There has been a lot of talk and concern about the "Moroccan Embassy" and their all too often denials of petitions based on age, cultural or traditional differences. I feel for and agree with you ladies whose fiances/petitions have been treated unfairly. I can not imagine the heartbreak or stress, but I like others not at that interview yet am sitting here wondering how best to avoid being in that situation.

The thing that erks me the most in these cases is how they stereotype our guys as predispositioned to this or that. Certainly it is predjudiced or even racism at best. Having a strong case addressing your red flags as some have suggested is definately a good thing, but as others have pointed out, the proof doesn't always have a chance to be presented.

I can't say our strategy will work, as it has not yet been tried, but here is my plan. First things, one of the reasons I love my fiance and became so close to him, is because he is "nontraditional" and even considered a "rebel" by some of the older traditional people in his country. I could relate to that, because it has always been a part of my personality too. Yes we have a 3 year age difference, but honestly, we had no idea of that in the first. It didn't come up in conversation until much later in our talks, which i do have all archived and highlighted "interesting" points. My fiance is "muslim" but really, let's think of that, did he have a choice? Does he even know of any other religious alternatives or could he choose to be anything but? No... you are whatever you are born into in that country and nothing else is ever allowed to be presented. (Please any muslim friends here, do not take offense, I respect ALL religious "choices" and honor anyones choice, that is not the issue here) I see in my fiance, many things that lead me to believe, had he ever had a choice, it may not have been that one. He is always critisiced for wearing his hair untraditionally long, his grandma teases "it is pretty like a girls", he never goes to mosgue, does not say the prayers and doesn't even know the methods of washing before prayers. He does ocassionally drink, he smokes, and he talks of things like choice in religion, beliefs etc. He was upset his half sister never got a "choice" in who she was to marry and felt it totally unjust going on and on about "these "old" ways of thinking". His mother, whom I met love and adore, has been divorced twice, and is pursuing marriage again even at an age of more than 50. (I am divorced twice too) He was raised by his uncle who conceived his first child out of wedlock with a "girlfriend" and the uncle always supported the child. Heck, the childs mother even found a husband in Morocco to marry her after conceiving and giving birth to an illegitimate child. The uncle later married, is still married to the same woman now has 4 grown children and 2 daughters in their late teens early twentys one of which was recently "proposed" to in the traditional way by a young mans male family member, and they told their daughter "it is your choice" and allowed her to refuse him.

I could go on and on about the nontraditional family and state of mind my sweetie comes from, and what evidence I have seen with my own eyes how not "ALL" moroccans are one way or another. My plan is is to focus on his nontraditional family and actions and hopefully show he can not be put into a stereotype. He is a unique person, all his own, an individual, not some role others may think of.
I just hope in the COs determinations, they can see the men for who they are...

Hmmm...I can understand the frustration, fear, worry, unsettledness you are experiencing as you enter into the critical waiting/interview time. But honestly, I don't think the proposed plan will make any difference - I would really hate for you two to spend a lot of time on this and have them not care. If I were you I would focus on how much you two know and care about each other. Showing them pictures, and giving solid evidence of your relationship and strong commitment. Does your fiance speak English? If not, or not really well that is something he should really be working on and developing because it makes a difference. Those people who end up on AR are there for security checks, on their names. Whether or not they are a "traditional" Moroccan or not is not in question - and it could work against you. They could be more suspicious because he has chosen to "rebel or be outside of the norm". By husband is a very traditional Moroccan (aside from the fact he married me!), but he is also young and has adopted different ways than even his older brothers have. We didn't have ANY problems in our interview and recieved our visa the next day. It's not hopeless. There are only a few on here who have had really prolonged waits on AR- most eventually get the visas in a few weeks after being put on.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here, and while the practices of the CO's and the American government towards Arab and Muslim (Americans!) let alone visa-seekers is discriminative, racist, and down right anti-American (equality for all people...hmmm...) it is legal. The United States doesn't have to let any immigrants come in and has every right to seek for the safety, protection, and sovereignty of the United States. And that's what they argue. Unless we plan to run for the Senate or Presidency there's not a whole lot we can do to change it. But to accept it and prepare ourselves to do everything we can to be with our loved ones. The racism/ discrimination doesn't get any better once they are here - just to prepare you!

