That wasn't what I meant. I personally believe it takes more internal fortitude to follow a religion then not. It's all in how you perceive your own life.

Is my mind the only in the gutter today?

well dont wear one then.........problem solved.

It isn't simply a matter of not wearing one. In fact, taking it off does not solve the problem, but rather creates a bigger one. Taking it off gives in to the fear mongering and hatred. Wearing hijab in the face of hostility is a trial and a test that can increase one's faith. It's also a sign to show that one is not ashamed of being muslim

Wearing it proudly and showing the world that you can be a muslim and *gasp* not be a terrorist and a nice person does far more to solve the problem then taking it off. That's my mission every day

I can see that, yes.

Personally, I'm not willing to live by rules and laws from 2000 years ago that don't even apply to me (No relationship to Abraham at all....) in hope that I'll someday go to that great casino in the sky that might or might not exist. I prefer to live THIS life as I want, since I know that it is "real".

Perhaps that means I'm lazy. I don't think so. It just means that I'm a cynic and refuse to put faith into something that I find impossible to logically believe.

It seems profiling passengers that are traveling by air is not just limited to those wearing hijabs or who simply " look middle-eastern" ( for want of a better expression--apologies if this is not PC) ...ladies/anyone traveling with infants and baby formula are forced to drink the baby formula to prove there is no liquid explosives in the bottles, NO ONE is allowed to take any carry on luggage into the cabin ( apart from wallet and passport)-it seems ALL passengers regardless of religion or ethnic background or sex are profiled as possible terrorists.
Just my opinion

edit-spelling and grammar and its still wrong, but no matter

Cian trust me there is a God.....but religion can be a terrible thing... i am very careful about doctrine and i pray to God to give me guidance. one thing that bothers me is when one thinks ones religion is perfect... let me remind people that anything touched by man isnt perfect.for example.. catholic doctrine. some of it was made by man. then you take islam. a man who calls himself a prophet says ok here are the NEW rules and the promise that was given to the christians isnt true. comeon . thats why i pray pray pray and do what Jesus said when he said beware of the false prophets that will come. and the false prophets are not just from islam but there are false prophets in christianity and judaism. i will tell you this and i believe this from my heart......in heaven i think we are all going to be very surprised. there wont be any secular things there. i think there will be muslims jews and christians there. its all about Gods judgement.


well said

It's not a matter of simply profiling and security checks. It's kicking people off the flight/not allowing them on because of their "suspicious" behavior, which includes speaking in urdu, praying in arabic and wearing a tshirt that has arabic on it. Some people on this board have expressed concerns about people who have things on their heads, and as we've seen several times in the last few weeks, "concerned" passengers have been instrumental in booting fellow passengers off the plane for their "suspicious" behavior."

If they'd like to triple check me, fine, as long as they do it in a respectful manner. But if I make it through all the security checks, there shouldn't be anyone on the plane wanting me booted because I look suspicious for saying something in arabic.

I've noticed that you're quite intolerant of change. Is your fiance Muslim? Cuz if he is..you're in for a real treat in the long run.

If ppl are a afraid of a simple piece of cloth on a woman's head that's just sad.

there's another thing to be " scared " of.........a piece of cloth !
In regards to my comment about living on my knees, it was said tongue in cheek, and had nothing whatsoever to do with ' religion '. oups...perhaps ' tongue in cheek ' will be taken out of context, too. I'm beginning to develope an intense phobia about tongues and cheeks.

hold on a minute... u dont have no right to say i am intolerant of change. who do you think you are? i was simply saying if she thinks she will have a hard time because of it then dont wear it. and my relationship with my fiance is none of your business

Jabree..was your mind in the gutter with that statement? Please say yes

Is it morally right that people judge everyone who is Islamic on the actions of the fanatical few? NO! Of course not! But it is human nature and human nature is flawed and not always fair/rational.
Some people are scared ( some OVERLY so), so soon after all that has happened. Is that a good excuse? NO-but there are often NO good excuses for human nature ( especially frightened human nature).
It's awful that the good people of the Islamic faith are not as high profile as the extremeists/fanatics/fringe element!
More Islamic clerics/scholars who represent the mainstream need to be reaching out more to the " frightened and not so rational/uninformed" masses. Is it fair to you and the rest of the mainstream? NO! Unfortunatly the mainstream are forced to "pay" for the choices of the FEW extremists.
The problem lies in seeing/reading too much of the fanatical few ( and what they are trying to do) in the mainstream media, and not enough of the moderate majority of Islamic people; in an effort to get people to understand their religion...etc ( and I don't mean the constant diatribe on here over whats happening in Lebanon etc.... I mean an effort to get people to understand Islam and that those few fanatics do NOT represent the basis of Islam)
There needs to be understanding from BOTH sides here.

