talk to them via phone or meet them in person.

I did that before I expanded my search, it is called Eharmony. I have to say every woman I met on there had and instant click with me or some aspect of who I am. One was a movie nut, one was a food fan, another was into photagraphy. In the end as the relationships progressed to a serious point they either didnt feel ready for a commitment or they just plain freeked. Of couse the majority of the women I was matched with were 10 years younger than me and I had set my age range from 25 to 37 when I was 38. I didnt match with one person my own age, dunno why.

Paul Misses Anna

...and they say romance is dead




What a blessing for you that she won't be setting her hopes too high!

Fwiw, I couldn't care less who you date/marry/choose. I think it's great that you have found a preference that is so accepting of you...as you have said in the quote I posted in the previous post. What I do have a problem with is really wrong generalizations. I don't feel it's necessary to put down an entire nation of women for you to justify your choice. Your justifications are inaccurate & hypocritical, amongst other things.

Be happy, get married, fall in love or not...whatever...But instead of bein all 'American women this, Russian women that' how about seeing your woman as an individual and not some homogenized churned out replica of every other woman in Russia?

Ummmm hello??? Do ya not GET THAT???

No CarolineM, please enlighten me was to why that is happening. I want to see just how much you truly understand why that is happening. So please give me your best and most intelegent analysis of why that is happening. You to LisaD I would love to hear your analysis of why this is happening.

Helllllo, do YOU not get it??

and the rest of my quote said:



can you say "demographics"?? I knew ya could!

Oh yeah, I forgot, you're gonna denigrate all of them as only seeking a "visa" and "a better life".

I loved it when one woman told me... "oh obviously she's just seeking a 'better life'..."

And I was like... ummmmmmm just what woman ~isn't~???

LOL

-- Dan

The only question I'd like to ask is to the OP. This thread is called 'starting my journey...my question is 'with whom?'

I just got into this thread late. But I have to say that I truly believe that Russian women can be thought of some kind of commodity by American Men. Yes of course they look for a better life but like PurrSuede said "What woman isn't". I've had some good experiences with American woman and some bad. Although the one VERY GOOD experience I had after my divorce was with an AW that was originally from Romania. She is now a very good friend of mine. I just think the American Man has spoiled the AW. An AW is interested in what material things a man has to offer. A RW asks only what intellectualy stimulating characters do you have to offer. Of course this is only my opinion. And I dont mean this towards all AW. But I do believe that we as the American Men have put the AW in a position to want more than sometimes we can offer.

What do you mean by that? I don't ask in a mocking tone, I am really intrigued as to what you mean and would love for you to expound on this....

With my posts, I was trying to illustrate that "on the whole" R/W care less about where a man works (a.k.a. what his salary is) what kind of car he drives (also a reflection of how much money he makes) where he lives (in a mansion?) how he looks (is he fat and lazy?) than their A/W counterparts.

If you're saying "that's just not true." When's the last time you were deeply in love with the fat guy that worked the drive-thru window at White Castle? It just doesn't happen here in the U.S. Don't believe me? Just turn on Lifetime. There is a standard set that a man must be a certain way (and when A/W can't "get" that man, they settle for the next best thing they can) here in the U.S. that just does not exist overseas. Women overseas, once again, "on the whole", would be more willing to fall deeply in love with the fat guy that worked the drive-thru at White Castle.

I think that you want me to elaborate more on the part of how "the AM have put the AW in a position to want more than sometimes we can offer". Let me say first that I do agree with slim although thats an extreme with the fat guy at the White Castle drive-thru. I truly believe this guy is my hero at 5am when he hands me my bag of sliders after a night of partying. Anyhow LisaD, going back in history men were the bread winners. And as time has passed AW have found themselves getting more freedoms (which of course I agree that they should have). For example in the workplace and the plain independence that they deserve. Not to be stuck in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. But what has happened is that the AW now wants to have all that the AM will give them and what they get for themselves. AW have become greedy. Almost similar to the greed of Enron. Tell me that everything is ok but under the sheets it's all f****ed for the AM. When it's time to ante up in divorce court the AW wins time and time again. I got divorced with no kids and I still only got 35% of the assets. Just because I made more money than her. But she had the Bachelors degree not me. But she and many other AW that I know want more and more. I'm not at all bitter about my divorce it's only an example. It's just not enough for them. So as an AM I have found that I want to give what I can to someone that will appreciate what I can offer. Someone that can appreciate what they have not what they dont have. I hope that gives more insight as to what I'm talking about.

