Ok gals, ya'll who have been here done this, tell me if you used em or not. Before my trip to Morocco, my fiances grandma (who helped raise him and was more of a mother) convinced us to go along with an "engagement ceremony" (being sure here not to call it a wedding) because she is very old (in her 90s) and her and his other family and friends there would not be able to be in the states to take part in our legal ceremony here. She said "I am old, I want to see my son marry before I die, that is my wish." So she planned, orchestrated and paid for an elaborately beautiful 2 day ordeal. A video guy for the entire 2 days, live band, I think 100 or more chickens were sacrificed, my own personal hair and make-up guy and attendant/dressing girls, etc. First night was the henna of course fully dressed out ritual, second night the ceremony complete with 7 dresses. Oh was I ever exhausted, but I know my grandmom was more so, she was there like a general every step of the way giving orders and overseeing and even bellydancing...lol We did exchange rings at the end and yes everything was done as a wedding would be I suppose, however there were no "vows" exchanged, no papers or contracts signed, no government or religious officials in attendance, basically no "legalities". We have over 600 photos total of the ceremonies, some professional and others just from the video and family and friends there snapping shots. We have about 200 of the entire rest of the vacation excluding the ceremonies. Now, I had doubles printed of everything one set for him (well for his grandma mostly, she'll keep them when he comes here) and one for our album here at home. I am working on picking out 100 or so shots of the entire trip that show us laughing,smiling playing, kissing, adoring looks etc for an "interview" album only.
I have heard of others having issues with interview/immigration who filed K1 and the officer calls it fraud because they should have filed K3 even though the marriage was not legal. So, my question is, should I use the ceremony shots at all in our interview album (there are some great ones there) or just leave them out altogether??? Thanks in advance for any help

DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, USE THESE PHOTOS.

You will be denied if you submit anything that appears to be ceremonial.

Jen

I agree with the previous poster.... DO NOT use any of those photos. Use other photos showing you together from other times.

Why jeopardize your approval in any way?

There have been a few threads recently about this issue here on VJ and the overwhelming consensus, as articulated by previous posters is, DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR TO A MARRIAGE CEREMONY!

We had probably 20 pictures total for our K-1 interview and another 20 for our AOS interview. Neither interviewer said anything about that being too few.

i have been told also that because of the muslim culture... not to show photos of ya'll kissing... but, you may want to ask the other ladies...

good luck!
God Bless,
Lynne

Wow, overwhelming consensus so far... No ceremony pics, but kissing? Really? Well, I already told ya'll my sweetie is Not your average moroccan muslim male, we did lots of kissing. So, no ceremony shots, possibly no kissing shots, what about the laying in bed afterglow pics, those are really really lovey dovey. Come on now, you guys are eliminating my best photos ...lol j/k Thanks for your help it truly is appreciated. I think the main reason I was kind of wanting to show some of the ceremony pics, was the Huge support from family and friends. I was kissed and hugged by so many people, I'll never remember them all. But you guys are right, i'll stick with the others. Let me know about the kissing thing though

Ok, I don't usually chime in here but I have to disagree heartily with the others. I sent about 80 photos in our I129F, all mounted with captions and neatly bound down with the acco clips.

I sent photos of the entire engagement ceremony including the milk and dates, ring exchange and dancing. I also sent several of us kissing. I was very careful to label everything "engagement ceremony". You can look at our timeline to decide for yourself on the impact of this on our progress.

From what I have seen Morocco is very concerned with validity of relationship and pictures of the two of you kissing will confirm that you actually get intimate - not something so common in a "green-card" marriage.

Abdel said in the interview the guy had our file in front of him when he called him up and he was smiling at the photos. Abdel also had on his engagement ring at the interview.

So, use the photos. Boldly declare your love to the consulate. A huge engagement ceremony is traditional there, and if you don't have one it can be more suspicious than having one. That's what they want to see. Good luck!