As I said I'm not trying to discourage you, or take the side of the USCIS because honestly I think they are morons that don't know how to properly do their job 95% of the time. I just don't want you to spend the time and be prepared to have your plan work. Instead prepare to show them how much you love and care about each other and how real your relationship is. If he spent all the time discussing how different he is than normal they might think your relaitonship is bogus and he's looking for a green card. This really is a game of chance. Even the strongest cases get scrutinized. I wish you the best of luck and please don't take my comments offensively - I just want to prepare you!

If you really want a visa out of that Consulate...show him the strength of your relationship. Have him petition for you...go there and live for 6-12 months. If your relationship survives this, then Im sure that the Consulate would also be more inclined to grant a visa.

You need something more than "I met him in a AOL chat room, and I went and visited for 10 days, and now Im madly in love". They may believe you, but they wont believe him.

Homeland Security cannot tell the DOS to grant a visa...they dont have the authority. Their job is to determine that you submitted a valid petition. It is the DOS job to determine the validity of a relationship. The US has been burned so many time on fradulent marriage visas, that now they take their time. What do you think the 2 year conditional status is all about??...its to weed out the fradulent visa seekers.

You are dealing with a country and a culture where the US takes extra effort. You have to fight them on their own ground.

Good luck.
Someday the ladies in the other thread will stop complaining and do something to demonstrate the validity of their relationship.

FOXXXXX

Do you have any concrete suggestions on how to get them to let you prove the strength of your relationship? The problem is, people are going in and the COs are refusing to even look at the evidence offered. I agree that making as many visits as possible, for as long as possible, should help, because they'll have that information prior to the husband or fiance going in for the interview. Unfortunately, living there for 6-12 months often isn't an option. So how do we get them to look at what we want to present to them? I think that's the crux of it. Maybe you have some ideas on this, because we haven't come up with much.

Hi SE,
I dont think 3-year age gap is as much of a "red flag" as a 10-15 year gap.

I myself am 3 years older than my fiance. (ok... 2 and a half) It's much easier for people who have only a 3 year age gap to be able to relate to each other generationally, and have more in common, and common frames of reference even if they grew up worlds apart.

While there are a LOT more valid relationships now with older woman/younger man (just look at hollywood!), some people just can't let go of ingrained beliefs and assumptions. Unfortunately, that means some of the people going through this process will have to work harder to prove their love.

Good luck, but as I said: your age difference isn't all that great.

I am 11 years older and really didnt have any problems. The problem we did have was because my fiance at the time lalygagged and did not forcefully seek a police certificate I told him he needed :-( until 2 weeks before interview and wouldnt you know it the police report came the day after the interview.

