So I never got an answer back from VW on this one but I really want to know it because it applies to me personally as well. Would someone please answer my last question to her?

If the father is Muslim and the Mother is not then the children don't have to be raised Muslim according to the fathers faith because the children aren't born Muslims because of the father?

Here is what I know and this applies to MENA. The children are always supposed to follow the father faith. That doesn't mean it always happens.

For example, a Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman without her converting to Islam. Their children will be Muslim. However a Muslim woman cannot marry a Christian or Jewish man because her children would take on the father's faith.

I know of many cases, where this has not happened this way. I'm not sure if this is a rule set by society or religion. Islam is not the only relgion that follows this in MENA, Christians obide by it as well. In Jordan, if Christian man wants to marry a Muslim woman, he must convert or there is no marriage. However, a Christian girl would not have to convert to marry a Muslim man but she would most likely be disowned by her family or worse.

So any child I had with him is supposed to be raised in his faith.

It's more of Arab tradition than Islamic law. Same would be true if you were Catholic. Right? Catholics must raise their children catholic?

From what I understand, yes. I'm pretty sure Egypt operates the same way as Jordan when it comes to this. Maybe Mohammed can shed some more light on this issue for us.

However keep in mind, you may come to a different agreement with your spouse. It can happen but would most likely be frowned upon heavily by his family/friends.



True but the consequences aren't as severe as they are in MENA.

What are the consequences?

A person can be disowned by his family, honor killings, death threats to both parties. Most of this doesn't apply here in the US.

And depending on the country, the law often upholds the tradition giving the father legal custody and rights over the child.

Right, especially in the case of divorce. The father always gets custody unless he arranges otherwise.

So stepping back for a second. VW is saying its not religious but can be interpreted that way and JP and MBP are saying that its not so much religious as it is Arab Culture and tradition, and Islamic Law states the father always gets the kids in a divorce unless otherwise stipulated.

So would this stipulation be put into the marriage contract & if it wasn't at that time then can there be an addendum made to the marriage contract after the fact for foregien wives that didn't know these things before getting married?

I'm not sure if it would be in the marriage contract. I don't have one but as a part of our vows we agree to make our religion the foundation of our home and family.

I agree with VW's interpretation because there is little specific in the Quran to answer explicitly and that jurist have interreted it this way and it also is rooted in ARab culture and tradition.

What stipulations are you thinking of? raising the children as Muslim or what happens in the case of divorce? Have you looked at the family laws of Egypt? I doubt that anything could be put in a marriage contract and upheld in a court if it contradicts codified laws. Just because the law says fathers get custody does not mean fathers must have custody. Some fathers will make different custody arrangement with their ex because it is what is best for the children.

I have never heard of amending a marriage contract? Anyone?

I doubt any imam will ammend a marriage contract to say the children will be raised in another religion. also keep in mind that those laws are not upheld here in the usa.

ps: sorry for all lower case, i hate typing on my laptop!

Sorry, Olivia. I didn't get back to that thread to see that you had asked a question of me.

Passing religion, status, family names, nationality, etc. thru the father is part of Arab tradition, and like so many things Arab, have been inculcated into Islam as though divinely inspired. They are not. In reading the text, it becomes clear that how Allah perceives faith and how Muslims have adapted it to the status quo has not always remained faithful to Allah's Intent. No child is bound to any faith because it is their father's preference; converts to and from Islam on this board attest to that. One can give children guidance, but, in the end, that is all you can do. Allah guides who He may, as He may, and to accept that is a test for us all.

childern has to be raised as the father religion. so olivia in Egypt the kids raised as thier father religion and no muslim man will accept his kids to be any thing but muslim even he is not religous

i disagree i think its up to the children as they grow older to make their own decisions.my fiance is egyptian and it took a long time but we agreed if they wanted to convert to my religion.its their free will.you cant control children all their lives.you can only guide them.and pray for the best for them.if they choose to convert its on them.its ok.God still loves us no matter what.he will never disown his children.and i also think that if you want to marry a christian then its just love no matter what your religion is.i know about the honor thing.but we dont want to control our children .and the other muslims can do what they want .but we agreed our children will have free will.i know this may start a fight and i hope and pray it dont.i also know there is alot of people here who may agree with me.i hope i am not alone.i am just lucky to have a man who wants our life good.and fair to our children God bless you all and dont take this to heart and think i am a bad person.well we are not just want to be fair in our culture.i give and take just like him.and we compromise.have a wonderful day

Sorry but that s not true in some cases...i guess it depends on what u view as a muslim or how you view them...some people believe in freedom of choice rather than labeling

i respect you and your man but now we talking about islamic culture .it is not accpeted in islam that kids of muslim father be anything but muslim. and how the childern will choose thier own religion while they are young or you talking about let them grow with no religion till they can understand and choose?


