I made the mistake of reading the post from back in March about Islam.

I think we should make it a standard question in police investigations all over the world. Since the religion of the person is so dayum important lets start with this:

"Mr. Doe, what is your Religion"

Lets start a tally. Since all we see is what the "Islam" people are doing, lets see the facts about all the other religions that we are not seeing in the news.

You know all these murders where I am in Phoenix that I hear about on TV everynight. It should go:

"A christian has killed another christian on 59th ave and Main"
" A Babtist has murder a family of 5 Mormons."

Lets at least make it fair!!

Sorry had to vent.

I have said the same thing Joyeann. It is the person that is bad, not the religion.

Meriem

Yep...I agree with you both.

Judging a book by it's "cover" is what we Americans are infamous for...

Far as I am concerned, who one chooses to worship should be their own thing, a personal thing if you will, and not have ANY role in how anyone is viewed or perceived.
It's a shame that we are judged by such...

For the record, I was raised as a Catholic, converted formerly to Judiasm when I married my 2nd husband-then, later in life I became a Buddhist, and also embrace Hinduism...they all seem to work for me.
In hindsight-with knowing what I know about each form of belief system-they are all not so different with the exception of specific and small nuances between them.

Now, as such-imagine each connotation and prejudice that each one of those religeons conveys...I found that during each period of my life, I was viewed and treated differently from those who knew my beliefs.

I have learned by experience, to tell very few people whom I pray to anymore, as I don't want or need judgement in my life at this stage.

Finally though, at the end of the day-we are ALL human beings.

Rose

I couldn't agree more joyann. There is a huge misconception (thanks to the media most of all) that equates Islam with terrorism. For those that understand Islam, these are two utterly contradictory principles. You cannot be involved in terrorism and be a good muslim. Period.

Yes I am tired of the bigotry against muslims. People automatically assume I am of Arabic descent. I have heard too many times "Well if the muslim people don't like this terrorism thing, why don't they DO something about it?" LIKE WHAT??? I speak out AGAINST it every chance I get. I try to inform people as I can.

Well, I don't want to get all up on my soapbox. I'll just leave it with I agree 100%.

I will admit freely that I know very very little about Islam but I do agree that there are two "faces" shall we call them, of the Islam religion, one from the genuine follower of the Koran and one from the fanatic.

What I do not understand, and I know that we are not on the subject of terrorism, is how the suicide bombers can say that they are good muslims!!! and believe it. Even I know from talking about the religion with muslims I used to do business with in my last business, is that Islam is a peaceful and respectful reigion and one that looks after the poorer in their society.

This is one reason I fear is the cause of the bigotry and I think a lot of the problem stems from some of the higher archy who are definitely not swift to condemn.

I for one believe that one worships the way one sees fit and as long as no one trys to force their religion on me that is fine and that wherever you may be, may your God go with you

AMEN & ALHAMDOULILLAH!!! AGREED....
noura

[/quote]



What I do not understand, and I know that we are not on the subject of terrorism, is how the suicide bombers can say that they are good muslims!!! and believe it. Even I know from talking about the religion with muslims I used to do business with in my last business, is that Islam is a peaceful and respectful reigion and one that looks after the poorer in their society.


[/quote]



The Same way People call themselves good Catholics and do all the things that are forbiden.

Islam is so different then it is portrade and Practice. violance is not condoned except in cases of Self Defense and defending your right to practice your religion. Women have more rights than are given my any other Religion or culture out there including the US. I believe if anyone really learned about True islam and Understood it, they would convert. The Media has protrade us as monsters. The Truth of the matter is that a person is not a muslim just because they claim to be. Another point is the media is Biased. You are not really getting the truth in there.

What a great topic! I couldn't agree with you more Joyann. I am so complete sick of all the comments I hear regarding Islam and why that is the reason it's taking so long for my fiance to get here because he is from a muslim country. And believe me, I've heard it all. Hello....Islam is NOT only in select countries. Seems all we here is about the fundmentalists and what they are doing, we never hear about how peaceful Islam is. And what about all the freaky Christian fanatics? What's up with them? Burns my butt that because there is so much ignorance in this country regarding Islam, it seems all of us with SO from muslims countries have to wait longer than others for their visas. The media jacks things up too....everything is so out of context. I love to vent once in a while too.....makes me feel so much better.