Thanks Liz for adding a different point of view here. I tried to look up your timeline but it said no link found? Your pics are beautiful btw. I had to laugh remembering that date and milk thing (I hate milk) but I endured. Really this whole thing can be so darn confusing. I mean, granted, there are fraud green card marriages coming from morocco, no dispute there, and the consulate has to do their job. The thing that gets me, is here we have a genuine relationship, lots of love and support from family and friends. Neither of us think traditionally when it comes to the environment we were raised in, and both are outspoken in what we think is wrong with the world today and how stupid people and societal stigmas can be. He can't stand to hear of arranged marriages or marriages not for love, he thinks all people should have a right to choose in religion and that God loves the person not the religion, He also believes God sees the heart of a person and not the routine acts of devotion (like getting drunk on saturday and going to church on sunday) He believes in physical expressions of emotions and loved holding me closely everywhere we went and kissing every 5 minutes. I agree with him on all of the above and think our society is way too accustomed to mistaking physical attraction for love. That's Probably one of the main reasons I took the time to get to know him and give him a chance. Before we met online, I was hit on daily by men. I've always had male admirers and men attracted to me for my looks, but very few of them actually got to know the heart of me or when they did, they wanted to change me and mold me into their vision of what they wanted. When he saw my profile, there was one picture of me in it, no location, age or other "personal" info listed just a Lot of interests, quotes, poetry etc. I think a lot of women nowadays turn to internet romance for just that reason, I did. I mean after finding myself 30 and single after being married all of my adult life, dating was a scary nightmare. The bars and clubs aren't safe and who wants what is there, and meeting someone who isn't just after your body or a pretty armside aint easy. The internet gives you space and time to know someone at a deeper level before physical chemistry takes over. He messaged me regarding a quote listed in my profile by a philosopher he knew, and it grew from there. He had no idea how old I was or where I was from, and when he first asked me of my race, he assumed I was asian. We chatted for weeks, no webcams (I refused, wasn't interested in another male admiring my looks) just really getting to know each other as friends. He was happy with what he saw eventually...lol But that's another story. One year from the day we started talking, we met in person, no rush there either, we both wanted to be sure.

Point is, this is who we are, me and my sweetie... all the kissing, holding, lovey dovey, closeness with family... All of it is who we are, and wanting to celebrate our decision to commit with his family, especially his grandma who once he comes here, he may never see alive again at her age, is a part of us.
The thing that really doesn't settle well with me, is that to prevent being seen as fraudulant general consensus seems to think we should hide parts of ourselves. Yes, there seems to be good reasonings for this line of thought based upon consular experiences... But how screwed up is it, that this embassy has made us fear that if we are open and honest about who and what we are, they will think it a fraud? Something just aint right with that scenario.

All very admirable. Trust me. Most of us share your feelings. However, if you choose to share these pictures, you will be doing so at the risk of having them mis-interpreted, no matter how accurately they are labeled. Honeyblonde was lucky. There have been others who have not been so lucky.

Good luck with whichever course you choose.

Jen

There have been several posters on VJ in recent months who have had their K-1s denied because their engagements ceremonies looked too much like a marriage ceremony and in one case, the fiance was turned away from the POE at least in part because he refered to his fiancee as his wife and wore a wedding ring.

When I first started looking into the visa process in 01, I bought a popular book on fiance and marriage visas that said that it was a-ok to have a religious/cultural marriage ceremony and even use that as evidence for the k-1 visa and that the USCIS wouldn't care. That has definately changed since then, as evidenced by the number of people who have been screwed by this.

We were religously married but didn't utter a word of that during the interview process.

oh god!
NOT THIS GAME AGAIN.

if you are married say your married stop playing the " lets pretend we are not game"
no one learned nothing from golden heart. this is bad!!!
BE HONEST TELL THE TRUTH! its harder to be DISHONEST than to be HONEST!!!
once you LIE - you have to keep on LYING ... all for a bloody K-1? your gonna risk getting
a bann. dayum that is selfish.

Thanks for the reply Jen. Not sure really what I will do yet, just reading the experiences and opinions here for now. We have time to think on it. I do like hearing experiences with this situation from ALL points of view and routes though. A part of me says "whatever it takes to get the visa" another part says "it doesn't feel right" and yet another "i'm an adult dammit why do i have to get permission from anyone" lol

Calm down Shon! We're not talking about lying or pretending to be something we're not here. Moroccan culture has two ceremonies - the engagement and the wedding. They can be held as much as a year apart, sometimes more. Moroccan men wear engagement rings (at least some do) as well as the women. The problems couples have encountered was when they referred to each other as husband and wife before the legal marriage and slipped and spoke that way in front of immigration officials. Abdel and I called each other rajli and mrati before we were married too, but were aware that it was just being affectionate, like lovers tend to do, not a term we could use in front of people that had to be aware we weren't married yet.

The engagement ceremony is not a marriage. No wedding vows are exchanged, nobody is married in the eyes of Islam even. It is much like the betrothal talked about in the bible where two people vow to marry each other. This vowing to marry does give a couple much freedom in the eyes of the family to become more intimate in many cases, since the family then sees the intended spouse as being serious.

I've watched many many couples on this site, and I'm giving you information based on what I've seen here. I've been here over a year now so I've seen a whole lot. it is vital that your fiancee never call you his wife, and always say engagement and fiancee. You two sound like an intelligent couple so that shouldn't be a problem.