i agree with free of choice but muslims would like thier kids to be muslims tooor it will bring alot of fights later . it is very clear that islamic culture and religion state that and i see ur SO is Egyptian ask him how he will feel if his own kids raised as anything other than islam and how his familly will feel

Without delving too much into the topic...I understand what you mean...just the part about where you said that even if they are muslim ad not religious they would stil feel that way? It really is philosophical because if you think that being born to a muslim or christian dad means the kid is that religion then you are looking at the matter from that standpoint and not hte standpoint of every human being born with the ability to choose their own beliefs, rather than your dad/moms muslim or christian, etc. so u are automatically one? Its just a difference of views, and also some people do not choose to be so religious ..i think its a matter of compromise and discussion between spouses. I do agree though that if one is a religious fanatic that will cause fights for suure and aboust the family...i do not agree that all families would be upset....its just not true---there are a lot of people who are more tolerant than that

when i said any muslim will be upset i meant it and again i repeat all the famillies too will be upset ,
in the end everyone is free to choose and decide what he want

If the children of Muslim men can only be Muslim, why does Allah say He guides who He may, as He pleases in matters of faith? Why does He say that He plans for us to believe differently as a test to us so we can learn to live together? Why are my kids born of a Christian father, but they are all Muslim, like me?

Male ego aside, it's God's Will what you believe, not any man's. And, in the end, only Allah knows who pleased Him as a Muslim, and who did not. And not all of them will call themselves Muslim, for He also says that there will be ahl al kitab who will enter jannah.

That's what I got to when I thought about it all. If Obama's Mama was an agnostic and his Dad was a Muslim then Obama is an example of that product. Like a case study for my question in application to my own situation and considerations.

this ayah mean that Allah guide who want to follow islam like poeple who convert to islam very day and also mean that Allah guide who may want to follow the rules of islam even the person muslim and not practise islam Allah who guide this person to follow islam but that doesnot mean to let the kids with no religion till the age they can choose
Allah know the best

Does it seem extreme to be looked down upon, disowned, families torn apart, etc. because of religion? I would think that religion would bring people together, regardless of choices among family members. Isn't that what religion teaches us; acceptance, tolerance, forgiveness, love? Something seems to be missing if there are such harsh consequences for choosing outside a religion.

that has been my intuitive sense as well but from what I'm learning here it's not just religion it's a whole culture of arab traditions.

I'm no expert on arab traditions/culture however, from what I have observed, many of these traditions and culture stem from Islam, no? My observation of the culture has been very very deeply rooted in their religious beliefs or their interpretation of their religion.

I have to admit it confuses me and disturbs me at times.

Allah guides who He may, even children. Some never accept the faith. I have 4 cousins with a Muslim father, and 3 refused to be Muslim. While He gives us free will, He also has decided that not all will believe the same. If that is what He has decided, who are we to say that all children of a Muslim father are Muslim? It is not up to us what path they follow. Mothers, as well as fathers, can instruct, but in the end, it is in God's hands.

There is a limit to tolerance, and that is where the laws of how to live begin. Some reject the laws and simply pick and choose what they follow, calling it their choice. But it is God who chooses, not us. It is not His Intent thatwe tear ourselves apart over religion. He says that our differences are a test, that we are divided into nations and tribes so that we can know each other, and not hate each other. It is hubris that misguides those who reject and fight over faith.




Jahilyya traditions and Islamic directives have mixed, and are often accepted as equal. They are not.

AMEN free will i swear religion should not be about fighting why is it that way.listen if you force your children to try to be as u and she or he does not agree.how you will stop that child to be your religion.you should not force it on them.let them choose.christians are wonderful people well some.and muslims are to.and there is nothing wrong with letting your child choose what he or she wants to be.i was not forced.and my family would never disown me if i was to convert.never ever.that is not a family.ok people am i right or not.our family is close.and if you disown how can you do that to flesh and blood.thats cruel.and its cruel to force a religion on someone.maybe i should leave this topic its not a good one for me i spent 2 years in this topic and now we compromised.we love both religions and we will not force it.we will guide and love our children the best we can.God does not just love one religion he loves many.not just one.please understand this.i am a christian and i love my faith.God is so good.even to my fiance who is muslim.God bless him to.and he blessed us with the choice with free will

Islam is the only Abrahamic faith that explicitly allows for interfaith marriage, and it also says we are to find ways to live together. When Muhammad and the early ummah were threatened by the Meccans, Allah sent them to Abysinnia and the Christian king took them in willingly and with no malice. It was the Jewish scholars (those who have received the Message before) that the Prophet was to consult re law. Allah says that even in battle, we are to find the good in a man. All too much of the themes of justice and unity in the Quran are overshadowed by those who are ignorant or have an Islam hating agenda. It is our commanded duty as Muslims to find the goodness and the things we have in common among our ahl al kitab brethren and learn to live together.