There is no hierarchy in Islam. Your relationship with God is personal and no Muslim should presume to be the voice for other Muslims, whether it be sheikh, cleric, imam or any other title. If they all came out today and condemned (or condoned) terrorism, they would only be speaking for themselves. There is a misconception that there are Islamic leaders that represent the voices of the people -- they do not.

Frankly, I don't understand why people feel the "good" Muslims need to condemn the acts of the "bad" Muslims. When crazy Christians boycott a soldier's funeral, blow up the Murrah Federal building or an abortion clinic, or commit genocide in Bosnia, there are no expectations on Christians to say "we are not like them". Why is it any different with Islam? Terrorism has nothing to do with me or my husband or our beliefs. Why should we be expected to defend or even explain our position? Do ordinary Christians feel they have to somehow pubicly denounce Falwell?

The problem isn't Muslims failing to denounce terrorism -- and for the sake of harmony, I will avoid going into what I think is behind the expectations that they should.

Rebecca

"The problem is not between the Arabs and the U.S. and it's not even the East versus the West... it is between religious extremism ... which exists in every religion.. and moderates... " Her highness Queen Rania of Jordan

It was HINDU extremists that killed ghandi... it is christian extremists that bomb abortion clinics... but the word terrorism is only used to describe any destructive events that occur from so-called Islamic groups (I say so called because they think they're muslims but they're not)...

the world these days is so trigger happy with the word terrorism that it's sickening... a couple of months ago there were drug smugglers crossing the Algerian Tunisian border... purely profit drug smugglers and they set off a bomb and blew up some customs agents... but the world was so quick to call it terrorism... if the same thing happend at the US-Mexican border it would not be called terrorism..

Sigh...

I am so very glad that I am not the only one that feels this way!! Everything on tv starts with

"Islamic terroists........"
"Muslim terroists........"

It is just sickening. The whole reason for it is that they need something to attach to 9/11 and pull the viewers in. Oh yea and everyone is so damn patriotic uh huh. Do you remember when 9/11 happened and you could barely find a car that didn't have some kind of american flag on it? Look now...where did all the flags go? 9/11 has been forgoten and the only thing that has stayed with Americans are the words, Islam and Muslim. If you were to go out on the street and ask someone what country these men came from, they wouldn't know. All they would know is they were from an Islamic country. I am truly tired of stupid people.

I brought the holy book in to work so that I can read it on breaks and lunches and a supervisor told me that it gives her "goose bumps". I told her that I was sorry for her ignorance and maybe she should do more than watch CNN. Personally i just wanted to slap the sh$$ out of her, but hey, i need the job.

Ok, well I am done venting ~ for now. Thanks for your support!!

What a great topic! I hope this doesn't start arguments....coz that's not my intent.

Someone asked about the suicide bombers and how they can claim to be good muslims...Oddly enough, my husband and I discussed that just the other night. I should let you know first that my husband and I do not think that suicide bombing is ok....
BUT..the way he said it to me was... "their thinking is similar to the romeo and juliet story" "they love what they belive in so much that they would rather die than to see it be harmed or bashed etc etc..." IF they are doing it for this reason and with an honest heart (hard to say being that americans don't see how a suicide bomber could have an honest heart..but it can happen) then they are not bad muslims. It's purely based on the intent in their hearts. This is what my husband (a muslim) told me and, although difficult to understand, I can see what he means and I have a different feeling toward them than I did before...