And when was the last time you were in love with the fat woman who worked the drive-thru at White Castle? It really goes both ways, it isn't just men who must live up to a certain standard of being, nor is it just women who have high expectations in a mate. That said, every woman who isn't with Brad Pitt certainly doesn't see herself as settling for the next best thing. I'd take my "average Joe", poor college student AM over anyone, any day and to suggest that I am settling somehow is just insulting. You have an unfortunately pessimistic view of "A/W"; some of us aren't so bad. Hope the rest of your VJ goes smoothly for you and your beautiful fiancee, I see she arrives soon, I'm sure your both excited

Oh come on. This argument is ridiculous.

How many American guys here would be hot to fall in love with the fat woman working at McDonald's? How many of you are seeking out the fat ugly women from overseas? Is it just coincidence that the men here are ending up with hot, hot wives - in many cases, far hotter than they could hope for if they limited their search to American women? That's what I thought. To claim that American women are any more deficient in this area of superficiality than American men are is fantasy.

Some can argue if they want to, but I think that, broadly speaking, we can observe two facts at play:

1). Most of the American men that are the subject of this discussion are ending up with far hotter women than they would if they were only dating American women.
2). Most of the foreign women that are the subject of this discussion have different cultural values than American women.

Facts are facts and I really don't think there is much room for valid debate on these statements, as they are phrased. So, that leaves us with the question of WHY? Why are these men ending up with the hotter women, and why do these women have different values, and what are those values? This is where the room for debate lies.

There are lots of theories I guess, but I'll take a quick stab (I have some other stuff to do at the moment). One theory for the hotter women is simply different (not lower!) standards. The hot foriegn women are willing to settle for the less-than-hot men for one reason or another. The question is, why? One answer is culture (which I'll address in a minute). Another is diminished choices. Perhaps their local supply of men is such that foreign men are simply more desirable than local men - for one reason or another. Maybe the local men are fat & ugly too. Maybe they drink too much. Maybe they tend to be unemployed. Maybe they just have bad character. Maybe local culture is such that men are taught to be not very nice to women. Who knows? What we do know is that women are willing to pay tremendous (social) costs to tap into a different supply chain of men.

Now for culture...let's face it, American culture, such as it is, is fraught with problems. In my opinion, it teaches people (men AND women) to be materialistic, shallow, self-centered, short-sighted, and hedonistic. That's a damning analysis, I know, but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You're entitled to yours as well, but right now we are talking about mine. (:

Anyway - People with such a culture can be considered by some, even those growing up in such a culture, to be unsuitable marriage partners. Maybe they simply are not attracted to such people. Maybe they're attracted to them, but have some negative relationship experiences with them. Maybe they actively reject this culture on principle and want someone with different values that are, most likely, going to come from someone raised in a different culture. At the end of the day, what we know is that some men decide to seek out foriegn women, and many of them claim this culture difference or negative experiences with local women as the reasons why. We can take them at their word, or simply insist on believing they just want women who are hotter than they are "entitled to" based on American standards of beauty, success, and class. To each their own.

Now - as for the culture of these foreign women... no one with any intelligence can seriously disagree that women from a foreign country are raised in a non-American culture and this affects their belief and value systems. It's just an obvious given. The question is, what is this difference and how does it affect choice in relationship partners? Again, there are many theories and none is likely to be applicable to all cultures.

Let's deal with the common consideration - that these women are no different than American women, they are simply looking for a better life and are happy to jump on board with a rich man, and that is their primary criteria. Well, hell, sounds a lot like Americanism to me. How can any American seriously criticize this strategy? Yeah, sure, some foreign women probably fall into this category, but hey, so do a lot of American women! Don't resent the foreign women for this - they simply want to make their lives better and are willing to do what it takes in the process, all while hurting no one. Nothing wrong with that.

Another consideration is that maybe their values really are different. Maybe they don't care about marrying a rich and successful husband. Maybe they want to marry a GOOD MAN who treats them well and they don't care where he happens to live. Further, maybe their culture is such that they simply don't place the value on the big house, 5 cars, and other material things that American culture does. Maybe they are less superficial about their marriage partner's looks? Maybe they look at the deeper character? Maybe they know that men who are not "competitive" when it comes to American women, because of their looks, finances, social skills, or other factors, have a lot of love to give, that the supply of such love may have been building up for many years, and they will treat their wife like a queen. Maybe many American women don't marry such men because they don't know these things, refuse to believe these things, or are culturally incapable of believing these things. Maybe while the American women thinks, "well, I want to marry a good man too - but these other things matter a lot!" (or deceives herself into thinking she doesn't care about these things when she really does), the foreign women REALLY thinks these other things just don't matter so much. This certainly SEEMS to be the case, if you read their dating profiles and look at the marriage choices they make. So yes, while these hot women, IF THEY WERE AMERICAN WOMEN, would certainly make different, culturally-induced choices, the fact is, they are NOT American women. They are from different places, have different values, and make difference choices. Further, the BASIS for their choices, and the choices themselves, are JUST AS VALID as the choices American women make, and they should not be criticised for those choices. Let them the hell alone. Leave their men alone too.

