Hello to everyone,

Just wanted to start a thread related to but not necessarily so, to scamming. First, when corresponding to potential spouses from other countries, say, Nigeria, since according to some, the majority of the scammers are there, at what point, and how so, does the issue of money come up. What do they say, whatdo you say? I say this because in reading some of the posts, i have found that some of the women have taken numerous trips back and forth to Africa, which is very expensive, no matter what time of the year, have footed the bill, and still plans on footing the bill for their spouses once they reach the states. Incurring expenses such as paying for the flight to the states, and other fees that will be incurred pertaining to actually becoming a u.s. citizen.

Here is my story, when i met my Ola, "ONLINE", I was very wary of his intentions, I did not know him, so i was justified. I made it clear to him from day one that my father raised me to be independent, and to not take care of a man, i dont know if he got it then, but to further drive my point, i would try to incorporate it into our conversations, periodically. Honestly, i would actually sit and wait for the day when he would ask for money, and i had already prepared my "come to Jesus" speech for him, which is to say, I would give him a good, ol-fashioned southern cussing out! Well, that time never came, is this a part of the scam? I dont know but what i do know is before I met him, i had bills, a daughter to raise, and a life to live. Yes, i did spend $764 for a ticket to London, England, but that was my choice. I had never traveled, extensively before, nor had I flown on an airplane, so I figured i would get to see Ola, another country, and then receive a much needed vacation.

I just wanted to add personal insight into the mix, not what i learned from visa journey, or from veterans, but just plain everyday living, which brings far more insight that anything read on the internet.

Also, dont confuse my words, i know that when Ola is approved that he will rely on me for his support once here in the states, and i will support him until he is able to provide support for us. After all a man is the head of house.

To all of my VJ sisters, keep your money in your pockets, giving it up should not be a basis of the love you have for him.

P.S. If you require a sponsor when filing, how is it that you can afford, to take care of him, sending him money, buying expensive plane tickets, etc., debt is not funny, speaking from someone who decided to get out of it.


Sincerely
DANA

There is a vast difference of incomes between us and them. Most of our men don't come close to making the same money we do even if they have the same type of job. Joseph is a hard working, mid wage person in his country. Which means he still fights employers that try the " I will pay you next week/month " and the lack of things I consider basics such as electricity and hot water. He is also a man of great faith that we will get through this without spending money for repeated trips. I have sent money for his birthday and the holidays. He hasn't asked for more. I will be paying for the ticket and AOS and the marriage and possibly some of the fees to complete this part of the journey. He is trying his best to cover the rest of his expenses there but we think his employer has caught on to his reason for missing work. He has not collected his pay in a month so his small savings are vanishing. So far we are sneaking by, hoping for approval because his flat is paid for until Oct and we don't want to have to pay again ( 1800 USD a year )
When he arrives I know it will take a while until he is settled in a job. But even then I doubt he will ever be the major wage earner in terms of $$ and that is fine I make enough to not worry about sponsoring him. What he earns will add to the income of the household and enable us to build structures on the land he owns there, which is good for families on both ends. I did not meet him online, in fact this whole thing has proceed basically without the benefit of internet.

I think the requests for money are different for everyone.

If he is asking you for money for rent, everyday bills, food, internet access......I would run the other way.

If it is money pertaining to the visa process, then I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. Inusah and I discussed the bills for immigraiton and our wedding. He is paying for the reception and furnishing a house that his dad offered us to stay when we go home. He had saved up money for his plane ticket here. I told him to use it towards the wedding so that we could go all out. Inusah has never asked me for any money, what I have given him has only been related to immigration. I already have his money for AOS. We don't want to wait on filing that once he gets here.

I think requests for money should be judged on a case by case basis.

I have not made repeated trips. I don't have the funds for that. In fact, the first and only trip I made was later than we had hoped because the money wasn't there. I used frequent flier miles for the plane ticket and a friend got a really good deal for us on the hotel.

He has never asked me for money. And really, the only money I have sent was for things that are related to immigration and the wedding. I did send him some money when I got a bonus at work because I figured if he were here, I'd share it with him anyway so I sent some.