On the topic of stupidity toward Islam...People make me so mad sometimes.. A lady actually came up to my husband at work and asked him his religion.. he told her he is muslim and YOU KNOW WHAT SHE SAID TO HIM??!!!?? She actually said "you came to America to blow us up"!!! can you belive that!!! THEN she started trying to tell him what the quran says and means... who the heck does she think she is??? My co-workers asked me if I would have to wear the hijab (or as they so eliquently put it "head thing") since my husband was muslim.. I had quite a time explaining to them that in jordan they are free to wear what they want ..I would go into the whole thing but it would take 30 pages to write it all down.. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about anyway .....

I'm so glad you opened this topic it feels good to vent about stupidity once-in-a-while

amal

You know, I just adore your posts. When I'm not psycho over this whole process, I have this weird little view. Those of who are cherishing our muslim men (and those of us who have also embraced Islam) have a very special thing to share with our fellow cnn-addicted fellow countrymen. We can share the gift of experienced information with them about the reality outside of cable tv news.

I will also share I recently lost my job. Part of it was due to the fact that my stress level was affecting my health, but I also strongly feel that they didn't feel comfortable with me being there. I worked with construction people here in the almost-south. (I had just had a recent review and they were quite pleased with my work quality and I was given a raise...then wham suddenly fired because I had to leave sick one afternoon.) We are talking flag waving, red white and blue bleeding southern fried people. I had to listen to "allah" and "sand ni**er" jokes until I wanted to scream. (side note: Although we are to be "culturally-sensitive and respectful" in this country, it is quite fashionable and widely acceptable to insult those from the ME/NA.) I made the mistake of being honest about my personal life. Well, perhaps it wasn't a mistake. I didn't belong there. I won't be sharing my personal life quite so freely next time until I feel comfortable that it will not cost me my paycheck. Sad, isn't it?

Hi Amal! Good point about the suicide bombers!!

Imagine if the US were being invaded and we were all told that we must do this and do that etc with bombs raining down and foreign troops with guns walking through the street..... I can see a bunch of AMERICAN fanatics doing the same thing. Why shouldn't another country's people protest that we are there? There are enough fanatics in the US that would do the same thing!!

ahh just_waiting I am sorry to hear that! I don't know whether to be mad at these people or to pity them as I usually do. One day we will look back and see this whole journey from a different perspective ~ for our loved one will be sitting beside us!! I know what you mean about stress!! It is like being on a constant roller coaster!

I am tired of stupid people. I have decided that if anyone says anything to me.. well from now on I am going to speak MY MIND.

Yep. I've done a lot of soul-searching as the result of everything associated with this journey and have come to one conclusion...

If you can't be true to yourself, you can't be true anything.

(And yes, I am also sick of people.)

Wow there is a lot of people here facing work discrimination here. Sounds like a lawsuite to me. Now I am not a person to go around filling Lawsuits, But it is to the point that you guys are being harrassed at work and losing your jobs over your freedom of religion.

I am lucky enough to live in an Area where there is a large population of Muslims and people are more exposed to Muslims. Although you will here a lot of coments, it's not comments like the above. It is usually questions about things they don't understand. I think we need to show people that we are not going to sit buy and be Mentally and emotionally raped by there ignorant, Dumb, Sh*t for Brain A$$e$. Sorry but when I here coments like that it ticks me off.

I know that being someone who has a Hijab on I get stared at when I Go places outside my community and I am sure coments are being made.

Look at any newspaper today, and you're almost sure to find at least one article with the words "bomb", "terror", and "Muslim" all in the same headline. I think unless a conscious effort is made by the reader to separate these terms, it is inevitable that people begin to associate.

Sublminal messaging at work....

Yes and basically the Arab or people from the ME/NA are being placed into the position that African Americans wrongfully were decades ago... AND NOW ITS PERFECTLY OK TO DO THIS. This is what sickens me beyond compare. Sorry I am not in such great spirits these days and bigotry, blindness, disregard for human-ness just makes me ashamed of what this country is becoming. Sorry if that stepped on some toes. Remember this is just my opinion based on the things happening around me. I want to feel proud to be American, but as they say "pride comes before the fall." I will be happy being dutifully human instead and just keep praying like crazy I can just be with the one I chose to spend my life with.