Finally, we can address the "fat/ugly/stupid/loser American man treats foreign model-quality/sex-goddess/beautiful women like crap" argument. This comes in three forms. The first form is that such men seek out foreign women mainly for power and control reasons, so they can treat them poorly and "get away with" things they would never get away with in a marriage with an American women. Honestly, this argument is bunk. No man, unless he is just a complete and utter fool, goes through the hassle, bother, complication, and yes, expense, of marrying any women, let alone a foreign women, specifically with the intention of treating her poorly. What would be the point? Honestly, who the hell needs that headache?

The second form of this argument is that foreign women are happy to put up with such treatment because even so, life is much better than before. Again, this argument is largely bunk. Women, no matter where they are from or what their culture is, want to love and be loved - and they know when that is not happening (women appearing on Cops and Jerry Springer excluded). Foreign women don't want to be mistreated any more than American women do. Further, just like SOME American women will put up with years of abuse "for the sake of the children", "because they don't know what to do", want to better position themselves for divorce, or simply want to keep using (yes, using) the man for what he provides them, so will SOME foreign women. This shouldn't be news to anyone, and is rather obvious. Big deal. Users come in all shapes and sizes, and strategy is appropriate for all situations. In the situation of a bad marriage, it's important to develop a good exit strategy, and that may take some time. In the interim, one has to make the best of the present situation. Duh.

The third form is that there really is a group of men out there who are in fact losers and dirt bags. Their beliefs about women and how they are treat women are disgusting. They treat women as trophies and sex objects, and use power and money to control them, all while not loving them. Obviously, this is not a good thing, but it's also a much smaller proportion of men than many women seem to believe. Further, there is a similar group of women who treat men in a like fashion. Such a women will use a man she doesn't particularly love or care about to provide her with a lifestyle she could never manage on her own, father and fund her children for 18+ years, and continue to suck up his resources long after she has stopped loving him because she is too gutless and pathetic to be honest, have an equitable divorce, and try to make it through life on her own. Such women are as disgusting as the men. Both groups should be reviled.

So, in summary, people make difference choices, and they make them for reasons other than the ones we might make ourselves. Big deal. Let everyone live their own lives and take care of their own problems, concentrate on your own issues, and try very hard not to judge other people for their different decision-making criteria because when it comes right down to it, as long as they are not hurting anyone, it's really none of your business. In the meantime, watch your criticism of other people's superficiality. Be more honest with yourself because odds are stronger than not that you (yes you!) are more superficial in a variety of ways than you give yourself credit for. Yes, it's true. And yes, I include myself in this statement.

As for the losers in our society, the men and the women, there isn't much we CAN do about them if we're not willing to address the cultural issues that promote such problems. That's a matter of political issues that no one seems to have the stomach to address, so we'll just have to live with it.

Cheers!
AKDiver

And this is what I've referred to when I mention that my Russian ex-wife became "Americanized", that her choices quickly became materialistic, shallow, self-centered, self-absorbed, selfish and all the rest... at the expense of our married life...

It's not that I begrudged her the freedom to make her own choices and to do things in America, as some have suggested... it's that the circumstances, things, people and directions that she did choose reflected all these negative characteristics of American culture that she was absorbing and adapting to.

-- Dan

AKDiver, I don't know if your post was directed towards me or not, but I just wanted to respond to say that I agree with much of what you had to say; I was trying to make the same point that you much more eloquently made. I didn't post with the intention of judging anyone for choosing a RW, and I hope I didn't come across that way. Whatever happens between consenting adults is cool with me.
-April

Well, it wasn't addressed toward you in particular - but to all the particpants in the conversation, and those who may be lurking on it for entertainment value. Your post just happened to be the one before mine. Actually, the one that inspired me to write was the "fat man at the whitecastle" post. Your post just happened to get posted before I finished writing mine (:

Cheers!
AKDiver

WOW... I have not been here in awhile and it seems to be a debate that surprises me... so I will throw in some answers to questions and add my thoughts...

Someone asked.. what journey.. well, the journey of finding a life partner...

Someone said about using a K-1 for 'dating' or something... I never said I wanted to do this... and I would not do it.. the warning giving was not needed.. SHE was the one who suggested this course of action as she wanted to come visit my family etc..