This is a public forum so yes, I have a right to say anything I want. The fact that you put info about yourself and your fiance also makes it up for grabs...sorry. Anyhooo....many of your statements point to intolerance. Remember this one?....my fiance will use TP, I will not put a watering can in my bathroom..something to that effect. Everyone knows Muslims use water to clean after the toilet. Will you also tell him he's not allowed to eat Algerian food because he's in the states now? Boy do I feel sorry for him. Now women shouldn't wear higab because other ppl don't like. We live in a big, big world full of all different kinds of ppl. Deal with it.

I'm me...that's who the hell I think I am!

No, Mrs.Z.....I was just trying to add a little humour to this rhetoric. But a little gutter never hurt.

I took that comment as better to die fighting then giving up.

A little humor never hurts either We all need humor in the midst of this process.

Others may disagree but my personal interpretation of Islam is not one of subservience. We serve God but there is a benefit and reward in that. i.e. - similar to how you feel good when you make other people happy. However, I don't need God to do what I know inside is right or to keep me from doing what I know is wrong and would conduct myself in much the same way without belief. I have friends who are atheists that I feel "serve God" more than most overtly religious people I know - their motivation is that it is what they feel is proper conduct in this world.

I see subservience as a one-way street in which one party gets the benefit at the expensive of the other. I also am not much into the hellfire and brimstone aspects of religion.

Regardless, I respect the choices of people to choose any religion or none. I don't think the religious are better and oftentimes, religion is used to do heinous things.

yup, and thanks.

first of all you have a smart mouth. got it? i am not intolerant of my fiance and we have a good relationship. i went to algeria and followed his culture when i was there. second, my fiance knows i am not a muslim and we have been together for almost 3 years. and you feel sorry for him? do you have any idea what i have done for my fiance? so let me get this straight you see me post my OPINIONS and you think because of what i post on VJ you can judge me and my whole relationship with my fiance. i wasnt saying for her not to wear it because other people didnt like it. i was saying dont wear it to save her some trouble and have an easier trip thats all. i wore a hijab there in algeria just because it would keep people from staring at me and it was thier culture. samir has to adjust to american life as i have to adjust to algerian life when i am there. and for your information you seem to be intolerant. just because i am engaged to someone from algeria doesnt mean that i am in that culture, he loves me for who i am and understands i am not a muslim and he has been able to accept that. i fell sorry for your bad attitude. and if you think i am one to take your crap you picked the wrong one...............

Hehehehehe..mission accomplished. I love the smell of pissed off in the morning.

You don't know me, honey. I don't have to explain nor brag about what "I've done" for my husband or how much he loves me. Aren't you sweet? You're gonna let him be Algerian but he's gotta "adjust" to being American just like you did for him. Puleeeeease!

I'm proud of my Egyptian husband and I hope he stays that way even here in the good ol' US of A.

Yes, I'm intolerant...intolerant of ppl like yourself.

I don't know what else the mainstream is supposed to do. They have signed petitions, gone on television, had numerous campaigns, advertising campaigns, had open houses at mosques, engaged in interfaith dialogue and activities, etc.

The person who makes these generalizations also bears responsibility in how they choose to let their mind be formed.

When the Prophet cartoon protests were going on, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) chose a peaceful approach. They offered (and continue to offer) a free DVD or book about the life of the Prophet. You don't hear people talking about that response. What should they do?



Sharon,

With respect to you, there is a difference between "following his culture" and having an appreciation and respect for it -- and out of that respect and appreciation, a desire to incorporate some of that into your life.

You are right, " just because i am engaged to someone from algeria doesnt mean that i am in that culture".
I think for many of us, we have willingly and happily chosen to take a part of our husband's culture into our lives because we recognize its beauty. This is certainly a choice that you don't have to make.