You know, I am just fed up with all the idiots that are out there. I figure that if they are so ignorant I am not going to belittle myself by even being friendly. If they want to say something stupid, well then I hope they understand they are going to get a stupid reply. So! From now on, they can all just pi$$ off.

I personally don't care anymore what anyone says. It just simply blows my mind that people are so stupid. But then again.. the ones that make these comments have never been out of their state much less the country. I guess with that you would expect some narrow mindedness. Yep, it is pity that I feel. Must suck to be so stupid.


You know, I am just fed up with all the idiots that are out there. I figure that if they are so ignorant I am not going to belittle myself by even being friendly. If they want to say something stupid, well then I hope they understand they are going to get a stupid reply. So! From now on, they can all just pi$$ off.

I personally don't care anymore what anyone says. It just simply blows my mind that people are so stupid. But then again.. the ones that make these comments have never been out of their state much less the country. I guess with that you would expect some narrow mindedness. Yep, it is pity that I feel. Must suck to be so stupid.

thats right!

Think of what they're missing out on in this world.

I wanted to share something I'm not too proud of...Before I met my husband, I was one of those stupid people.. Not to the extremes that most others are..but I was afraid to get to know him and I was also afraid to go visit him coz I didn't want to be "blown-up".. Yeah he's from Jordan and they are allies of the USA but at the time I didn't know it. All I knew was what I saw on tv and heard from the papers and co-workers. It took a long time to get close to him and to actually believe him...BUT the difference between me and the other "stupids" out there is that I did open my mind to a new belief of a culture and a new thought to the way all GOOD ppl of Islam really are.

The reason I am admitting this is because ... to address the "stupids" I have to remember myself when I was one of them and how I felt. I try to address their stupidity as my husband addressed mine....I try to explain what I can in the best way possible and pray to God that some of it soaks into their heads. It's so hard though coz man-o-man do I get mad. Especially when they say stuff like.."how can you be married to a man who doesn't worship the same god as you".... it's like..uhh hey...stupid..it's the same god..just different name...HELLOOOOO...

I have also said many times that if the media is going to say "muslim group did such and so" then they should say "christian group did this and that" "mormons did this" etc etc etc... they shouldn't single out one religion... they are definitely discriminating and (correct me if i'm wrong) but isn't this country supposed to be free from discrimination???

I have decided that I'm still proud of America BUT am not proud of America today...I'm proud of what America is supposed to be and the dreams we had when this country was built... I don't tell people up front that I'm American when I meet them ... but in my heart I hope this country gets back on track and becomes what it is supposed to be. I know, I know , it will never happen but a girl has to have dreams, right??

amal

DITTO!!!!

[quote name='just_waiting' post='252497' date='Jun 15 2006, 11:20 AM']
[quote name='joyeann' post='252396' date='Jun 15 2006, 10:29 AM']
I am so very glad that I am not the only one that feels this way!! Everything on tv starts with

"Islamic terroists........"
"Muslim terroists........"

It is just sickening. The whole reason for it is that they need something to attach to 9/11 and pull the viewers in. Oh yea and everyone is so damn patriotic uh huh. Do you remember when 9/11 happened and you could barely find a car that didn't have some kind of american flag on it? Look now...where did all the flags go? 9/11 has been forgoten and the only thing that has stayed with Americans are the words, Islam and Muslim. If you were to go out on the street and ask someone what country these men came from, they wouldn't know. All they would know is they were from an Islamic country. I am truly tired of stupid people.

I brought the holy book in to work so that I can read it on breaks and lunches and a supervisor told me that it gives her "goose bumps". I told her that I was sorry for her ignorance and maybe she should do more than watch CNN. Personally i just wanted to slap the sh$$ out of her, but hey, i need the job.

Ok, well I am done venting ~ for now. Thanks for your support!!
[/quote]



I think Fox News is the idiots choice

amal I think we have all been in the situation that we don't understand something. But you went the next step and put away your fears. Most would not even venture to do that!!