As to the demographics... there is a misperception in them... there is NOT a very large difference in men and women until the late 30s or mid 40s.. prior to that, there are more men than women. However, men die a lot younger in Russia and it changes quickly after that..

As to going for a Russian or Eastern Europe woman.. well, this is not the course of action I pursued. I tried a couple of dating sites here.. did a few of the fast dates etc... not much luck... in fact, most of the women did not even answer my letters... I am not a 'fat white castle' guy, but am not a stud either... but I make a good income.. I do not want someone who is materialistic.. and have met a few... When I was much younger, my sister wanted to set me up with this girl, but when we met there was nothing.. until she found out I owned my own house in my early 20s.. well, not interested...

back to the dating sites... as I said, not many of the ladies were interested, but one that said she was from my town did and we wrote for a bit.. then found out she was from the Ukraine.. this put me off and I stopped writing.. but did some research and found that this was an option.... decided to start to write and got responses... again, wrote may women and many did not 'click'.. and some were 'hot' and young, but I was not looking for 'hot' and young, but a nice looking lady.. and I think I have found her...

So, some stats.. wrote over 400 women local.. no good matches (it has to be both ways...).. wrote to over 400 overseas.. maybe 10 or so good matches.. narrowed to 2 I have visited and now only one...

considering that this is a MARRIAGE VISA board.. I find it amazing that some here are throwing stones at others... what are you doing here???

A few more thoughts.. there are 25% of women in Houston that have never been married and will not get married... there are more than 50% who are overweight (yes, I guess I am shallow in that I do not want an overweight wife)... so the number available that I would want to get married is low.. and since I did not find anyone... I went looking somewhere else and found someone... if you don't like it... tough..

Give a starving man a stale saltine and he'll think it's the best Ritz he's ever had

So what you're saying is that you prefer a woman with low standards? Do you search for a partner using the same criteria? I remember you saying somewhere about getting the 'hot wife'....so what's up with that?

But seriously....as AKDiver asked......when was the last time you chatted up the fat woman at MaccyDs?

Also...fwiw, I wouldn't date the fatty at White Castle because I am a very ambitious and driven person. And I believe like attracts like. I cannot be with someone who's happy just being...we only have one life, so there's no need to live it being beige....but unlike many...I give as much as I expect in terms of hard work ethic, being driven, being ambitious so that my family can live comfortably. Not that money means everything...but you can't send the kids to college and pay for it with love. There IS a middle ground....you don't have to be all about the money...but let's face facts and stop making it sound like it's completely superfluous either.

Excellent post AKDiver! I too was typing up a huuuuge post the other day to explain to the A/Ws (that for some reason or another have wandered (in force) over to our little forum lately) then I decided that I would just delay carpal tunnel for a little while and save my breath to cool my porridge. You can type all the counter-points you want, but the fact remains that A/W will always look at themselves and other women, and the men who choose those women, differently than we as A/M do.

And all you ladies that wandered in here... by all means, feel free to browse through and post whatever you want... all I'm saying is don't get mad (or huffy, or whatever you want to call it) at guys for making obvious choices when it's the women themselves who set the system up in this manner.

And to take it back to the drive-thru.... the fat woman working the drive-thru is gonna get laid before the fat guy at the drive-thru. However, the fat guy at the drive-thru will find a real "girlfriend" before the fat girl finds a real "boyfriend." Why? Because the guy will attempt to become "exclusive" with the first girl that decides to give him some, (cause it's not often that happens!) and the girl will be "looking for someone better."

I've got my popcorn out..... (and a slyder)




Thanks for making my point!

You seem to talk from a bitter past experience, and while my heart goes out to you, you can't use one or a handful of experiences & think you're an expert on the American Woman. I also don't need a history lesson as far as women's rights, because I think we all here are aware of the path that women have had to walk. Now let me preface this by saying that I believe it's better for the family unit for a woman to NOT have to work a full time job and take care of the kids at the same time...unfortunately tho, this is a luxury that many families cannot afford. When I am a mother, I want to be home raising my children...at least until they go off to school. Unfortunately in this day and age, the double income family is more about necessity than it is about choosing to work outside the home...so what happens remains to be seen.

I only throw this into the conversation to let you understand my perspective before I'm dismissed as a 'femi-nazi' or whatever the term du jour is for shooting the AW messenger.

My qualm with your statement is in the 'American Men have put the AW in a position' bit....and afaic, none of your answer really addressed that. The AM wasn't the driving force of the women's movement. The AW has fought for all these rights...have worked our azzes off....have put in 40 hour days and then come home to take care of the kids. Nothing was handed to the AW by the AM. I resent the implication that you think it's just been easy sailing for women to get where they are today, and for the fact that you think things were handed to us by the AM. It's simply untrue.