I already have the money for the AOS as well. I knew that I would be paying for the immigration related things. I'm lucky that my dad is paying for the wedding (I'm the only daughter, after all )

I am not bashing you or your relationship so please before I post please dont take this the wrong way.In fact this post is not aimed at you. I am only using it becuase of the comment regarding salery. For your relationship this may be fine becuase only you know your husband,the arrangements you have made and your personal finances, however for some this kind of thinking is how soo many women got and continue to get into trouble in their relationships. They immediatly assume that they are not making the kind of money we make here and that they are proving their love and devotion by "helping out". Let me tell you somthing(in a good way) I have been around Africans all my life. All of my friends are Africans and I have NEVER dated anyone but African men. I was in a long term and I mean long term relationship with a Nigerian before my first marriage. Nigerians LOVE money. In my opinion even more than the average Joe. They are very resourcefull, hardworking, go getters. They get educations rival to the Japanese. They are smart and take pride in success. Jobs may be hard to come by in Naija but let me tell you that most have emplyment becuase they will hustle(in a good way) to get money. They will sit by the road and make phone calls just to get by. In fact I have met more extremely wealthy Nigerians than I have of Americans.

Dont get me wrong, there is extreme poverty in Africa but there are many who are also wealthy or at lease middle class and making it. So many people have steryotypes about what Africa really is and immediatly assume that their boyfriend, fiance, or spouse are making little to nothing and need their financial support. Then with complete abandon start sending money, assuming the role of provider, and taking on a responsibilty that should be shared. Then they get into trouble when their SO gets here and expects the same thing.

I know for a fact that marriage and family is quite a big deal to Nigerians. Most men do not marry at an early age becuase they cannot afford a spouse and family. They do not usually consider marriage until they have enough income to care for such a task. That is why I warn so much about getting involved with a man that says he needs money or accepts his partner taking on the responsibility of such things. It is diffrent if you have disscused this and made arrangements on who will pay what and when. But I must admit I have a problem when the men are allowing their SO to take on the total responsibilty. My husband was upset with me when I started the immigration process and paid the fee and didnt tell him. He promptly sent me the money back and has said he will conintue to pay for the rest of the journey. I have offered to even go in half but he does not agree to this and says he will have faith in God that when the time comes, so will the money. I am not trying to compare my relationship with anyones, I am just giving an example of what we have discussed. Everyone is diffrent and everyones marriage is diffrent, however I must warn women new to these kind of relationships not to assume and rush in based on the idea that their man "needs" them. Be patient, and dont try to jump in and be captain save a homey.

I hope you will not think I am implying this of you Sylvia , like I said I know nothing of your marriage, but I think putting this message out there can be detremental to a newcomer who may or may not be in a bad situation. This applies for everyone though whether in a relationship with a foreigner or someone on the home front. It all comes down to keeping your senses until he has proved himself and saving the freefall for later.

You are right You have no idea of my relationship. We have known each other for years and I have known the family for over a decade. I have never implied that Joseph is lazy or going to live off me when he gets here. My comment about him not making as much as I do is a reference to my income level. I am not some welfare mom or some little old lady living on disability, so lonely for company and praying someone will drop a paycheck in my lap. Those are the types that will frustrate a hard working man as a burden and will find their home empty once again.
I am not sure why you singled me out, maybe you have something against interracial marriages but whatever you trip is that is fine. Joseph has long admired white features and that is part of what makes us tick as a couple. He has never really cared for the type of woman that spends hard earned money on hair and nails. His education there is as a construction costing manager. He made a decent wage by Nigerian standards. He was never one of those Nigerians I have had contact with that have money for things and could never quite explain how they got it. ( To me magic money spells scammer ) Right now there isn't much call for construction here in southern California so he will probably work out of his specialty. Maybe do a switch to something else. Either way he is looking working in a new country and will not be paid as a highly experienced , highly educated employee straight off.
I am not heading for a free fall by any means. Joseph is not well off in Nigeria but he was doing the best he could. He owns a couple of pieces of property that as of right now don't have dwellings on them. He is older and unmarried because when he was younger, he paid bride price for a woman, educated her and lost her to an automotive accident while she was doing her youth corp service. I have been to where she is buried on the family property. We have talked about plans for both properties as well as caring for his parents ( he is the oldest son so that falls on him ) We have talked traditions such as head shaving if he predeceases me. His father has broken a kola nut in my honor. His youngest brother and I hit off well because we are both electrical engineers. Another is a doctor. Joseph has given a lot to make sure they didn't have to leave school due to lack of money and never asked me for anything. Why would I at this point develop a sense of cheapness and tell him to reschedule an interview over a few hundred dollars. We want to be together so if for a bit more money comes out of my pocket I am fine with it.