Your fiancee actually sounds very much like my husband. He said he was drawn to my intelligence and happened to like the way I looked too. We've been married over 6 months now, he has his green card, and we're more in love than ever. We're still kissing every 5 minutes and falling asleep late at night after deep intellectual discussions. Right now he's sweating his arse off working in a sugar refinery and the first thing he told me to do with his paycheck was offer for my youngest son to go back to college. You cannot imagine how much my sons and my family respect him. Good luck on your journey!

I happen to be one of the most selfless people on earth fyi...
If I go out and hire some elvis here in the USA to perform a marriage ceremony for me and my fiance without first applying for a marriage certificate, am I then married?
And were I to go around shouting "we're married we're married" when neither the USA or Morocco sees it that way, wouldn't that be the real lie? I simply want to know from the experience of others here who have used and not used their ceremony pictures, how the experience went for them. Have you or your fiance had an interview in morocco for K1? Did you have a ceremony in morocco before filing your K1? and if so, did you or did you not use photos from it and how was that experience from your point of view?

Really, you have no idea how happy hearing your story makes me. Congratulations on your success! I'm glad to know your sweetie is here, and you're still kissing every 5 minutes. In my opinion, that is a must in any successful relationship, well at least enjoyable... lol After hearing stories of denials based on the calling of a fiance a spouse, we have both become very cautious of that, even in alone talks. Thankfully, my fiance does speak very good english and yea, he's a smartie, one of the many things I love about him.
Looking back, had I known what I know now about the fiance/spouse confusion, imbra delays, etc. We may very well have chosen to stay the extra time tracking down real marriage papers and filed K3... who knows, but what's done is done and all we can do is the best we can from where we are now. We filed our K1 just a week or so before all the imbra crap hit the fan...lol just another hurdle, one way or another, we will make it through and be together. Good Luck to you two ... oh and your son, how awesome

well how about learning a little knowlege.. if you are MARRIED you cant COME on K-1 visa!~~
your cheating by failing to registar the marriage! which you know is illegal. you keep the game going
by hiding your own pics. I hope everyone that plays that game get CAUGHT!!!!! saddly those Unknowingly
get caught too. but you are KNOWINGLY trying to FRAUD.. Hince the TITLE of your TOPIC. when you LIE you have to keep on LYING and one more thing- The embassy DOES conduct Field investigations.
if they ask neighbours if you married and they say yes- your goose is cooked! if you go in this with
clean hands - you should have no problems smooth sailing.

here is a grim reminder:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=15648&hl=

I don't always agree with you, Shon, but I think you have a valid point here (maybe expressed a bit harshly, but still a valid point.)

I'll probably cause a few folks to get their knickers in a twist by saying this, but it seems to me that some people DO try to "have it both ways." They have an "Islamic marriage" in their SO's country so that they can spend time alone together, even consummate their relationship without upsetting Muslim sensibilities. (I am certainly not pointing the finger at the OP here, as she clearly states there was no marriage contract nor any papers signed.)

But then, since they are convinced that a K-1 process for fiances will be "quicker" than the K-3 or CR-1 for spouses, they don't "register" the marriage, so that they can claim to U.S. immigration that they are merely "engaged."

So now we get into the question of.... when is a marriage not a marriage ? Is the answer "It's a marriage when it serves our purpose, and not a marriage when it doesn't ?"

Seems... well.... deceptive to present oneself as "married" as far as the family and community (not to mention, God) is concerned, but merely "engaged" as far as U.S. immigation is concerned.

So I would agree with most of the advice given here -- it doesn't seem prudent to use such photos as evidence of a fiance relationship. As Shon points out, even the title of this thread adds more confusion as to what exactly the relationship is.



-MK

Not to divert the thread or anything, but my husband and I relied on the legal advice from an earlier edition of this book, that said that it was perfectly fine to have a religious ceremony and still apply for a fiance visa. It stated that USCIS doesn't care about anything other than a legal marriage, and hey, even mention your religous marriage at your fiance interview. So, we started planning the whole visa process in early 2002, got married religiously in 2003 and finally applied for a fiance visa in January 05, all the time relying on the information from this book that had come highly recommended from a lawyer friend. There wasn't anything surreptitious about it. We didn't even know it would be a problem until I found VJ in the midst of the K-1 visa and found out that things had apparently changed.

I would like to know when this mindset changed. I wonder if I write the author of this book if she'd respond. Hmmmm.