I took no offense at your honesty, you were very kind and thanks for the advice. I am preparing everything I can think of, not just the above stated focus really. We have polaroids and studio pics of our time together and travel, video footage of the engagement party, over 1000 pages of a years worth of messenger archives, cell phone records for the past year and half, monthly internet phone records, letters and cards the children and I have sent to him weekly, letters from 3 employers here willing to give him a job, letters from his friends and family there mine here supporting us and who were with us in our time together, all travel tickets and receipts, passport copies, all emails from either of us copied and saved (we spend an hour a night on the net together, he then spends an hour with the children playing games with them and then calls my cell for another hour night to talk me into sleepy oblivion...lol And he speaks, reads and writes english fluently. He took a class after we met just to better understand me.
I know chance plays a huge part in this, but I have heard the age and previous divorce issues were pretty much always scrutinized in interview, I know our age isn't so great and I know his answer to the divorce question is simple "If my mother is deserving of love again after 2 marriages, why not my fiance?"
It is very good to hear your interview went relatively smoothly. I love the happy ending stories.
Honestly, when I met my sweetie, neither of us was looking to fall in love. We were just chat buddys passing time and learning from each others experience and culture. Even after an "attraction" grew, we didn't how to handle it. He couldn't understand why I couldn't just pack up my kids and move there to his home. After all he is the man, the provider (not totally untraditional). I did consider and check into it, but with my divorce and custody agreement, we couldn't make it work and have me keep custody of my children. Only then did he understand my dilemna and agree to come here if it were the only way for us to be together. Still, it took me one year to get up the courage to go and actually meet and spend time in person with him... lol
It all comes down to making the CO's see us as "people" "individuals" ... get to know us our history, and not just 2 names on a few pieces of paper.




If I wanted to can my career and job and leave my kids behind, sure, moving there for a 6 - 12 months, might be an option. The job ... ok... hard, but i could do it, the kids no way. We checked into that, living there in his home, was our first choice.

Give them as much evidence as you can regarding his relationship with your children. That really (I believe) made a HUGE difference in our case. I was a single mom of a 2 year old. We had spent almost 2 months living in Morocco (i was a student so it was a lot easier to do that). But we had a lot of pictures of ALL of us together. (me, my son, and husband) as well as family pictures with all of his family. The CO did ask him about my son, how old he was, what his name was, even about the custody arrangement. He said she spent more time talking about my son than our relationship. I think he was able to prove not only did WE have a strong relationship but also that my son was a very real and valid part of the relationship. I think it's so great that your kids do spend time talking to and sending him mail -- MAKE SURE THE CO KNOWS THAT!!!!

Kerewin is right. I think the problem in a lot of the cases coming out of NA/ME is not that there isn't proof or that we don't want to give it to the CO's but that they won't even look at or consider it. I really don't think this is legal (but nowadays they make law by decree it seems)- but what can we do about it? How do we get around it? I wish you the best of luck with your interview and with your new family!

I can't believe you even said that desert_fox! Shame on you. You have NO idea what those of us whose petitions have been returned have actually been through. We are not complaining, we are TAKING ACTION. We have demonstrated to the USCIS, DOS the validity of our relationships and we are getting our petitions reaffirmed. We are sharing our experiences here in an effort to help someone else going through this consulate (Morocco) avoid this happening to them or at least have something to go by in the event it does happen to them. After everything you seen people go through on this site in an effort to be together "legally", how can you be so shallow?

~Kiyah~



Ok, I do see how the other thread got out of hand. I just saw this statement posted by you and remembered how helpful you were here when I started out in this process...I was shocked to see you say this about anyone having trouble with the consulate as I and many others have had.

~Kiyah~

And the drama continues..

You are BOTH so right here. It seems the laws and guidelines do not apply anymore, or at least this consulate does not care about them even existing.

I wish anyone going through this consulate luck...and yes, there are happy stories coming out of this consulate so it is not completely impossible, just difficult.

~Kiyah~

I'm considering leaving VJ... this is a bunch of crap.

I hope you don't leave Icey, you have a good heart and always have good advice. Its just so hard to hear people tell us that we didn't do it right. These people just like stirring the Sh#$. We would all be wise to realize that these people talk out of the a$$e$ and to not even respond.

Now, for the original poster. A 3 year age difference isn't going to be a problem. I know of someone that has an 8 year difference and her husband didn't even have to go through the AR. It is wise though to recognize all of the red flags you do have and be prepared to show it. I do agree with (can't remember who) the person who said that using the unconventional approach won't help. They don't care if he isn't traditional, and it might appear you are trying to hard. You have to play the game their way. Just go prepared and I am sure all will be fine Incha Allah.