I will quit posting here becuase no one ever really reads what someone says. I emphatically told you this post was not aimed at you but for someone new to this kind of relationship. It really suprises me how somone can post somthing with the mildest and sincerest intent and then get jumped all over by somone who did not even take the time to read what was really said but heard only what they wanted to hear. Didnt you read anything I said about this not being about you!!!!!!!!!!!! DId you see where I said this was only concerning the myth about income in NIgeria. I am sick and will say it again sick of this GARBAGE. Sick of people that just want to start somthing. I never talked about you or your husband, hence the reason for me letting you know that in the beginning. I give up on this ridiculous crap!!!

And by the way I am on disability due to a condition I cannot help. I dont see where I implied that you were! Being that I am. In fact I dont imply things!!!! I am real and will say what I REALLY want to say. I dont beat around bushes and certainly would not have done that in this case. No one has to give me credit for anything and I am not asking for it but in this case I will say GIVE ME CREDIT FOR ONE THING.... I DO NOT IMPLY THINGS , I DO NOT THROW JABS, I DO NOT SAY ONE THING WHEN I MEAN ANOTHER. IF I CAN FACE A MACHETE IN NIGERIA TO PROTECT MY CHILD DO YOU REALLY THINK I WOULD BE THAT AFRAID OF ANYONE HERE THAT I WOULD NOT COME RIGHT OUT AND SAY WHAT I WANTED!!!!!!! DONT GET IT TWISTED NOW

I see it is hard to cry fowl when you mention me by name and include my initial post in yours. It was a very pointed personal attackeven though you try to act innocent through denial. I read your post several times tying to figure out why someone would be so prejudiced.

WHERE SHOW ME!!!! SHOW ME PREJUDICE. I EVEN SAID MY RESPONSE WAS ONLY TO THE COMMENT REGARDING PEOPLE IN NIGERIA MAKING LESS MONEY!! I WILL SAY WHAT I WANT TO NOW BECUASE I AM SICK OF THIS >>>>DONT TELL ME WHAT I AM ACTING BECUASE I DONT ACT FOR ANYONES BENEFIT> I WILL SAY IT AGAIN DONT GET IT TWISTED BECUASE I AM NOT AFRAID NOR ASHAMED TO SAY WHAT I FEEL UNLESS IT IS WRONG AND BEING THAT MY POST REALLY WAS NOT AIMED AT YOU PERSONALLY I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE> DONT CALL ME PREJUDICE CUASE YOU DONT KNOW ME JUST LIKE I SAID I DONT KNOW YOU OR YOUR HUSBAND>> YOU HAVE COME OUT AND CALLED ME A LIAR AND A BIGGOT EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IN MY HEART I WAS NOT ATTACKING YOu

AND ONE MORE THING FOR THE SAKE OF MY TEMPER... HOW MANY AFRICANS DO YOU KNOW< HAVE YOU EVER LIVED IN NAIJA FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME< HOW MANY AFRICANS HAVE YOU BEFRIENDED, HOW MUCH HAVE YOU READ AND LEARNED ABOUT AFRICA BEFORE DECIDING TO "LOOK IT UP" BASED ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP. I LOVE NAIJA AND THE PEOPLE AND WOULD NEVER BE PREJUDICE AGAINST THE MAN I LOVE ,NOR MY DUAGHTER< NOR THE CONTINENT OF MY FAMILIES BIRTH. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT NIGERIANS LOVE THE FINER THINGS IN LIFE AND ARE VERY SUCCESFUL AND AMBITIOUS> WHAT IS PREDJUDICE IN SAYING THAT??? YOU WANNA KNOW ABOUT PREJUDICE THEN JUST LOOK TO THE PAST AND THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED THROUGHOUT HISTORY TO AFRICANS< AFRICAN AMERICANS< NATIVE AMERICANS< AND LOW INCOME EUROPEANS> THAT WAS PREJUDICE. DONT EVER CALL ME PREJUDICE AGAIN... DONT EVEN GO THERE WITH ME LADY!!! NOW YOU SEE.... I CAN SAY WHAT I REALLY WANT TO.

