Hi Everyone,


My husband is now eligible to file for citizenship so we are gathering documents and completing application, etc. One of the question on the N-400 is to select the race of the person filing for citizenship. The options are: White, Black/African American, Native American, or Native hawaiian.
My husband is Egyptian so which option do I choose? I know it shouldn't be difficult but when dealing with immigration i want to be sure. I have read job applications and it has said that if the person is of Middle Eastern descent, etc then choose white as race. This really has me wracking my brains, so tell me what race are Egyptians considered to be here in the US if there is no option for Middle Eastern, Egyptian or Other.


Angel

Everything I ever heard says you must say they are white. Only if there is an "other" option or "middle eastern" can you put those. Thats what I know, but maybe someone who has gone through this can verify it.

I've questioned that myself when we filled out govmnt paper work or other papers for license...ect... Adam is from EGYPT and far from white... i didnt like that there was no other option ... but we did as we were told!

White. ME, Egyptian, etc are not actually races. I think the only reason people get confused is because although they are pretty clearly caucasian by definition, our mental and cultural stereotype involves northern-Europeans only.

I cannot answer your question and my husband is not MENA, but I wanted to share our experience. When we went for bio-metrics there was a "racial identification" type question.

White, including Hispanic/Latino
Black
Asian
etc.

My husband is from the Caribbean. He is Latino, but far from white. Most people think he is African-American -- so we choose Black.

I was surprised about how limited the choices were -- for a form that is to cover international immigrants.

To OP, you are probably thinking the same thing. Good Luck!!

Most Egyptians would be considered "White/Caucasian" because the definition includes not only people of European descent but also "people of the Middle East and North Africa" of which Egypt is a part. However Nubians are obviously not "white". My ex (a Nubian) was told about 10 years ago that he could not check the box "African American/Black" by some woman in the Human Resource office of a government agency in Chicago because he was born in Egypt which is a part of North Africa.

When he moved to the West Coast after we got married and he was applying for a job with the city I told him to put "African/American/Black" and I asked a friend of mine who is a lawyer for the Federal Government (and has a black father and a white mother) if it was legal for them to tell him he couldn't put "Black" back in Chicago. She asked me "has a police officer ever mistaken him for white at 2:00am?" I laughed and told her NO! She then told me that the true "test" for race, if there is such a thing, is how OTHERS perceive you. If people see you as black you ARE black. And since he looked a lot like Colin Powell that is exactly what people saw him as - BLACK. So he put it on the application for the job with the City and he got the job. And they were happy because that helped them fill their "quota" for blacks in that dept. So it all turned out well enough.

Bottom line from the lawyer's advice was that NO ONE can dispute what you put on a form. The lady in Chicago was totally out of line to tell him that he could NOT put black. While the majority of Egyptians are not Nubians (more live in Sudan than Egypt) and do not appear to be "of the black races of Africa" I think if you look black to strangers you ought to put it down. I my experience most Egyptians look more like latinos than blacks.

However the definition of Caucasian does include "the people of the Middle East and North Africa", so that's why most Egyptians would be marking the box "white/caucasian", unless they are Nubians...

Hope this helps....

Thanks Karamella! It does help and you are absolutely right....no one can dispute what you put on a form. No matter what others perceive you as...its ultimately up to you to decide what race category you fall under. If you are Egyptian one could debate you are from Africa...hence African. A friend of mine from Morocco always marks this off on applications when he applies for jobs. His prerogative of course.

The designations are political, nothing more. The State Department has agreements with several countries that their immigrants will be considered to be "White", despite their true ethnic background. It has to do with the "privilege" and "desirability" of being "White" and a colonial mindset. Egyptians, in particular, Middle Easterners North Africans as a group are not Caucasians; many of us would not be perceved as White in the US at all. As a person of ME origin, I don't consider myself to be White, would never check that from a list, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. Choose what you like. It's not illegal.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your inputs and keep them coming. I know that some people have mistaken my husband as mexican because of his features even his boss thought he was from italy because of his curly thick black hair. My husband says I could put list him as black because he is from Africa, but I am leaning toward putting his race as white.