I truly believe the difference is that we chose to learn from it, we delve into the truth. Most of the people that I know and call "stupid" is because they choose not to want to learn anything different. Their truth is what they see on TV ~ these are the things that they turn around and pass on.

Those of us that have married the "foreigner" have taken the truths to heart. I hardly doubt that a lot of these people would be able to see past the lies and their own prejudices to find the love that we have. I consider us so very lucky that we are the one that have gone "outside the box" and found true love. It is usually a hurdle to overcome the cultural and the religious differences, but well worth it!

Some people don't know better, some are simply narrow minded, and some are stupid. Why do I always come across the stupid ones?

I think for us in the ME forum we're a little different... before I knew Hicham I knew nothing about Arabs or Muslims or Islam and I have learned a lot. Most people don't know many others from the Middle East so they don't really have any grasp on the reality of it all. We are lucky to have our fiances/husbands from that part of the world because our minds are much more open to what is REALLY going in the world. Good for us. I don't like that people make judgements when they really have no experience with what they are judging and to be honest I never really knew anything about the Middle East... besides what I learned in the news but thankfully I know much more and feel like knowing Hicham has helped me learn a lot. (Even though he is not really from the Middle East). It's frustrating yes but hard for people to really know what's going on when all they have is the media.

I had one of those "doh" moments too. All those months I lived in Egypt, sitting and watching the news with Mohammed's family, I saw that the media over there puts their own slant on the "truth" as well. Well "truth" is always a dicey thing, isn't it? Their media (and keep in mind there were channels coming in from Saudia and other ME countries) cast a very unflattering light on Europe and the USA. Sometimes it left me squirming. It was ugly. Minds are manipulated everywhere it seems, and those not strong enough to question "facts" just follow blindly along.

I am so very thankful that I was invloved with many different cultures and religions going up and I was once dating a man that was from India and here on a student visa. I really loved him but his family was unaccepting of a lady that was not muslim. I was verysad that his family was like ths and even more disappointed that he chose to follow with his family. Well that is the past.

Hasan told me that he didn't care if I converted that he loved me for who I am and that since we believe in the same God that is what is most important. I am thankful that I can not have children anymore because that would have been the only other issue that might of come up.

I am very pleased that those of us that are not so narrow minded have a better understanding of life. My belief is that we where all brought together for a reason and that is to do God's will and that we must have a speical purpose in our life. I am so thankful because I feel that being with ME men means that we get a pure love. I am not really sure how to explain it but I am sure that you feel exactly what I am speaking of. Many men use the word love with no meaning, ME men well let me speak of the two that I have been in love with, they show a love that is so deep and pure with so much meaning and feeling. I would never trade the love I have for anything in the world.

People judge and they will also be judged butI know in my heart that ignorence is so sad. The unknown to people is so disconserting to them and others that is why they speak of what is not known to them. I am greatful that I have some friends that are very intelligent and are open minded. I have learned that no matter what I can and will never make everyone happy so I am only goin gto try and love the one's I love all I can.

May all the world find love and compassion or atleast a better understanding.

well said and beautiful a1angied
noura

Yes and basically the Arab or people from the ME/NA are being placed into the position that African Americans wrongfully were decades ago... AND NOW ITS PERFECTLY OK TO DO THIS. This is what sickens me beyond compare. Sorry I am not in such great spirits these days and bigotry, blindness, disregard for human-ness just makes me ashamed of what this country is becoming. Sorry if that stepped on some toes. Remember this is just my opinion based on the things happening around me. I want to feel proud to be American, but as they say "pride comes before the fall." I will be happy being dutifully human instead and just keep praying like crazy I can just be with the one I chose to spend my life with.
[/quote]


I feel the same way. I am so ashamed of how my husband has been treated. America is supposed to be the best country in the worl and I believe it still is. However, there are so many "bad apples" not only in our population but in our government employ as well.

I was venting some time back and called some of these people bigots and boy did I get in trouble for that!
( I think it was regarding goldenheart and her situation.)