Peace,
Rebecca

it would be nice if Mrs Z knew what she was talking about before she attacks someone. kind of hypocritical for her to call me intolerant and she jumps on me for mentioning i didnt want to put a watering can in my bathroom and that i was just giving that girl some advice. not to mention i cant even remember how long ago i said that about the watering can but, if i do recall others in that forum mentioned they didnt either. seems like to me if you remember that from that far back you need to find somethnig to do cos girl you are totally out of line. and not to mention even tho this is a public forum that doesnt mean you can say whatever you want. i know this from experience. so keep that in mind when you attack people.

On that note (which would really make an interesting thread in and of itself), one thing that I looooove about my husband is how he is open to accepting and embracing the good in american culture/society. We both have little pins with the Egyptian and American flags that we wear proudly. On his Egyptian message boards, he has both flags in his signature with the phrase "egyptian american muslim." He'll defend this country against unfounded accusations and theories spouted about the board, and still engage in critique of this government.

I try to make our home a blend as well, although I need to try a little harder to bring in the egyptian flavor, since the overwhelming default is midwest america, which is quite different from delta egypt.

The blending of the two cultures is one thing I love about our relationship. I'm not simply an american anymore, and he isn't just an egyptian. We're an egyptian-american family.



If you're reading this sweetie (and I know you're lurking there somewhere), I you

thanks rebecca and i do understand that... there are plenty of things that we plan on doing. i am learning how to cook algerian food so i can surprise him at ramadan by the way do you know of any sites in english that might have various recipies?


i totally agree rahma.. thanks it is just i cant stand mean people like her and the way they speak to me.... she is just wanting to start trouble. sounds like a miserable person to me. sad really

Oh but I do know what I'm talkin' about in regards to stuff you've posted about yourself. I'm not making stuff up here.

At any rate...sometimes ppl annoy me and if they happen to be in a public forum I say what's on my mind. Sorry if you took it as an attack. Sometimes I get tired of blowing sunshine up everyone's azz, ya know? It's just too nicey nicey around here sometimes for my taste.

Rebecca (Bosco) is right in what she said. She's far more eloquent than myself.

Matthew 6 : 27 - 37 . Not to offend anyone, but these verses come to mind after reading a few of these posts.

Sorry, Jabree. I'll play nice from now on

oh really like what things? i am not on VJ much anymore.... i dont have much time. i havent posted anything about myself that is so bad... there are some things i disagree with in islam and such, but, i dont hide things from my friends or my fiance. so what? thats the beauty of the relationship we sit down and talk about things. you learn alot of things that way. i might not agree with islam, and post my opinions, but, there are some things in the islamic culture i do like. i have met many wonderful muslim people at VJ not to mention the ones i met in algeria. i have opinions like anyone else and i tell people how i feel about things and they tell me how they feel . thats life. and if you want to be rude to people just cos you think this site too rosey for you then maybe you should go take out your anger and frustration on someone else.

I do not want to get in the middle of any wars. My post should have also highlighted how I am also willing to embrace Egyptian culture. Even though my husband came here, he's still an Egyptian, and I do my utmost to respect and embrace his cultural/religious habits, be they wearing sandels in the house, learning arabic, keeping a watering can in the bathroom, or waking him up for fajr prayer.

The respect of culture in the relationship is a two way street, but for those of us here in the United States, we need to be extra sensative to the needs of our loved ones who give everything up back home to join us here. It's a huuuuuuuuuuge adjustment to move to the United States, and doing everything we can to embrace his culture will help him adjust much better here. We want to do everything we can to make the adjustment easier, not harder by ignoring things that are important to him.

so sorry, i gave the wrong scripture....Matthew 5 : 43 -48

i can totally understand that ... i twould be very hard for me to adjust to algeria. i will do my best to make him comfortable.

That's what I was trying to get at except I'm too aggressive for my own good.

Well said, Rahma

Oh MrsZ , say what you want ! I am not offended at all. Its just i wanted people to know I harbour no resentment towards anyone.

well i need to get ready to go to work.... i am ashamed of myself for wasting my time talking about a watering can in the bathroom...............................goodness. hopefully one more month to go (if that) and he will be here.