A funny story that some here have heard. When we went to get our marriage license they lady asked where my husband was from. He says "Egypt" so she picked up her book and said "oh, then you are white." Those of you that have seen my husband know he's VERY dark. I kinda giggled and ask her how sh could put white since he's far from white. He's Nubian so she did find that then put a N in the box. Kinda makes you wonder why middle easten isn't an option.

Yah that makes sense ... alot of things are about Politics. I didnt know that he didnt have to put White... So, from now on is it a good idea to keep checking white for Adam bcz hes done so at least 5 times? Or is it Ok to check off as he wishes... I dont feel like he should be made to take on White identity if he doesnt want to.

isn't Egypt in Africa? I'm confused.

yah but the ones from Egypt wouldnt check off African American...

When we got our license, the clerk looked at my husband's passport and very confidently put his race down as "Arabic." I guess it wasn't multiple choice. FWIW, he's Amazigh, not Arab. Most forms he's filled out list North African under the "white" category, so he usually checks that. He has lighter skin than I do, at least in the winter, but he's not Caucasian.

http://www.indiana.edu/~affirm/race.shtml

Above is a link to the legal definition of racial groups. Being Black/African American does not have anything to do with simply being born in Africa. There are plenty of White people aka: Caucasians, living in South Africa for hundreds of years but they are not "black". It's about skin color, type of hair, facial features, etc. "Negroid" features to use an old fashioned term. The majority of people in Egypt do not fit into this category, regardless of the geographical locations of Egypt.

On the other hand a person with "negroid" (dark brown) skin, "negroid" facial features and hair, born in London would not be Caucasian simply because they were born in Europe.

The 20th Century terms for categorizing race are: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid, and included in the group "Cacasoid" are people of Europe, Central Asia, South Asia, Middle East, and North and Northeast Africa.

Race has nothing to do with where you are born or what passport you carry. Race predates the artifical boundaries created by governments and the naming of geographic regions.

Nubians are an ancient group of people still very genetically "intact" due to a high rate of intermarriage. If my ex had been born in Sudan where the largest concentration of people of Nubian descent still live he likely would have been told to put "black", but the Egyptian passport made it confusing to the ignorant govenment employee he was dealing with. When the Aswan Dam was built many Egyptian Nubians faced a "diaspora" when they lost their homes and ancestral lands to the resulting "lake" above the dam. It's a very sad story of the forced migration of an ancient people.

Karamella

Wow! That explanation is definitely from the 1950s and 60s. Arabs aren't even a homogeneous group; we are Arabs based primarily on language and cultural aspects, so how can all or even most of us be classified as White? We can't. "White Arabs" in the US were predominately Christian Arabs. Muslim Arabs have had a more mixed racial reception in the US. We have been the "Other" for a long time.

Race is, at best, a nebulous concept. I grew up in a time of overt racial discrimination when the paper bag test (was your skin darker than a paper bag?) was used to determine if you were "too back office appearance" to hire, and the "one drop (of Negro Blood) rule" forced many people to sever ties with their communities inorder to "pass" for white and have opportunities not afforded where they were known as Black or Colored. There were ( and still are) places in the US where signs saying "No Indians or Dogs allowed" are openly displayed. Your explanation brought back memories of those times and places.

Being African American or White is not simply about physical features. There are many, many people classified as Asian who have dark skin, curly hair, so-called "Negroid" features who are not African at all. Many Upper Egytians fit that description, but they certainly aren't AA, nor Caucasian. There are "Whites" who don't "look White" and "non-Whites" who do. In a diverse country, such as the US, saying that someone "Looks American" is synonymous to saying they "look white" to many who give that expression not one thought.

There is no "legal" definition of racial groups; the affirmative action guidelines are political, not legal, and the history of racism in the US and colonial states has much to do with it. I've lived long enough to witness these classifications morph multiple times due to social perceptions. Racial classifications from any century have been socio-political, not biological nor physiological. They are merely social constructs that change over time. I've always been Arab, but I haven't always been White because I'm not a Christian Arab. I became White as times and politics changed. I am also becoming non-White again. It's wishful thinking to believe that what you check on a form forms the perceptions of others toward you.