Thankfully, most here on this forum are supportive and helpful in giving advice. You would think, in a place such as this, with relationships such as these, there would be a lot less judgement and hate going around but oh well, the world is what it is.
The reason I went the K-1 route, was because my sweetie is my "FIANCE" not as yet a husband. We did not have the ceremony so we could have sex together or to appease either of our religious preferences (neither of us are religious) and no religious offical was in presence or anyone else who is liscensed to perform any marriage rites. Nor were any marriage vows spoken, papers or contracts signed etc And we did not do it because we cared what anyone thought of us or our relationship. Nor did I know of or think that the K1 was faster as compared to a K3. We filed K1 at the recommendation of an attorney, I was in no way intending to cheat law or time by any means. We had it at the request of his 90+yr old grandma who wished to in some way before she died be able to see that ceremony. Also, before going I specifically asked my fiance several times if he was sure about the legalities of this ordeal and he assured me it was in no way religiously or legally a marriage. Do I feel or believe we are married before God, State, Country or have any rights to claim any of the rights of married persons (such as insurance etc) NO... I do not and neither does my fiance. Am I committed to him and him alone, YES very much so.
Now opinions aside here, the "Legal" word from my immigration attorney who has worked several cases through Morocco is in today. She says that a ceremony of dress and dates and milk and friends and family is considered an "engagement" in the moroccan culture (is also quite common with marriage taking place several months or a year later even) and until legal and if islamic, religious avenues are pursued, we are in no way considered by anyone married.




Lol... let me know if you get a response from that author please. I would be curious to hear her take on this now.

soul_encounter,

We did a small engagement party with just family, we dressed up in Moroccan clothes, had a celebratory meal, and did the milk and dates. We included all of these photos, and the CO was actually particularly interested in a picture of me with his mother, with both of us dressed up. I think yours might be more complicated/confusing because it's going to be so big.

I certainly don't agree that you're somehow "cheating" by having an ENGAGEMENT party/ceremony and then applying for K-1. That doesn't make you are married and nobody should think you are.

We ran into absolutely no problems, and I thought it strengthened our application as we showed that his family was included and supported us.

That being said, there have been one or two instances recently where officers have thought a couple was actually married when they weren't and there have been some problems as a result. So you might want to tread carefully here. I think the fact that it's going to be a very big party might make it look more like a wedding and more "suspicious."

Anyway, the moral of the story is, plenty of us have had engagement parties and have had no problem, but there have been a few instances where some doubt was created (though they are not from Morocco) by having a wedding-like ceremony. I think you have to decide for yourself what to do. You might want to just include a few photos of you in the outfit, with the family, etc., and not show any of the big party.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I know it's confusing.

Well you've cited Shonnie's post here, but you seem to be answering issues I raised in my post as well.

Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having an Islamic marriage and then being deceitful about it in order to get a fiance visa. Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having a religious ceremony in order to have sex. In fact if you will read my post again, I pointed out that you made it CLEAR that you did NOT have such a marriage. So if it's my comments that have gotten you into such a huff and made you so defensive, I don't know why.

However there ARE many who have done the "we're married before God, but we're not officially married" thing, and even given the details here on VJ.

I think what set Shon off is the title of your post, referring to "Engagement/Wedding Ceremony" photos, and perhaps the comment about the grandmother "wanting to see her son married." It's things like these that get the situation all confused.

What most of us are saying here is that an elaborate 2-day ceremony complete with henna, 7 dresses, hair and makeup artists, hundreds of guests (I estimate hundreds because you mention a hundred chickens slaughtered for the feast,) a live band, a video photographer, even in your own words "everything done like a wedding" -- well all this may obviously look like a real wedding to the average Joe, and certainly to the Con Off. I know you're proud of your wonderful party and you should be, but the pics could easily be misinterpreted and that's why we're saying DON'T SHOW THEM as "evidence" of your fiance relationship.

Try to focus on the useful advice and information given in this thread and all over this site. It'll help you keep your sanity through this crazy process.

Wishing you all the best of luck....



-MK

I'm totally lost abot this idea of an "Islamic" marriage for sex. In Islam, you're not married until you have a means of enforcing the conditions in your nikah, and in Morocco, you are not married, religiously nor legally, until the court deems you eligible, your nikah is signed with the adoul and registered in court. Until then, there is no enforcement for the responsibilities in the nikah, no protection of rights incurred, both required in Islam to do justice. Besides, elaborate parties may be fun, but they are disliked in Islamic law as being wasteful and ostentatious; it's recommended that the kind of money spent to produce such an event be best spent on the poor in zakat, so they're not even sanctioned by Islam.

If you do the fake "marriage" for sex (and I'm not saying that's what happened here), then you can't answer honestly that you are a virgin before marriage, which seems to be a concern for some COs, I understand, and you're not really married. You're not halal religiously and you've kinda backed yourself into a corner legally. If you want to be married, just do what's required to get married. All that prep time and money for the engagement party could have yielded a valid nikah, then nooky and a K3 would have been in order. Grandma would have had her dream wedding too.

Me, I wouldn't show those pics. I'm confused just hearing about them!