See, what many of you are missing is that you speak of these money-grubbing, selfish, self-absorbed idea of a woman...when the bottom line is many of us are hard working, self-sacrificing people who are just driven because we want to provide the best we can for our families. We're working two full time jobs...one of raising families, one outside the home. While it's true that there are women like Paris Hilton who just sit on their azz and expect a man to take care of them, imo they are more the exception rather than the rule. To compare AW as a collective to Enron is so insulting & ignorant, it's not even funny. To speak for us as a collective just really looks like hindsight rationale to justify a choice to find love elsewhere.

You guys are free to look where you choose....I really couldn't care less where you go find love. But I think it's so wrong, ignorant, insulting, etc for you to be focusing on untru negative stereotypes of your American sisters instead of focusing on the positives of our Russian counterparts. I found love overseas as well...I wasn't looking for it, but I found it. And YES my man has many qualities which I love and cherish....but I'm certainly not going to say "I prefer him because American Men are crap"

It's simply not true....

I don't expect my man to take care of me while I sit on my throne. But I do expect him to work as hard as I do. If that makes someone think that I have unrealistic expectations...well then that man is simply not good enough for me & he IS better off going to find someone who's just so happy to have a man that she doesn't mind that he's a lazy loser who has no aspirations of being the best he can possibly be. I know this statement is going to be misconstrued here and fed upon like chum with a pack of pirhanas, but I stand by it's original context.



What point is that? That money does matter in this life? That I expect my man to work as hard as I do? Please explain

Not to mention, you haven't answered my question as far as whether or not YOU would chat up the fat lady at the drive-thru if you knew she had all the qualities you were looking for in a mate.

EDITED TO ADD THE NOT IN CAPS

The point being that to an A/W, a guy's occupation is a BIG part of what "defines" him as a man. Not so much what he does... but what he makes. A guy that works at White Castle (unless he's the district manager) is frowned upon by A/W because he doesn't have a "real job" and therefore, doesn't have any "drive, ambition, goals, etc."

Whereas, an R/W would look first at the guy for who he is, and if he's a nice guy, treats them nice, makes them laugh when they go through the drive-thru.... that's the difference.

Would I chat up the fat lady? Sure! Would I date her... NO!!! Why would I date a fat chick at White Castle when I can date a hot chick from Russia?





You just went ballistic didn't you?

I'm half-way joking, but I'll be honest here. Men look at women's attractiveness the same way that women look at men's jobs and/or social status.

Let's go back to biology class here.... women select mates based on the probability that he will be a good "provider and protector" and men select mates based on how hot they are. Argue all you want, but from cave men til Geico commercials, we're still, ALL HUMANS, doing just that. Sure other things matter, that just gets deeper into the selection process, but broken down to it's simplest form.... that's what we do.

But yet you slam the AW for making a decison based on 'ability to provide' yet you feel free to still judge a woman based on looks.

Please iron this out for me...is it ok for a woman to take what a man does for a living into account? Or is it a case of 'do as I say not as I do?'

Well LisaD first off I have no bitter feelings towards my past. I've made the decisions to be single or divorced. But I dont agree with you on many points. And I truly find it boring to continue this forum in such a manner that is truly based on someones opinion or experience. So why keep beating the dead horse. I didn't stereotype the AW. I stressed that I wasn't speaking about all AW only the ones that I have dealt with. So please dont assume that I was putting all AW in the same category. I'm starting to reply to your post and I would just rather stop it right here. I came to this website looking for guidance which I have found. Now I hope that I can help others find guidance through my experience as well. I wish you good luck on your journey no matter where it may end.

Ok! good luck to you too!

I agree with you on the part about wanting a woman who would become a mother to our children, to be at home and raising them. We did not need a double income in order to support my RW. I brought her over here, supported her, and even bought a house on my single income. Ostensibly this is what she said she wanted... when she was in Russia....

Once she came here, she ~chose~ to go to work, to make her own money, and then chose things that were contrary to what she said she wanted before we were married... ie, NOT wanting children once she had America...

This is what I meant by being "Americanized". That her friends and her social life and spending her money from her job were MORE important to her than the values that ostensibly she said she wanted from a marriage (home, children, motherhood and family).

I do not denigrate the fact that she made her own choices. But the Americanization (as I said before) was that America was now a candy store and she had plenty of pennies to spend in it.

But, those choices she made were not what she had -said- she wanted from the relationship, so then it became my choice as to whether this was a viable marriage in view of the goals I had set for finding a marriage partner...

In other words, I wouldn't have married her had she NOT said to me that she wanted those things prior to the marriage... If she had said "I can't wait to get to America so I can have my own job and spend all my money on myself..." I would NOT have married her.