Chit chatting with your good pal..me ..isn't as much of a waste of time as.....POST BOOSTING!!!!

Hehehehe just had to get one last one in there.

Have a good one! Good luck with Samir Arab/Muslim boys make for fun toys don't they?

I do not even pretend to have an answer to that question " What should they do?" and you don't hear people talking about the response you mentioned because it certainly was not well publisized here; or in my work place and I work for the aviation industry.
Peace to you also
tmma

well i had time when i did that and you know what? dont ever call samir a toy. you are talking about my fiance and i dont appreciate it. you must not be muslim or even christian for that matter because look at how you act? you have nothing better to do than to be hateful to me when i have done nothing. leave my fiance out of it.

Awwww you certainly are a sweetie.

Muslim girls are mouthy too

Too late to edit to my last post......

PS about the book on the " Life of the Prophet"--as interesting as that sounds, I think people want to hear from the Islamic heirarchy [sp]about the current conditions we live in-not about the life of the Prophet.

Condemnations repeatedly of the actions of the few extremists....Modern day life as a Muslim and what " jihad" actually means, and why we see hatred toward America and the West. Myths need to be dispelled quite obviously.
Why won't the extreme fringe follow the instructions/high clerics/scholars of the very religion they operate under/for.
I know this sounds rudimentary-- but have to cater for all walks of life! It's fear of the unknown that is creating the fear for most people.

Also-I was in Bosnia on the UN OJG peacekeeping mission, and I was spat on and had trash thrown at me purely for wearing an American flag on my uniform sleeve. I was actually in a ground convoy at the time; in a Muslim neighborhood to pick up land mine injured civilians to take to the MASH unit for treatment. I still have no idea why they seemed to " hate Americans". After all these years I still do not understand/ know why at all. There is so much more my story-but none of it pertinent to this, suffice to say these were not " extremeists" but every day folks living in a troubled area of the world.
There seems to be no understanding from either side at all.

God = the undeniable aspect that existence is

Subservience to God = submission to the will of God = acceptance of that which is... purely and simply. People can twist it into what they like. Buddhists refer to it as "being". But that's it in a nutshell.

I dont understand all the complaints on profiling muslims. I am originally from Pakistan. I know that someone wearing a tshirt with hebrew text would have been asked to take it off. Infact there are no tshirts with urdu language text in Pakistan. I am frequent traveller with an average of 4 round trips a month and have been to the smallest and largest airports in US and Canada. By the grace of God have never been yet singled out. I mind my own buisness. And so should most travellers. Now here is my question
-Why would you want to wear a tshirt with arabic text on it on the plane. You know the situation around the world.
-Why would you want to start reading the Quran on the plane. You know the issues. If you want to pray, you can pray silently and recite in your heart. Its that simple.
My mom and wife wears Paki dress when she travels from Pak to US (on American Airlines) and Trousers for travel with US. Its just that simple. She has never had any problems.
In my view, mind your own buisness when travellings. If you need to wear hijab, simply take the numerous muslim airlines( turkish, egypt air, PIA, Saudi, Emirates, Qatar etc). or travel by road if in the US. If you are wearing hijab, do you really have to go to the waterparks in Florida.
Jews and Christians (in roman times) and throughout history adjusted their ways to suit the prevailing times. Its the turn of Muslims now.
Many people will simply answer this by saying that they want to have the right to wear anything they want. True. But its the stuborn folks who get into arguments and make the rest of us look bad. All middle easterner should realize that even though they may have been born here, they are not natives of this land. Trying going back to Saudi, Yemen etc, the difference between natives and non natives could be seen. Pakis are not even discriminated against even in the middleeast. I dont understand why the middle easterners have such a problem when it comes to them in US.

A simple search for "Why is America hated" will give you many ideas. You may not agree with the reasons, but that would be an answer to your question.

The point of the book and DVD was to show non-Muslims who the Prophet was and stood for as opposed to the representation made of him by the cartoons. It was a targeted response to that specific event.

As far as the peacekeeping mission, I find it unfortunate. I know that in Kosovo the initial response to American peacekeepers was generally warm and welcoming. A friend of mine over there talked about how some (some not all and certainly not most) of the peacekeepers would be making fun of the Kosovars to their face or make rude comments to the women. Later he reported what he felt was increasing resentment on the part of the Kosovars. It could be the same in Bosnia. The actions of a few create a dislike/distrust of the whole (not unlike the reactions to Muslims). I saw similar changing of sentiments towards American when I was involved with refugee resettlement/return.