I didn't take offense at your previous post, that's why I didn't reply directly to you. I did note that you specifically tried not to implicate me in those motives and appreciate that. Yes, I have heard others here too say they did the ceremony to feel better about having sex or to feel more comfortable with their religious choices. Not that I am making any judgement on those who choose to do this or those reasons as that is surely their choice, and personally what matters in the end, is how they feel about their choice and if it was the right one for them. I just wanted to be sure, my motives were clearly understood by those reading this as they can often be easily confused. My sole reason in agreeing to that whole ceremony, was a sweet little old lady who was paying for it all. (very unselfish reasons as it wasn't what i wanted) Honestly, I was pretty terrified and overwhelmed by the whole thing, and even in planning our wedding here (as much as I can at this point) i'm thinking "Simple", family, close friends, 30 - 40 guests tops, outdoors, earthy... lol When planning my first trip to morocco, yea i knew I loved my sweetie and wanted to be with him, but to plan on "marrying" him the first time I actually met him in person, feels a little off to me. Secondly, I only had 2 weeks to stay and have heard it takes a month to legally marry. I really just wanted that time together to be sure of us and that we were right for each other for life.

I can see where the title may have been confusing to some, but the whole ordeal was confusing to me. I went into that ceremony clueless and didn't find VJ or others who had encountered this until after the fact.
As for what set me off, It was being lit into by another at a place where you would think judgement of anothers relationship or character would be a little less high. Perhaps the title and even a sentence or two of my origional post echoed my own confusion over the situation, but to be called a fraud a cheat and selfish was out of line. I think anyone who truly followed my posts and words could easily have distinguished my confusion in a word or two from fact as most did. My pet peeve in life is anyone who thinks or tries to impose their own sense of right or wrong on anyone else. If I had a friend who I watched making a choice that I never would have made or felt was right for me, I would still support them knowing that just because that choice wouldn't have been right for me, it might be for them.

I do appreciate the time reading and understanding my posts that you and others have taken and the helpful and honest advice. I do understand where others are coming from in saying that the elaborateness of the ceremony could cause more problems than good if interpreted by the wrong person or even the right person on the wrong day. At first, I had fully planned on sending everything, but after finding VJ a couple of months ago and reading experiences of others, it caused me to question that decision, hence this post. I am considering carefully all the replys here in making my decision.

Sanity is hard to come by these days for sure...lol But thank you and best of luck to you and all in this crazy situation.



Thank you for your reply kerewin, it is great to hear from all sides of this experience. I really don't know if I am going to include a few simple shots or not at all at this point. But I am sure of this, although it is not what I wanted, terrified me completely, when I look at those photos and the video, and see my grandmom smiling, dancing and chanting along with the rest of his family and friends, I'll never regret it. Even if by some unforseen force it causes us a few extra months of delay, how could I be sorry I let him and his family celebrate that time together? It makes me sad to know that they will not be a part of the actual wedding here, but at the same time, I feel wonderfully loved and supported that they did all that they did for me then.




Thanks for the reply, I don't understand the islamic law on it all for sure, and neither does my fiance being he doesn't practice, go to mosque, or read the Koran. We weren't planning on being legally married or doing any vows until he comes here, so learning of and understanding the legalities there weren't a big concern at the time. And the money, wasn't mine or his to say what to do with. Thankfully here in the States, we don't have to answer that "virgin" question...lol
How long a period of celibacy does it take before one becomes a born again virgin anyhow? j/k But it has been months now...

How long a period of celibacy does it take before one becomes a born again virgin anyhow? j/k But it has been months now...
[/quote]


1 Year Soul Encounter Just kidding! I like that question though

Different countries have different procedures and customs.

When I was married in Sharia court in Palestine, a simple sworn and signed statement that I was free to marry, notarized at the U.S. Consulate, was accepted as the "certificate of celibacy."



-MK

Soul,

I'm really sorry you had to endure Shon's ignorant lambasting for asking a simple question. This thread reminded me why I left VJ and why I am leaving again, this time until we need to renew our green card in a year and a half.

For many intelligent level-headed people this website is a source of valuable information on the process and an opportunity to learn from others experiences. Unfortunately for many not terribly intelligent definitely not mentally-balanced people, this site is a place to blast their anger at the world, and for others a source of amusement at those who do. I do not find this behaviour at all amusing and in fact am revolted by it. I never was a Jerry Springer fan.

If any of you want to ask me questions about the process (I figured out how to attach my timeline to my profile, thanks for letting me know it hadn't been) please PM me and I will get the message in my e-mail. I would like to remain friends with many here which is why I came back this time, and I have enjoyed some of what I have read here lately, but this crap is definitely not worth wasting my time on. I end up getting upset when I see a normal person ask an innocent question and some mindless illiterate idiot who obviously can't even read the post they're responding to start screaming at that person.