And I didn't expect her to take care of me, and rush me my slippers when I walk in the door. But I -did- expect her to work ALMOST as hard as I did. And that includes taking care of the house. I was doing 90% of the shopping (think groceries, supplies, garden goods, etc), 90% of the cooking, at least 75% of the laundry (mine and most of the joint households), at least a good 50% of the cleaning, if not more, as well as all the "heavy" chores, repair work and the traditional "man-male" work-roles (think maintenance and repairs).

While basically she thought it was more fun to pal around with her friends and go shopping for her cosmetics and finery and foo-foo, instead of lifting one of her preciously manicured fingers to try and help around the damn household.

Maybe I had unrealistic expectations... I expected a PARTNER in the household, not a lazy-a_s Russian princess who didn't act like she gave a rat's-a_s about many things, except the latest news from the beauty salon.

And nope, she was NOT "good enough" for me, and frankly, she'll be much better off finding some AM who just wants a fashion-doll playtoy, who doesn't mind that she's about the laziest woman I'd ever met, because he's too damn busy staring into her pretty Russian eyes to realize how he's been had... and is being used by a selfish, self-absorbed, self-centered woman (regardless of nationality...)

So no, Lisa, for me the critique is not exclusively directed towards the American woman, but you know, just because she's Russian sure didn't make her the perfect wife either... but I do blame a lot of her choices she made ON the American CULTURE and the American friends she made at her American job... and most of these were not males...



Yeah, well I expected my wife to be a participant in the relationship, the marriage and the household itself...

there's a surprise... to actually invest some work in running the household, without fear of breaking her perfectly manicured nails in doing so... so yeah, not necessarily for her to work as hard as I do, cuz I'm a pretty damn hard worker, but at least to SHOW some effort and interest in more than just "going to cafe for drinks with friends..."

-- Dan

I know of many Russian woman coming over on an American Camp type visa. Many of them worked at a camp site with me years ago. There were many foriegn girls. They place these woman at camp sites around the USA from June through the first week of August. Then they can tour the USA until the 1st day of September then they need to go back home. I worked with ladies 30 and under this might work if she could be away from her kids that long.... Just suggesting its probably not the best option for you.


All the best if you do the Visa route.

Take care

You are probably referring to J-1 visas. There are about 12 different reasons for getting them. But the basic idea is cultural exchange. The theory is, that these generally university students between their 2-4 year, they have 5 year programs in Russia, will visit here and take back their experience to Russia to apply there. In reality this becomes the only plausible way to get a visa to the US as a young single female. However, competition is high for participation in these work programs. Usually a really good TOEFL score, and sometimes a bribe goes a long way. Also the ladies must pay for the program and all travel costs which makes it prohibitively expensive for many Russians without sponsors. Initially I wanted my fiancee to visit me this way, but the uncertainty and length of time for being accepted into the program made us think otherwise and just do the K1.

Just curious Lisa...

Are you an American woman??? If so, then why are you not marrying an AMERICAN MAN?? Is there something wrong with them???

I find it interesting that you past up my post completely... I could not find an american woman that met what I wanted... I want a smart, independent woman.. someone who looks 'good', but not a model, someone who is not fat... someone who puts family first and not a bunch of toys...

I will say you are completely wrong in that you need two incomes to make it in the US.. I would say about 75% of the men who I work with are the sole breadwinner in thier families and the women stay at home with the kids.. some will take part time work, some will do full time for awhile and then drop out again.. but IT IS THEIR decision.. the man has to work and does not have this option... How many couples do you hear that the woman is making a lot more than the man and HE stays at home with the kids?? NOT MANY..

Why do most want two incomes??? They want expensive cars... a boat, a big house.. cable TV, cell phones for everybody... expensive vacations.. maybe even an RV, private school... big screen TV, Starbucks every day (or twice)... eating out all the time.. buying fast food for the kids.. many ways to waste money and say you need two incomes to get it... but, change the livestyle and you do not need that much income...

The difference is Lisa didn't go out LOOKING for a UK guy...she just fell in love with whom she fell in love with.

moving on...


That camp thing you are talking about is actually how my husband and I met. He came over here through CCUSA on a J-1 visa five years in a row!! I met some russian girls working at another camp down the road actually.

totally legit!

And fun too! Definitely an option.

This is the Russian specific page...here

Also the type of J-1 visa Stewart got did NOT have the two year residency requirement. If she does get a j-1 be careful that it doesn't. Some of them REQUIRE that the non USC return to the home country for two years. You can waiver out of it, but just be careful to start!

Which is different... how???