That' what I was trying to get him to agree with. However when I started speaking to new converts and not so new converts about it they had very different ideas about it.

An Old Convert told me that they work for a center where the teach Islam to children and they often see that mixed religion marriages didn't work out often times. Part of it is that the child being raised in Islam there was being taught that since their Mom wasn't a Muslim that she was an infidel. That infidels go to a place worse then hell where they hang them by their nipples and burn them alive and this continues over and over. I was in complete shock learning that they taught this to children!

Then I learned more about Islam reading news articles that report on it. From that I learned I won't be a convert because I would not morally support the marriage of more than one wife while I am married to him. I would not morally support that any Husband has the right to beat his Wife. And I certainly don't want my children thinking I'm an infidel going to be hung by me nipples and burnned alive over and over.

mohamed and trina
poeple asked about the Egyptian tradition and islamic tradition and i just answered and didnot mean to offend anyone .
if u dont like it it is up to you but thats the truth and it is up to you and your faince to decide what you want both to do. and i understand that u love your fiath as we do too but i just said that to avoid troubles in the future and since you and your man agreed on that so no problems for you as i said it is up to you and him

A man who believes he can still marry more than one, can still marry moer than one. If he blieves he is allowed to beat you, he can still beat you, and your children can still believe you will burn in hell. Not converting won't change any of that. But, if that's what you believe about Islam, you need to learn from someone other than who you have been talking with.

The disturbing and confusing part to me is the intolerance of people and where each person is on their journey. We are all on a path, and to scorn and disown a human being is so sad to me because they don't appear to have the same understanding I have (and who am I to say I am right and they are wrong) or am striving for. We can disagree with someone without disowning them or shunning them. Many times I have judged someone to find out later that I am experiencing the exact same thing that I judged them about. I've learned to be more of an observer than a judge.

I see more intolerance against what people consider 'sinners' when what they need most is love. 'The sinner is a future saint and the saint was a former sinner.'

I believe Islam is a beautiful religion. I'm sorry to say I don't see a lot of it's beauty through people's interpretation of it.

So what I am to assume learning from the converts/reverts isn't correct. Would you please clarify what part I was ill informed of?

The disturbing and confusing part to me is the intolerance of people and where each person is on their journey. We are all on a path, and to scorn and disown a human being is so sad to me because they don't appear to have the same understanding I have (and who am I to say I am right and they are wrong) or am striving for. We can disagree with someone without disowning them or shunning them. Many times I have judged someone to find out later that I am experiencing the exact same thing that I judged them about. I've learned to be more of an observer than a judge.

I see more intolerance against what people consider 'sinners' when what they need most is love. 'The sinner is a future saint and the saint was a former sinner.'

I believe Islam is a beautiful religion. I'm sorry to say I don't see a lot of it's beauty through people's interpretation of it.

You are a wise one. Most people fail to see that they do to others what they find offensive when it's done to them.


There is great and endless beauty in Islam, but Msulism, as the personification of the Message, as flawed and fall short. Allah acknowledges that we will often fail, but it is our duty to try and try. Islam is not about me or you, it's about all of us, no matter what label we use.

It's only left up to be interpreted by man but I am in agreement with you.

So what I am to assume learning from the converts/reverts isn't correct. Would you please clarify what part I was ill informed of?

It's not about converts, and I'm sure I didn't imply that. It's about positive and negative. From that post, it sounds like you get and accept alot of negativity about Muslims and Islam.

A religion is only as perfect as the humans interpreting it. And how many of us are perfect?

So what I learned about what was negative still stands correct and those are the points I can't morally accept. E-V-E-R.



Jesus said, "He who hath not sinned throw the first stone." And no one did, not even Jesus.

Yes so what's the point of religion then? It is inevitable that we will get it wrong. (this is serious not sarcastic)

I agree with u.

good one jen you are 100% correct we are all going to hell by how some religions think i guess.so what do we do to be perfect.its crazy.how one religion says we will be the only ones in heaven well.where are we going.and why only one religion in heaven i swear.

VERY GOOD QUESTION! I believe it's about finding God in yourself. I believe that is a life-long process. I believe religion can help you find it and I believe that religion can help you lose your way towards it.

The bee has the brand that inhibits the sting.

So what I learned about what was negative still stands correct and those are the points I can't morally accept. E-V-E-R.

Actually, it's not correct, but is it what you want to believe?

Is belief required? That was the whole point.