AND ONE MORE THING>>>>>> I DONT HAVE THE EMOTICON BUT I AM PASSING OUT THE POPCORN **************THERE IT IS DONE! ENJOY

here popcorn for all of us. Can we all make up now ? We just sang Kumbaja in the other thread and roasted marshmellows maybe
it would work here too ?

The popcorn will go well with that hateraide you are drowning in .

This country has allowed people to be whatever they are willing to WORK to be. It takes a lot of work to get ahead. But it is because of that ability to rise that the Nigerians prosper here in this country. As do every other immigrant group that puts in a lot of hard work. That is the reason people come here. They hope they can put their hard work, their ideas to the test and improve their lots in life. People come here that live comfortably in their home countries for that reason. People here can be born in one class and move themselves into another if they are willing to work at it.
The way you are talking about Nigerians and the "myths" about their poverty I must ask have you ever been there ? I don't see how anyone that has been there can say that people there are not in general extremely poor. Yes there is a class of people that are well off. There are the scammers that run around spending their mystery income like rock stars. You go to the villages and you see simple earthen or brick dwelling overshadowed by the huge mansions that the expatriates return to build. You see people drag themselves in the street for lack of a wheel chair. Many sell whatever they can during traffic holdups just to try to survive. The AVERAGE income is under 2000 USD a year. Only the poorest person here wouldn't think that the average Nigerian isn't poor.
I have contributed through KIVA and WomanfroWoman. I research affordable rugged wheelchairs and
embassy grants . I learned about Nigeria years before I met Joseph. I have been to meetings in southern California honoring officals here on travel . What have you done for this country you love so dearly ?

YOU KNOW I SEE THAT YOU DONT CARE TO SEE THE TRUTH . I KNOW I WAS NOT ATTACKING YOU IN MY INITIAL POST> I SAID I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE BECUASE I MEANT NO HARM IN THE FIRST POST. I SEE YOU DID NOT READ MY POST WITH A OPEN HEART AT ALL JUST WITH BITTERNESS AND RAGE> I WONT TRY TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU ANYMORE> I KNOW I HAVE LIVED THERE AND GIVEN TO THE POOR THERE, I TOOK CARE OF NEIGHBORHOOD CHILDREN WHILE I WAS THERE AND GAVE TO THEM FREELY BECUASE I CARED. YOU HAVE READ MY POST WRONG AND I WILL STAND BY THAT. THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO CALL ME NAMES AND INSULT MY TRUE INTENTIONS IS EVIDENCE THAT YOU JUST WANT TO CREATE HAVOC AND NOT PEACE. I DONT KNOW HOW YOU REPRESENTED YOURSELF ON THE BOARDS BEFORE BUT I AM TELLING YOU THAT YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR NOW, YOU DID NOT READ MY POST RIGHT AND I SEE YOU WILL NOT TRY TO. I AM INNOCENT HERE AND CAN PROMISE THAT ON MY LIFE TIMES 10. I AM SORRY YOU WONT TRY TO SEE THINGS DIFFRENT BUT FRANKLY I DONT CARE . I WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE AND LEAVE ME ALONE. BECUASE I AM THROUGH POSTING ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS TOPIC. NOT FOR YOUR SAKE BUT FOR MINE BECUASE THIS IS ONLY MAKING ME FEEL BAD WHEN I KNOW I ONLY MEAN WELL. PEACE

Ladies...LADIES!!!


A little theme music for the feud......

I vote for TBT for president ! Maybe it will diffuse the situation a bit

Well put. My husband and I have split the costs for the visa petitions. We have taken trips back and forth, but it usually works out half/half always; as a marriage should be (and that isn't to say monitarily speaking.. that's goes across the board). You never expect your spouse to make the same, or the make more. You do what you do with the means that you have.

Oh sorry that I'm a European in the Sub Sarahan-Africa thread... I just thought it was an interesting one.

I can deal with videos music hath charms that smooth the savage breast

even if it is a hillbilly one.