Most guys go out LOOKING for a woman... they even do it at the local bars and watering holes.

We do it at concerts, sometimes we do it at the grocery store, we like to LOOK for women...

in fact, we often do it just because we do it, because testerone tells us to go out LOOKING for a woman...

occasionally we just wind up "just falling in love with someone whom we fall in love with", but a lot of the time we go out LOOKING for a date, a partner, a lover, a spouse. Usually we have to make the first move toward someone we are interested in. And most of us guys have different criteria that tells us this woman interests us.

That's part of being a guy. That's the nature of the male creature, Caroline, I thought you'd know that by now??

Ok, I see, you're referring to a specific nationality or ethnicity???

Ummmmmmmm well most guys I know have "selection criteria" for the woman they are looking for too.

For some guys, it's age, some it's race, some it's color of hair, some it's height... some prefer a certain physical type... for some of us, we just prefer a woman of a certain nationality or ethnic heritage...

and that's a bad thing, exactly why???

-- Dan

That wasn't my point but never mind...

let's just move on!

I will have to vehemently disagree with you! Are you stuck in the 1950's? Where did the 75% breadwinner number come from? My wife and I both have to work full time and its doubtful we'll ever buy a house in San Francisco. Median home price for a 2 bedroom 1 bath is $750,000. Do you know what the mortgage payment on that would be?
We struggle now to make ends meet on two incomes. Rent alone is eating up $1,100 for a one bedroom, where the landlord is living right above us. Welcome to reality here in California. Two doctors or two lawyers are priced out of the market without a substantial down payment or inheritance to even buy a 2 bedroom home. We would love to even go on one vacation a year, have two cars, etc...
And even if the cost of living wasn't so high in California, I would love to have the things you think two incomes can buy. What's wrong with a woman that earns more than a man? I would be so proud of my wife if she did that. By the way, my mother as a registered nurse is making nearly twice as my dad who is an electrical engineer. And such couples are not alone. The Filipino community for example has almost all the women go into nursing with the men working part-time and taking care of kids. Not sure how they do things out in the middle of the country, but that's how things work on the coasts.

ahhhhhhhhh but that's a HUGE difference, between the coasts and the "middle of the country"...

There are huge differences in the cost of living and the housing market and everything else.

So I don't think he's stuck in the 1950's... I think you're stuck on the coast!

-- Dan

Wouldn't trade it for anything. Love California and what it has to offer. I think a majority of the US population is on the coasts, and that breadwinner number is closer to 25%.
Here are some inspiring articles on the subject.
http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/subtem...&ext=mintz1
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~clarkjen/coontz.doc

Hmmm.. before you start throwing stones at me why not READ what I wrote instead of skimming and getting what YOU want to read..

I said 75% of the men I WORK WITH... not all men.. this is NOT the '50s, but real life right here in Texas..

I can not help that YOU have decided to live in such a high cost location... the median cost of a house here is $112,000.. and it is a NICE house.. so, my whole statement about making CHOICES still stand... you have made a choice to live where you do.. so you will have to have two incomes to do it.. which also means you will spend a lot more money to do 'things' since you are both working and neither have the time to do them... and you will not be saving for retirement, but will work well into your 60s or even 70s... this is exactly what I mean by people THINKING they must have two incomes to make ends meet.. you do not..

And I would have no problem with a wife making more than me.. but for some reason women seem to have this problem... not all, but it is an issue.. but I do know of two guys that do make less, and take care of the kids more than the woman.. both love it.. both wifes are miserable...




And ?????? Is she not planning on marrying one??? Where did they meet? Why did she not 'like' the American guys??? There must be a reason and I can slap it down like she seems to be me for the way I found a partner...

OH.. and by the way... I lived in the UK for over a year.. met many nationalities of people... thought all were just great.. almsot got with one from the UK and one from New Zealand... just did not work out..

don't have any problems with any except for the radical Muslims that hate our country..

If you wouldn't trade it for anything then don't complain, because different lifestyles are possible elsewhere in America. If you love California and what it has to offer, then you've chosen that lifestyle, so don't tell us how the other figures are skewed.

As for "a majority", there are LOTS of costal areas that are not so expensive, and there's a huge portion of the country living in between the coasts... Midwest, to mid-south, to western states.

That's part of the beauty of America. Plenty of opportunity for all, and if you don't like the culture or lifestyle of where you are at, you are free to move elsewhere.

Apparently you don't care to move, so don't criticize the lifestyle of somewhere else or say "he's out of touch with reality", especially if you've never lived there, or never been there, even.

-- Dan

You're making my point yet again!