Actuall I don't care because at that point I had had it with the injustice I see going on regarding those who are trying to immigrate to the states legally!!! (I don't want to go there again...I am still upset about that situation.)

I think most Americans are now afraid of Muslims and that is a shame because of a few "bad apples" who are also ruining it for the rest Muslim population.

I agree, pray pray pray. It is all I can do at this point for us now.

Hugs

chi

I have two different perspectives - one on a broad scale in terms of U.S foreign policy, FOX news type of propaganda, etc. but a totally different perspective on a personal level.

My husband has been very warmly received into this country by individual people. I think people are friendlier to him than they might be to a fellow American, and many go out of their way to show him kindness. People have sincere questions (if sometimes silly) about where he is from, his religion and what his life was like back home. They take time to understand his English as well as to make themselves understood.

I don't feel he has faced any blatant discrimination. I was worried when his work card arrived because his name is SOOOO Arab and quite difficult and long, and thought his name alone might put off potential employers. He had a full time job offer two days after getting the card, and has had two more since (less than two weeks). Many people have reached out to him.

I think it is easy to broadly brush our country as bad based on the Iraq war, immigration policy, etc., but I think Americans as individuals can be some of the most generous, warm hearted people. Look at the outpouring of personal donations after the tsunami. When people are in need, Americans tend to forget color and religion. I used to devote a lot of time to volunteering with refugees (unfortunately very few are entering the U.S. these days) and the generosity in time and money people were willing to give to help these non-English speaking "brown" people is beyond description.

Sometimes it just takes opportunity to open people's minds (as was the case with Amal ). However bad US policy is, especially since 9/11, I think most American people as individuals are pretty darn good.

Rebecca

rebecca,
I do agree with you on the basis that America "as a whole" is good. The only problem is that the "bad-apples" are making the statements for the rest of the country. My husband hasn't had many issues with discrimination other than what I talked about before..also he has not had much luck in finding a good paying job due to his nationality. I believe it was the movie "men in black" that said it the best.. "people individually are very intelligent but put them all together and they become stupid" (not exactly as it quotes but i'm sure you get the point).. well the same goes for this situation.. I'm still very disappointed in the stupidity and un-willingness of ppl to open their minds and see that ppl are ppl no matter where they're from. It's definitely a subject that can be seen on 2 levels. I'm glad you brought that up.

amal

The eternal optimist, I also believe that most people in America (or anywhere else for that fact) are intrinsically good. I remember when Hicham and I were dealing with difficulties with my family when I told them we were intending to marry. I had told Hicham then that I believed we found each other for a purpose...that both of us came together to spread tolerance among our families, friends, and people we come into contact with. It has been a rocky journey at times. However, we have seen some people becoming accepting and understanding whom we never thought would.

Twila

I hope that Hasan will not face many difficulties with people when he is able to join me here in the US. My prayers are that none of our men or women that come from any country are discriminated against. If we all could be judged by our own actions then we would be a great society. Since we live in todays times it is not always that way, but somehow everything happens for a reason and a greater purpose. We can only live our lives and be as happy as we can and not worry what others think or say about our relationships. Just know that happiness is what we are all here for with our loved one's. I have met so many great people through VJ that have offered so much love and support to help me know how to get what I am ultimatley striving for and that is to marry and live with my husband here in the United States. I am very greatful that God places people in our lives, the good, the bad and the ugly but it is all for a purpose. Helps us to keep growing so we don't get stagnet. It is all a learning and growing process and it touches many areas in our lives. May all have amny blessings.

I think every country has it's positives and it's negatives. How much disrimination and racisim you are going to experience depends on where in the country you live in. You know what discrimation againg Arabs and muslims are not just in this country but also in the Arabic Countries where the Majority of people Muslim. We need to look at each person as an indivisual. I know that when I graduated College and was looking for a JOB,( I have the Hijab on) I was worried if I would find a Job. Escpecially since my field is in business. I had to be a little pushier then I would with it, but I had no problem finding work.

There are plenty of bad apples, but there are also plenty of good people.