Thanks for that tip, I was hoping my fiances relationship with the children would be significant to them. Mainly because, it is not just me and my fiance, we are a family here and the children love him so much and can't wait for him to be with us. I would hate further emotional stress over this seperation for them moreso than me. My youngest has a whole list of places and things she wants to do with him. I have sent him copies of their school grades and awards, He IS just so very much a part of our lives. We discuss matters with the children and their upbringing and how to handle certain situations before I take any action on them now. We all need him with us so much.




The last thing I want is to raise more unecessary questions... but the truth is, both of our rebel want to change the world attitudes was one of the common personality traits that drew us together...lol He was way too liberal and open for his culture and I am way to strict, uptight and conservative for my american female role...lol Oddly somehow we fit just right together in that middle ground. Thanks for the advice ladies, it is great to hear from you all...
And all of you who are still waiting due to messed up interviews in casa... God be with you Even imagining that pain and stress is hurting me now.

Paula (Ohiobuck) got kind of shouted down in her post on another thread, but I think she had some very good advice in there. When the CO asks how you communicate, don't just say email, pull out and show all the emails as you're saying it and show it to him/her. If she asks about your relationship with your SO's family, pull out the photos. I think this could be a really good strategy to "force" them to look at your evidence.

PLEASE...

Be sure he gives all the proof of your relationship right away. Even if the CO doesnt want it, make him insist that he/she looks at it! Don't let it be the reason for a return!!

AND>>>

if at all POSSIBLE...be in Maroc for the interview!!!


hugs

chi

Personally, I think being super-aggressive with anyone, much less an over-worked consular officer, will not in any way help your case. There are ways of showing your proof of relationship (like others have stated in previous posts). Just as an example: my husband (then fiance) and I sent quite a bit of proof off with our visa application. It was not a truck-load. However, it showed various methods through which we communicated (mail, email, ecards, chat transcripts, telephone records). We also explained in the "how we met letter" what some of our similarities are. I think giving this information to the consulate ahead of time makes the process easier. (Although my husband still brought more proof and told them him had it...they did not want to see any of it. His interview was pretty straight-forward. Then again...they weren't maybe some of the red flags that I have seen with others.)

Twila

The problem is one of marriage fraud - not on the part of unsuspecting Western woman -- but on the part of the (mostly younger) Moroccan men who devote all of their spare time to wooing women on the internet, then proposing to them. I am NOT suggesting that this is the case with you -- just that it is happening so much that it is considered something of an epidemic here in Morocco.

Every time I go to the consulate I meet newly married women from the states with their Moroccan spouses - there are some themes: 1.) met on the internet and/or 2.) woman is greatly older than man (somtimes 30-40 years and/or 3.) couple seem extremely unnatural together. This must be raising a colossal red flag with immigration officials. And reports from these unions keep pouring in -- man dumps American wife for real Moroccan wife then takes advantage of status. I know a fellow Peace Corps volunteer who wrote an article about the phenomenon.

Living here with a Moroccan husband makes me sensitive to this issue. If two people want to marry, they should be able to marry -- whether or not they conform to some random CO's definition of acceptable. (And similarly, when I got married Moroccan-style it really wasn't anyone's business if I was a virgin or not -- but we were both extensively questioned about this). Also, people tend to assume (especially expats and other Moroccan men) that he is in it for the visa. This is totally frustrating and humilating for both of us, but is just one of many things that we have had to navigate and accept in this process.

I think whoever said the thing about validating the relationship has a point. An internet love affair is pretty hard to believe, but it seems to constitute the majority of the marriages I see here. This is a new social movement -- Western women finding love and companionship from very romantic marraige and kid-ready virile Moroccan men and those men finding a way up and out of a country that has extremely high unemployment and low prospects. This may not be the reasoning initially, but I think it is the "latent function" of these unions. Not all, of course -- but enough to put Casa on guard. Like mentioned before -- what they are doing is legal -- and if evidence of marriage fraud is happening, I guess this is their way of culling.