Should we aspire to be like Saudia, Pakistan et al, or should we aspire to uphold the ideals of the constitution and the ideals that founded this country?

Since this is a country of immigrants, very few of us are natives here. As different cultures come, we blend and add more to the mosaic. I'm proud to add my european heratige and muslim faith to this country's flavor. Of interest to you, perhaps, is many of those who contributed to this thread are in fact, not middle easterners, but rather american women who have embraced islam. I know my family has been here for close to 2 centuries. We've fought in the civil war, world war 1, world war II, etc. I'm about as native to these lands as you can get, short of being a native american.

The key here are rights, as you mentioned. I'm not going to give up my rights because someone is uncomfortable with me. With that attitude, blacks would still be sitting at the back of the bus. We're not second class citizens Last time I checked, there were, ideally, not suppose to be any second class citizens here.

Now I am going back aways so I can say a few things!




I lived in Germany for a few months last year, about 20min from the Manheim base. I worked for an american family who were based there, and there were pleanty of muslim people living around us. Not once did get the feeling like I was hated because I was american and a christian! We never ever had any problems with muslims in Germany. It was the Germans that tended to give us problems for being americans. But we didn't let it bother us. This was after 9/11.

I'm pretty sure there has always been discrimination against every skin color. Wether you be muslim, christian, jewish, budhist, etc., people with white skin tend to discriminate against others that are different. (I'm not saying this is all white skin people btw) Throughout history it's been repeated over and over. The "first settlers" of the US (White) discriminated against the Native Americans (Brown). The Germans against Jews. Heck it's been more than that. It's been like this since the beginning of time. The Bible even talks about it somewhere how there were slaves. Someone has always thought they were better and tried to make everyone see them as that. I think it's wrong. I am an American Muslim. I have a German/Irish/Native American backround. I get looks when I where hijab on days I attend mosque. It's my choice. Yes I do feel it's wrong to think that every single muslim is a terrorist! Even before I met my husband and started looking into Islam, I thought that muslims were just people with a different belief. Of course I heard how they were responsible for 9/11 and all, but that still didn't make every muslim bad. I hate it when people sterotype a group and that is what it seems a lot of people have been doing with muslims. Not all muslims, as stated in previous replies, are dark skin. So they are going to end up harrassing all the wrong people eventually and miss all the right people!

So I don't know where I'm going anymore. I have been taken away from this for a little too long. I hope they eventually put an end to all off this before it's too late.

(I hope this makes sense to someone, it doesn't to me anymore! )

I was not taught that to wear trousers was more American than wearing salwar kameez, or that to wear a cowboy hat was more American than to wear hijab. I don't think a gandora is less American than a mini skirt. Why should eurocentric practices outweigh those of other cultures? Those of us with European heritage are not somehow more entitled, more American (although many think differently). A white face isn't more American than a brown face, New York accented English is not more American than Egyptian accented English and Chinatown isn't less American than Greenwich Village.

It just goes to show that despite differences of opinion/religion it seems there is common ground after all! if only everyone in the world could reach such an impasse!
The actions of the ignorant/extreme fringe ( on BOTH sides) colour the perception of the majority; therin probably lies the problem! ( I have a habit of stating the obvious), but this exchange has been informative and thanks for responding.

As a side note the Former Yugoslavia is a beautiful country ( gorgeous beaches, fabulous historical sites, mountains and lakes and varied weather regimes) with great potential if they could sort out the differing ethnic problems there.

The problem is that so many people believe that Americans of all backgrounds should adopt what is typically thought of as "American", i.e. the eurocentric culture you've described. Otherwise you are considered to not have assimilated.

Where did you get that idea from? Many many muslim women in algeria do not wear. A hijab is not a toy to play around and wear it when you want and then take it off when you don't want to. It is a religious garment, not a cultural one. Men stare at women in Algeria regardless of whether they wear hijab or not. I wore a full black gown with black head covering and still got stared at by men. and I don't dress any differently in Algeria than I would in the U.S.