Every person here needs to remember that each consulate is different, so what you experience in one country, even a "muslim" country, is not necessarily what will happen in another. Even within a country there is going to be a lot of difference between couples. SZ, for your information, Morocco is considered a moderate Islamic country and old traditions have as much influence in many areas as Islam does. My husband is like Soul's fiancee - he doesn't practice Islam. His family and the community he grew up in love to party and will celebrate anything lavishly. You have no right to judge others for spending their money how they choose and living life to it's fullest. Just because you choose to be religious and live a life of abstinence doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just seems to make you more judgmental and rude. I've tried to speak kindly to you on here and you've verbally slapped me in the face. I see I'm not the only one you're going around slapping.

From what I've seen in this forum over the past few months those Muslim's who complain so much about others judging them need to take a hard look in the mirror. Many of you come here and horribly judge others in this forum based on what you think they should be living their life like. Grow up! We're all individuals! Not everyone is going to believe how you do.


This part is not aimed at any specific person, just a general discussion, I'm just posting it here because this is my last post.

I know I'll probably get banned for this post, so I might as well let it all out. I've been biting the tip of my tongue off for months now. To those of you marrying little boys and wanting us to pity you when they act like children - freaking grow up! Sure I dated guys in their 20s for the past 10 or more years before I met Abdel. I even married one that was 10 years younger than me and would have told you many times on here just how stupid that was, but I know you're "in love" so you don't want to hear. Do you think things will be any easier once these children get here? If they are annoying you now when they are a continent away, trust me, they will annoy you every day once they arrive. If they don't respect your life or your feelings now, they aren't magically going to start to the minute they arrive. My ex even apologized to me last year after he saw a friend of his go through the things he put me through and he realized how immature he had been. This is an issue that has nothing to do with race or country but everything to do with the realities of being married to someone many years your junior. Couldn't you have found an American kid to date for a while to see the problems with that kind of relationship before you just jumped into an international marriage? Oh well, I did it, so I can't really say much, but I did want to finally tell you how I felt about it and what to expect. i don't think all age differences are so bad, once a guy is past about 30 he starts to grow up a little - but 21 or 22? Come on! My sons are that age and I couldn't imagine them being married.

next topic: Give me a break on the "Arab men aren't marrying that many American women." Yes they are! I still have folders full of messages (which I keep for future reference because I write) from men in Arab countries begging me to marry them for a green card. Many of the kids in their early 20's, especially Egyptian, would flat out say that it was for a green card. For over 3 years I blocked so many Arab men on ICQ and Yahoo it wasn't funny. All of them asked for marriage quickly, and vowed to be great husbands if I would just help them get the magic green card to a future. Many of them were brilliant educated men, like the doctor in Iran or the Engineer in Iraq, educated in the US and unable to make any money in their own countries. I'm an economics student, I understand the problems; I'm not condemning them, they have to live too. Don't stick your heads under rocks and pretend these things aren't happening. Be smart enough to make sure that the one you choose to marry is going to actually love you and be someone you can spend your life with. Like the awesome article posted in another thread said, many of them do become great husbands.

Last thing - please women, get educated. Amera, I learned so much from what you posted of your paper. I admire you and the way you stuck with your education even through impossible odds. Some of you on here are so brilliant I will truly miss you. Twila, that stupid woman had no idea who she was talking about when she said what she did about you. You are a wonderful brilliant woman and are smart enough to see the world through eyes that Debbie will never have. Sharon, I've always enjoyed talking to you - nice to see a doctor that can make me laugh. Wife of Mahmoud - you are a wonderful lady. You can always address a sensitive topic with tact and try to sort out hurt feelings - you'd make a great ambassador. Angel96 - what can I say - you're one of the lucky ones - beautiful inside and out. Jenn - you too, hope you're enjoying Italy. Rahma - I love how you stand for what you believe without judging others. I can't even think of you all right now - oh yeah, Noura and Rebecca - thank you both for being the best shoulders I had to lean on throughout the hard times - I consider you both my best friends. Salwa, I didn't get to know you better but wow, you're awesome.

For a lot of the rest of you - please quit judging others and grow up. This site should be for sharing and helping. It's not a place to vent at the expense of innocent people or to come "rack up points" or waste people's time posting stupid nonsense because you're bored. Then again, maybe it is, which is why I will leave instead of expecting anybody to change. Enjoy your lives, and may you get the results that will be best for your future.

Very disappointed,

Liz

LIZ....
You will be missed, bravo for speaking your mind and calling a spade a spade. We will be in touch and I too consider you a dear friend. Inch'allah, one day we will meet in person - you and Abdel, me and Said. Thank you for all you've done and said. You too, have helped me thru some difficult hurdles and I will never forget that. You will not fall into the networld.... I'm keeping tabs on you sister!
Love ya honey...
Noura

Thanks for your kind words Liz. You will be truly missed by me. You and Abdel are very lucky to have each other. Take care!