NOT AGAIN!!!!

First lurking and now you too...

What is it with the pornographic typos?????

freudian slips...

Jawohl das pasiert mal so.

das auf jeden fall. mach ich ja auch ab und zu.

you are more than wrong for that video



all are welcome, I like salt with my pepper

The qoute is from a play by William Congreve ( 1670-1729) The full line is Music hath charms to soothe a savage breast, To soften rocks, or bend a knotted oak.
Is it a common mistake to use the word beast for breast in the quote

sounds good to me! salt and pepper go good together, especially at VJ.

U got dat shyyyyt rite

I dont want to "soothe a savages breast" but hey if you are brave enough to take on a savage you go girl!!!

aber bitte nicht auf dem Konsulat.

I like salt with my pepa



Like this??

yes, like dat, I wanna shoop baybe'

Yes, yes, yes! Exactly, the requests for money are different, for example, your husband has been saving money in preparation for his coming here, Bravo! to you. Ola, is doing the same, his reason being that, he knows i am a single mother, and he knows my first priority is my daughter. We do not wish to cause stress on her living and well-being. I am thinking, long-term, and so is he. The process in itself is expensive. Just wanted to hear others opinions on the subject. Thanks for your valuable input!

Dana

Quite alright! Maybe, i should have asked what careers do you guys have so i can switch, because my means aren't pretty!

There is a saying I use quite often, "Kämpfen und Siegen." Basically, struggle and success. It can be applied to everyday and every experience (I think). When the going gets tough, the tough gets going.

People who have to defend their relationships are really defending to themselves not you 4theloveofhenry. So do not take it personal. When I first was here I supported Idocare causes, because I know exactly what you explained. She is defensive because of her own doubts. It has nothing to do with what you said. Take it with a grain of salt. I realize that when people get defensive about these post it is because they are really defensive about themselves.

Many Nigerian's are resentful of the American/western civilization ways. The quest to be as successful and materialistic has Americans is what causes corruption and deceit among their people. There is an article that talks about the failure of the African union of couples because of western civilization. There is one thing to need money to feed and take care of medicals, but for anything else is just unjustified. The cost of living there is substantially lower. Despite the empowerment of women in America some Nigerian men are resentful of this financial success over them. You might think I have done all this for him he will never leave me or at least always be my friend, but you are sorely mistaken. This could actually billed resentment and distain overtime, if one is not careful around their intention of being a provider.



1. Issue of Dowry and the role of the man and woman

The payment of dowry is a common practice in Africa, while dowry payments date back to Bible days, its meaning has changed. Dowry is now seen as purchasing the woman, so the woman is seen as a property and not a helpmate.

For many years when women were uneducated, men got away with treating them as a property. But with women lawyers, doctors, and other highly placed professionals, things are changing.

Based on the issue of dowry, women are treated different. We joke that a woman's place is in the kitchen. African men force respect out of their spouse by beating them instead of getting it through good leadership. The leadership role of a man is generally interpreted as that of a boss and servant, instead of the role stated in the Bible, as servant leader which Christ himself demonstrated in John chapter 13 when He washed the feet of His disciple.

While speaking to over 100 pastors and wives in Port-au-Prince, Haiti last week (4/8 - 4/16/05) you could have heard the pin drop when I said men and women are equal before God and men are only the leader among equal.

Earning more than your husband is a new concept that many people don't know how to deal with because for decades African men (and indeed men all over the world) have tied leading the home to financial dominance or more earning capacity.

Feme Awodele

I was not defending myself I was responding to an unwarranted personal attack from someone that had no knowledge of the truth. I have no doubts at all about my relationship so thank you very much for throwing out some more thoughtless words. If you don't know what you are talking about you should really not make accusations. May god forgive you for your behavior

I understand what you were trying to say here and I am pretty sure others understand you as well. The thing is that when conversations get out of hand like this one has, people tend to not want to get involved.

I don't think you are prejudice and I don't believe you were trying to take jabs at anyone here. I believe you were just trying to be informative and share your own personal experience.

VJ's purpose is not to create an uncomfortable and hostile environment. It is suppose to be an environment that offers support and encouragement. I really don't want this negative experience to give VJ a bad rap. There are a lot of positive, loving and extremely supportive people here. I can honestly say that I received so much support an help from people here.