For more information on how social politics defines race, here are some books that discuss the issue:

Race and Arab Americans Before and After 9/11: From Invisible Citizens to Visible Subjects

Not Quite American?: The Shaping of Arab and Muslim Identity in the United States

How the Irish Became White

Working Toward Whiteness

Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race

Anti-Arab Racism in the USA: Where it Comes From and What it Means for Politics Today

When She Was White: The True Story of a Family Divided By Race

I hope that helps.

Adam doesnt have to check White if he doesnt want to.

negroid is not only old fashioned but totally not PC

I agree...Depends on who you ask.

Definitions of race are pretty biased. When you are a person of color, especially, you definitely are not left with a true and accurate choice.

Race isn't a biological thing anyway as there is more genetic diversity and variation-- even phenotypical-- within a race than between races. It's a social construct which is where we become confused, I believe, because society changes its mind about things. Prior to the banning of the import of slaves, race was fluid. If you could either pass for another race or if you had the right conenctions... you could switch races. Say your father was a rich plantation owner (like Thomas Jefferson) and your mother was a slave (Sally Hemmings)... not all of their children went on to be considered "African American". Some changed their race to white. This wasn't something uncommon. BUT! Once slave trade was banned we switched to an inherited race of the "least desirable" race to maintain populations. So in this same example, if trade had been banned when the children born, they would have been AA forever. This is part of that question-- why is it when a white person and a black person have a child, the child is identified as black and never white? because genetically, it's a 50-50 and should have equal chance... also think about it-- it applies to any white+other race, or other+other in a social heirarchy. Will a half asian half white child be seen as white more often than asian?

i quoted VW's above because that is a point of frustration for me. I've noticed that I've head this phrase in the negative from people overseas, my husband, people down here... and yes... it refers to then not being white usually. I remember my husband saying to me "so and so doesn't look American" or saying that about people he sees in our neighborhood (who are primarily hispanic). Now, I know he doesn't mean anything bad about it.. but... I remember snapping once at him "you can't say who is and who isn't American by their looks." I am not sure if he is getting that more now or not... maybe he is or maybe he isn't. Sometime, i hope to take him to AZ to visit my aunt and uncle. My Aunt's parents came from Beijing and she was born here, and she is 100% American. I know it always throws him for a loop to hear an American accent from someone who "doesn't look American" (which American to him, I've decided, is either white or black, he associates it with both but never asian or hispanic).

I do know that in speaking with him I've learned they basically know very little to nothing about our racial and ethnic histories, so I do try to educate him on that if it comes up. We watched a show on the end of slavery in the US and the transition to sharecropping. He got the agricultural restrictions on "40 acres and a mule" pretty quick as he knows farming pretty well... but some of the social experiences he was totally in the dark about. I think it helped him understand some of the situation today. he was pretty shocked (and I could tell he didn't really grasp) the civil rights era and prior struggles of people... and it was strange to him that groups considered "white" today and that seemed obviously "white" to him, such as Italians or Irish or Jewish peoples had problems with not being considered "white" at various times. Heck, no way any of us really grasp what it was really, really like for every group of people and every person over history... but if we can move towards understanding and empathy, maybe it can help us from repeating similar mistakes in the future.

i quoted VW's above because that is a point of frustration for me. I've noticed that I've head this phrase in the negative from people overseas, my husband, people down here... and yes... it refers to then not being white usually. I remember my husband saying to me "so and so doesn't look American" or saying that about people he sees in our neighborhood (who are primarily hispanic). Now, I know he doesn't mean anything bad about it.. but... I remember snapping once at him "you can't say who is and who isn't American by their looks."

That "American" is synonymous with "White" for so many is a big bone of contention for me, too, julianna, which is why I mentioned it. I'm incredulous every time I hear it, no matter how many times I hear it or who I hear it from. I've heard parents of half MENA, half American offspring refer proudly to their kids as "looking more American than Arab" without being able to grasp the incongruity of the comment. Even when I travel in MENA with a USA passport, it is more often than not that customs officers or other officials upon checking my ID remark how I either can't be American because I "look too Arab" or can't be Muslim and American, too. I'm not sure how this paradigm still manages to exist in the age of inter-racial and international mixing, mass communication and easy travel, but it does.