Angel

I am not ignorate, Su gente!

NONE of you - were by Goldenhearts side the weekend her heart crushed. none of you. if you never
heard the sound of hearbreak- I promise you would not want to. its the most horrible sound you ever wanna hear!

you know I tried to get the OP to do the right thing. Thats is registar her marriage and stop
playing games with her and hubbys life! thats all. its so easy to BE HONEST. The OP rather take it
the hard way and start practiceing lying. I dont care if NONE of you agree with me, I dont care if
all of you hate me. My statements come from 2 things..1..the pain of the process she has gone through
2... the pain Golden heart from the weekend her heart was broken. dayum me for trying to point her in the
truthful direction!

Honey blonde- hey if you wanna leave BYE!! no one is stopping you. everything you called me and anyone on here a finger is pointing right back at you.

SZ, for your information, Morocco is considered a moderate Islamic country and old traditions have as much influence in many areas as Islam does. My husband is like Soul's fiancee - he doesn't practice Islam. His family and the community he grew up in love to party and will celebrate anything lavishly. You have no right to judge others for spending their money how they choose and living life to it's fullest. Just because you choose to be religious and live a life of abstinence doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just seems to make you more judgmental and rude. I've tried to speak kindly to you on here and you've verbally slapped me in the face. I see I'm not the only one you're going around slapping.

First of all, honeyblonde, I have lived in Morocco and own a home there; I've forgotten more about the place than you will ever know. And I have every right to post about the law and Islam. I'm not here as a non-Muslim with a non-practicing Muslim husband. You did speak kindly to me, but you also made an assumption about me, which I corrected. There was nothing judgmental about setting the record straight.

I suspect that the only reason I appear rude and judgemental to you is because the answers I give aren't what you want to hear. Fine. Please, if you don't like my answers, please don't read them, but they are geared toward the deen that I and the majority of Moroccans relate to, and I'm not going to relate secular answers or endorse sin when people are talking about tradition and custom in a predominately Muslim country.

From what I've seen in this forum over the past few months those Muslim's who complain so much about others judging them need to take a hard look in the mirror. Many of you come here and horribly judge others in this forum based on what you think they should be living their life like. Grow up! We're all individuals! Not everyone is going to believe how you do.

This is the Middle East and North Africa forum. That area of the world is predominately Muslim, and, WOW!, some of the people here trying to get visas for their spouses will be Muslim, too, with Muslim values - practicing Muslims with the kind of responses that practicing Muslims tend to give. While non-Muslims deserve all due respect, I am not one to apply secular reasoning to acts that are being judged by what is traditional in a Muslim country, one that I know well. If you feel pride in representing the non-Muslim world as an influence who doesn't practice abstinance and wastes money, I'm not stopping you.

I'm sorry that you have a bad attitude toward religious people and consider them to be anything other than judgemental when they post as if the rules of social Christianity, Judaism and Islam have validity. I don't complain about being judged, and I don't spend time worrying about being judged. Anyone who wishes to express their ideas of secularism won't be blasted by me, but I will feel free to express my views as well.


PS - My answer wasn't to you anyway, Liz, and it didn't seem to bother the person to whom it was directed as much as it did you.

very nice response there!

Thanks. I'm wondering what practicing Muslims here are expected to do. Are the only "good" Muslims those who give secular answers and never refer to Islam as part of the tradition of Morocco or any other Muslim country? Perhaps what we need is a caveat at the end of each requesting post telling us exactly which group they want to hear from and what kind of answers are acceptable, like: "Non-practicing, We want secular answers only, no judgemental religious responses please." Then, maybe fewer feathers will be ruffled.

yes, thats what is needed.
I would think someone would rather know the 'WHAT IFs" instead of having everyone agree to one
side of the problem. I certainly would like to know all the sides of a coin in any choice I make.
may it be good, bad or ugly. its true when you say things that go against that persons grains
they will not like it. my biggest worry is someone getting in a problem they can not handle.
this process is too hard. why can people make it smooth and we just get along.

Liz

I will take time to say goodbye to you privately and thank you for your responses. It is a shame to know there were great people like you here to learn from at one time.





I'm not gonna do it, not even wasting my time

Liz... i will miss you... and i wish you and Abdel the best... if it is okay, i still have you on messenger... and will give you a holler every so often... *hugs*... you have always offered support and care to me... and i appreciate you...

Oh wow.

Shon... why do you keep going off about a marriage here ? Soul_encounter has answered you, and made it clear that there was no "Islamic marriage" or papers signed. It was an engagement ceremony that admittedly LOOKS a lot like a wedding, but since there were no vows or contract -- how can you keep insisting it actually WAS a marriage, and that she's somehow "cheating" or "lying" ? You have a point about other cases that did seem to cross the line, but here... just cool your jets...