Deeshla

One thing that has stumped me since Mohammed's interview, and I've read it many times here from other couples... (and I realize we are going through Egypt and not Morocco but it kind of applies) is this:

Mohammed took more evidence with him to the interview. One of which was a handwritten letter from an Irish woman we spent a lot of time with in Alexandria stating she had witnessed us together many times, we stayed in her home, watched her son, went out together, etc. and that she had absolutely no doubts in the validity of our relationship. Mohammed tried to present this and the Consular Office refused to see it. She refused to see anything at all but a few additional pictures.

Can anyone offer a reason why ANY evidence is refused? That's what is truly frustrating. You go prepared and it's disregarded. The only reason I can think of is that the Consular Office said to him, "I believe you love her," but that just seems too darn easy...

I got interviewed for my husbands CR1. I took a letter to the Interview from my parents.
it was really touching. It had to contain all of my parents details - name addres phone fax...etc..
the adjudicating officer accepted the proof.

I just want to wish you the best of luck. Quite a few things have changed since my husband (then fiance) had his interview in 5/05. I can only suggest, like everyone else, to be sure he presents all the information he has proving your ongoing relationship. My husband went into his interview like everyone else, full of confidence knowing our love was true and he would receive his visa. Every one is told to be prepared and I am sure all are. Why he received his visa and others have not, I have no idea. I guess we were lucky. We have a large age difference but then his parents did too, his mother was 13 years older than his father. They never questioned him about our age difference. He did present all our evidence of our two years of knowing each other but I had only been to Morocco once. I can only wish everyone good luck and try not to worry. Make sure your husband/fiance knows everything about you. My husband knew more about me than I did and was able to answer each question without hesitation. It may seem funny but go over everything as often as you can before the interview quick a few times, it might help. Give him all your support because he has so much weight on his shoulders when he enters the consulate and I pray it all goes well. I would think just his showing them your love and relationship will be better than showing them he is different.

Doreen

It is so great to hear a happy ending Doreen, you made my morning. Thank you so much for this reply. I do know and understand the reasonings for all the changes in the last year or so. I saw for myself the evidence of cons at work and my fiance and I have discussed a few such cases that we know honestly. Really, I feel badly for those boys who are going through this as a way out and not for love. The sad reality of actual life in america as compared to the myths of movies will sink in and they will miss what they left. There are some things in life, not even money can buy. Such as the closeness of family and friends who work and share together as in morocco. And say goodbye to all that free time sitting around watching soccer in the cafes boys.
My fiance has no misconceptions of life in america. He knows and has seen first hand how even with what most consider to be a "good" job here with salary, it is a neverending struggle for me. He says to me all the time "Ahbiba, please try to make your ex sign for the babies to come here and live with us. I can care for all my family here, I hate to see you working this hardly." We didn't start chatting with the intent of falling in love, and when we did, our first choice of where to live, was not the US.
He knows everything about me, from the time I wake, the fact that I don't do breakfast other than coffee (that was a huge battle during my stay there, he really protested my not eating the first meal), he knows the childrens schedules, what days they do soccer, equestrian lessons, guitar, what weekends they are gone to their dads, he knows all my quirks and buttons and uses them too, my family history and relationship with them... You know, I had 2 deaths in my family last year, my uncle and my grandma, he was there with me on the phone through my tears during both of those times and not just for me, he called my father too both times daily for week just to be sure he was ok... His uncle and grandmother were calling me to be sure I was ok. I was hurt last year and pain meds make me horribly sick and loopy so I had to take half doses and even that was still bad on my system. I was down for 4 days and talking out of my mind, he called me every 4 hours to be sure I ate something, took those meds, then sang goofy american love songs to me until I fell asleep. He even called my doctor daily to update her on how I was doing at home. Even now, he calls me in the middle of the day "Have you remembered to eat hayati?" "No baby I've been busy with appointments and not found time for that yet." "Then stop those appointments and eat something quickly hobi... why why why you don't care for my life?" I swear the whole time I was in morocco it was a constant bombardment of food constantly... those people I love em for sure but for goodness sake I thought they were trying to kill me with food. For a gal who is used to having coffee for breakfast, a banana, some trail mix and dr pepper on the road during the day between appointments, and a quick throw together or order in dinner at night all that constant cooked meals 4 times a day and in between goodies is a lot to handle. And they were always fussing that I didn't eat well and if I didn't eat to their satisfaction they cooked twice as many things the next meal thinking sooner or later they would find something I liked despite my assurances that everything they made was delicious.
Anyhow, I do understand fraud happens frequently there, but seriously, all they have to do, is look at our phone records, our pictures (which btw we were in no way "uncomfortable" together, his friends joked that our ceremony video would have to be rated 18 and over for all the kissing, he could not keep his hands off of me), our chats and emails, letters from family and friends... We are in love ... This seperation has made us both just sick... literally sick. The night before I left, his family had a huge party, everyone waiting for our taxi to casa to arrive, everyone wanting to steal a few last moments with me... the whole night my sweetie was trying so hard to smile instead of cry until finally, 4 hours before time to go, he made apologies to everyone there, took me to our room, locked us in, grabbed me and just cried himself sick. He said "I'm sorry hobi, but this is the last of my time with you for I don't know how long, and I can't share it with anyone."
Anyhow, sorry to ramble, but sometimes on here, I hear and read so much focus about the infamous "fraud in morocco" that it seems fitting to share some of the real emotion, sharing, caring and heartbreak, of true love. It is great to know there are lovers out there living the happy ever after part like you.