Just like in life, on VJ you have to filter out all the negative talk and focus on the positive ones. And there are way more positive talk here!

This negative experience in no way represents the people of VJ. We got your back if you need us!!!

I thouroughly read her post. She was not attacking you. You she was making a comment on her knowledge and experience. I felt your responce to her was much more attacking. There is a reason you specificly felt attacked, but it has nothing to do with her. Only you.

Why would God have to forgive me? Because I am educated someone on why people get defensive.



"Generally, when people talk about someone becoming defensive in the context of a conversation, they are meaning that that someone is engaging in emotionally defensive maneuvers designed to ward off their having to experience some unwanted feeling or admit responsibility for some disowned act. People who are acting defensively are essentially trying to protect themselves from feeling a certain uncomfortable way, and from viewing themselves as a failure or otherwise in a negative light. " Ann Witt, MD

If people think this conversation has gotten out of hand they should leave the thread to die . I certainly wish it would. But if ANYONE thinks they know my relationship better than I do and wishes to post false statements about it be prepared for a rebuttal. I am especially shocked at those that pretend to be children of God throwing casting stones at my faith in this. This whole thread is definitely NOT supportive to my journey in fact I may save it as an example of it's darkest moments as the minions of the devil try to tear it apart.

Only God can see the heart. It could be as simple as misunderstanding the meaning of the typed word by someone and we should not judge someones relationship and assume a reply is defensiveness when it is a misunderstanding.

She was using a tact called diversion. In her denial of being person she called me out by name . If I make the statement
I am not claiming Sally stole the money by inference I am associating her name with that act.
She did not make a general statement but one directed toward me that I did take personally. Even after she posted in another thread that she was done with it, She returned to this one to have one last attack. I dropped the whole mess praying that it was over. But now you show up as self appointed analyst and decide that I am unsure of my relationship. And throwing it snippets for your gallery of quotes to justify your slander to wards my relationship.
I am stating right now that I am not going to let this negative devil tongued drivel ruin my journey. I hope you all have more compassion for others in real life than you are currently displaying on this "safe" haven for casting stones. My mother taught me long ago that many of those that profess to be godly are actually the devils agents of chaos and I certainly see that here.

I was not slandering your relationship. I was explaining to her not to take your reaction personal and explanation of why people feel defensive. I know nothing about your relationship nor do I need to understand why people react defensively.



Maybe she is attacking you personally, but only you know that. Your defensive post to her response will only solidify her comments. So if what you say is the truth she accomplished what she wanted. Only through your reaction could she do that.

Thank you so much for the one sign of understanding and compassion that I have seen is this sea of ugliness

[correction]

I was did not slandering your relationship.

I was explaining to her not to take your reaction personal and explanation of why people feel defensive. I know nothing about your relationship nor do I need to understand why people react defensively.

I do not have to nor should you expect posters to read every single topic in visajourney or the subsuharah. I read this posting and I am responding to her post. The fact that you think my quotes are a slander to your relationship really makes no sence. Again you are being defensive to my post.

I can tell that her long paragraph of her husband's life was a defensive responce. It was not just one statement that lead me to this conclusion it was several.



I did not judge her relationship. I do not know who she is or who her husband his. I can't even remember if they are married. I would have to go back and look. I am commenting on her defensive post that made the OP feel upset. I told her not to take it personal.












See I am writing like she is married and she is not. So how could I judge a relationship I know nothing about.

She is defensive because of her own doubts
Those are you own devil spawned words casting dispersion at a relationship you have no inside knowledge about. I seriously would love to know why you would think it is your duty to cast such judgment at my relationship. Are you above us all and have the gift to try to tear apart a relationship ? Are you of a new sect that masks itself as Christian that delights at casting falsehoods on the net ? Just please explain to me why you are doing this ? What part of your cut and paste religious quotes gives you the right to cast judgment on my relationship ? This isn't anything close to a supportive venue.

OH, could you please quote me where I cast judgment on your relationship?

The only thing I will ask GOD to forgive me on is wasting my time in forums having this conversation with you.





Oh and its poster that are so defensive that keep people from posting. I get messages in my in box from people who are afraid to speak their mind for some reason in the African Sub sahara.