By the way, Shon is going through one of the most arduous and lengthy ARs ever seen on VJ, so I will give her a break for being under extreme stress.

Liz... sorry to hear you've had enough... we will miss your experience and your level-headed voice of reason. You made some excellent points in your "swan song" post (but I hope it won't be the last we hear from you.) You are a smart and classy lady, and I wish you and Abdel all the happiness in life together !

Now.... I don't think szsz is trying to be judgmental, she's trying to be helpful by just telling it like it is in the context of a Muslim country such as Morocco, and in the context of Islamic attitudes. A lot of ladies here did not have much knowledge or experience involving the Middle East/North Africa or Muslims/Islam before meeting their SOs. Often they don't always understand what is "normal" or "not normal" in these cultures, especially regarding legal and religious issues. Many ladies here do not even speak or read Arabic. I'm not putting anyone down, but all these factors can often lead to misunderstandings and mistaken ideas.

Yes, some of the ladies here are new Muslimahs, and some are learning Arabic , but you can't expect to absorb everything about an entire culture in a couple of short visits, or even in a year or two of a long-distance relationship.

One thing about Muslims -- they often speak what's on their mind without mincing words.

Anyways, I hope no one takes personal offense at what I've said here... I am wishing every single one of you happiness and success in your life.



-MK

you know what. Goldenheart did not have anything signed either.
infact hers was done over the phone. yet - her husband/ fiancee is BANNED!
you all make choices for your life - its on YOU. its weird how like the same people on here
were like " oh golden heart I am so sorry- blah blah " then this poster is about to walk in the
same Poo " you are like oh hide the pics, do this do that ". dayum me for even trying to say
hey BE HONEST. To me when you are not 100% truthful in this process it has away of comming
back at You.

Shon,
I do recall reading some of her ordeal. If you had read mine and hers, you can easily see it is different. She did have a religious official orchestrate the "phone wedding" with witnesses for the intent of making their being alone together ok in the eyes of god and their religion and to protect her rights in case she were to become pregnant. I still think she was very wronged because "legal" is what should matter and is what is presented to us in immigration laws addressing what petition to file. I think I clearly stated i had no religious official in attendance and it was neither a religious or legal marriage.
Also, several people did not think I should send the photos or necessarily agree with me. I appreciated any and all views that were expressed with politeness and respect regardless of what point of view they took or whether or not they agreed with mine. You did NOT address me with any manner of respect. In fact, you assumed to make judgements on my character.
Look, this is going nowhere, if you can't see that you were not being helpful you were being rude, judgemental and disrespectful then you never will. And that's ok, you can have whatever opinion and expression of such you desire. I ask just one thing of you, for the sake of helping others reading these posts here understand their journey, if you address one of my posts, or I yours, use a little respect or we can just pass each other by.

[quote name='wife_of_mahmoud' post='280892' date='Jun 29 2006, 01:43 PM']
Oh wow.

Shon... why do you keep going off about a marriage here ? Soul_encounter has answered you, and made it clear that there was no "Islamic marriage" or papers signed. It was an engagement ceremony that admittedly LOOKS a lot like a wedding, but since there were no vows or contract -- how can you keep insisting it actually WAS a marriage, and that she's somehow "cheating" or "lying" ? You have a point about other cases that did seem to cross the line, but here... just cool your jets...

By the way, Shon is going through one of the most arduous and lengthy ARs ever seen on VJ, so I will give her a break for being under extreme stress.

Thanks for that enlightenment, I am truly sorry to hear of anyone having an unnecessarily hard time with this process. Even a "Smooth" (if there is such a thing) process of this anxiety can make the best of us edgy and paranoid. Good luck Shon, I hope you get relief soon. SE

Now.... I don't think szsz is trying to be judgmental, she's trying to be helpful by just telling it like it is in the context of a Muslim country such as Morocco, and in the context of Islamic attitudes. A lot of ladies here did not have much knowledge or experience involving the Middle East/North Africa or Muslims/Islam before meeting their SOs. Often they don't always understand what is "normal" or "not normal" in these cultures, especially regarding legal and religious issues. Many ladies here do not even speak or read Arabic. I'm not putting anyone down, but all these factors can often lead to misunderstandings and mistaken ideas.

Thank you for that. I don't come here to insult people nor to make enemies. I was shocked to see myself called judgemental in a post that was full of judgement. I made it clear that my remarks were not addressed to soul_encounter's situation specifically. I am interested in warning women who don't know the lay of the land against fake marriage and toward doing things in the prescribed manner to get the results they desire. I'm new here and was not aware that the only non-judgemental comments are those that are amoral and/or neutral regarding religion.

Salaam