Nowhere here on the Russia Forum are any men saying they didn't select their wife/girlfriend based on their looks.... THAT'S WHAT GUYS DO!!! Granted, many say that "she's different, I liked this and that, or that other thing, or whatever, about her." But no one denies that the girls from other countries are (disproportionally) hotter than what they would find and be able to have relationships with here.

What is happening is that A/W get on this forum and tell us that it's "wrong" for us to be selecting these women from Russia/Asia/etc. because we're "searching" for women based on their looks.

Why are you knocking us for doing something that we do here??? (It is on a much larger scale, and I guess the "browse and click" thing is what's really upsetting to you... I don't know.) When we go out, we look for the best looking girls we can find.... and we don't deny it!

You (A/W) on the other hand, attempt to keep up this false pretense that you're looking for a man (and potential mate) based on sunshine and puppy dogs. Don't BS!!! Be real about it and say "I'm looking for a guy with a good income, and you can reasonably expect me to do that because after all, I am an American Woman!"

Hey, I have to say whether it's Match, Eharmony, Yahoo Personals, or the grocery store. I don't care if the woman is Russian, American, Phillipino, Australian or Peruvian... REGARDLESS of the medium that I meet her, in real life, through personals, through a matching service, a marriage broker, if I see her picture and she's NOT attractive to me, I'm NOT going to be interested.

If guys were not like this, then the entire cosmetic industry would not exist as we know it today. Much less the fashion industry.

Guys are attracted to women for their looks. I don't care if they are Russian, American, Pakistani or Ethiopian. Doesn't mean that we don't like OTHER qualities in a mate, but without a doubt, psychology studies will confirm that MEN like women who appeal to them in the sense of PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE.

Doesn't mean there's not someone for everyone. Maybe the "fat guy and girl" who both work at White Castle can get together over a basket of fries and really enjoy each other.

But I'm not going to invest a large sum of money (I don't care if it's dating, or international correspondence or whatever) in a woman whom I don't find personally attractive.

And here's a news flash!

Men and women do NOT find their partner in the opposite sex for the same reasons!!!

GASP!

So what if women find men for "being a good provider for me and my children"?

So what if men find women because "wow, she really knocks my socks off, she's a fox and a half and babe-a-licious to me"?

Yeah, how shallow of us, but that's how the species gets pro-created, ya think??

The important thing is we FIND each other, and hell, that's a miracle in itself half the time...

Right on, Slim!

-- Dan

We certainly need two incomes if we don't want to rent the rest of our lives. I have to agree with you on that. But I disagree with you about working well into our 60's and beyond. Our greatest asset and retirement benefit is our over priced real estate. Guess what happens if we wanted to retire in Texas? One decent home sold in San Francisco gets you a whole block of decent homes in Texas.
I wasn't really trying to complain. Sorry if it came out that way. I was simply trying to bring up a counter example of a place in America, a rather big and populace place where the breadwinner lifestyle, may be feasible but not practical.
And back to Texasproud who is a big advocate of the breadwinner lifestyle, I voiced my opinion how disappointed I would be in my wife if she was only a homemaker. I think of her as smart and brilliant, and we can always hire someone to clean the home if she is very successful in her career.
Just a different view of life. I guess I read too many feminism books and was not pleased with the 1950's breadwinner lifestyles. And if what you are describing modernly is somehow different, then clue me in.
What is different as I understand according to the articles I posted is that government programs and assistance has all gone down and the price of living has gone up. Making the breadwinner lifestyle in general difficult if you are someone one like me who does enjoy two cars, a nice vacation, a nice home in nice location, etc.

Hmmm.. I never said I was an advocate of what you are calling 'the breadwinner lifestyle'... which I assume you mean that old '50s lifestyle... I said that it is the predominate lifestyle for the people I work with... and I was giving a rebuttal to someone who was saying you NEED to have two incomes in the US.. and BTW... all of them have very nice houses (most in the 4,000 ft range), two or three cars... take good vacations... it is just much easier to do here than in expensive locations like NY, SF, Boston etc etc... And most of them would prefer their wifes to work, but they want to stay home and be 'Mom'.. all have at least two kids and some with three... so PLEASE don't read into my post YOUR thoughts of what I am saying...

My other point is that we as Americans have been brainwashed that we NEED to have a lot of stuff and work hard to get 'ahead'... to have a Lexus, a big home, a 5 star vacation, etc etc... and I just see people working for the American dream, but really missing what the true dream is... having a good spouse, lovely children, a healthy body and a long life...

PS.. adding later... BTW.. having a house that is smaller than mine that costs 5 to 10 times more is not something to brag about... and in the end, what does it matter UNLESS you plan on moving when you retire (which most people do not )... you will just have an expensive house and no or little other assets to live on