Jean,

This is mere speculation, but if the CO is convinced the relationship is fraud because of a large age difference or other red flags, I don't think any evidence is going to sway them. He realizes that the man (the one committing fraud in their opinion, with the American woman being victim) is going to go through whatever motions are necessary to make the relationship seem real - not only for the consulate but for the woman they are using.

The women who have been used for green cards that I know (and if any are reading they can jump in) could tell you that their fiances/husbands went through all the motions and were very believable when doing so. Their evidence would have been the same as everyone elses, and in some cases may have seemed stronger (more visits, spent time living together). Yet, their marriages were not real for the men involved but only a means of entering the US. So, the weeding out has to be based on factors other than "evidence" and becomes subjective.

I really don't see how evidence (as we think in terms of letters, pictures, affidavits of how the couples seem together) would make a difference in this type of fraud case. Everyone is going to have it. The guy isn't going to not write to her, not call her, not taking pictures of himself looking all lovey-dovey towards her, or act untowards with the USC because he is convincing her as well.


Rebecca

Trying to avoid an unneeded meltdown here... evidence is refused when they believe a relationship is a FRAUD?

Quite the catch-22, isn't it?

Hasn't this basically been the case with Casa? In most of the cases they have returned to the USCIS, they have not looked at or only skimmed the evidence. The decision to return petitions seems subjective based on everything we have seen here, with little relevance to evidence brought in by the beneficiary.

As Chiquita has said, the CO didn't even look at their evidence, and I know this to be true in other cases. Our evidence was not looked at but we were approved.

From everything I have heard hear, in most (not all) cases, the COs in Casa seem to care very little about the evidence either way. They do occasionally look through a few things the benificiary brought it, but I think it is rare that they actually examine it, and it seems not looking at anything is quite common too.

Rebecca

evidence meaning evidence not included in the original petition.

Ok thanks. I guess I was just asking in general. I do agree that Casa has their own way of doing things which isn't exactly in line with what they are supposed to be doing. Unfortunately all any of us can do is just merely speculate no matter which embassy we're going through and that is what makes all this so stressful. My prayers are with everyone.

Good bye. I think we have an enough pool of advisors. I doubt this site has a few people with a monopoly of knowledge.