Salam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu everyone,

Here's a specific topic for people genuinely interested in discussing Islamic subjects, discussing cultural habits, furthering their knowledge in the deen, studying Quran and hadith, discussing their experiences as new Muslims or born-Muslims or born Muslims who have renewed their faith after a leave of absence, and for people with a sincere and genuine interest in Islam, and anything else pertaining to Islam and Muslims' way of life and religion. Let's try to stay away from politics unless it has some historical basis, this post isn't to harass people or to go off topic, let's stick to the topic. I seek knowledge from those who are knowledgeable and I would appreciate information to be cited from their true sources (books, websites, etc.) If the sources can't be remembered, that's okay. Please feel free to ask questions, give advice/words of wisdom, and maintain discussions while keeping this a respectful, safe, non-hostile environment, and this topic is for Muslim participants only, for and by Muslims (and those genuinely interested in Islam having already done some studying/research). Thank you.

Baslama w Allah y3onakoum,

April

So I'm interested to know if anyone has come across false hadith before. I was reading a really good essay from a scholar in Lebanon, translated into English of course, and he cited one hadith that had been purposely altered (a part left out) that circulates in many communities. Then he gave the full version of the hadith and it made so much sense and was such a relief. If anyone's interested I'll post it next time.

this might get more play in mena....or do you want it left in ot?

eta: i see this was in mena, i don't know who moved it to ot but i'm moving it back.

Yeah I don't know who moved it or even how to move it!

hi, yes i would be very interested in seeing this.......

only organizers/admin/mods can move threads.

I moved it because it is not MENA related. There are more Muslims OUT of the Middle East, than in. Why would an obviously religious based thread belong in MENA anyway? Many of our MENA members are Christian and Jewish. Why not let the Off Topic crowd participate?

Jackie

That sounds fine with me, I just put it in MENA because I thought the participants of the other "Muslims" topic might want to participate here too and might not know where to find it, but wherever you think it should go is cool with me, the more the merrier.

but how many understand what this means?

Salam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu everyone, Baslama w Allah y3onakoum,

Hey Estadia,

So I can't find the book I read it in but I looked it up on the internet and it's cited also as being an altered hadith. I'll paraphrase then copy and paste the portion of the website I found it at, and I'll give you the address. It's a very interesting essay, especially on the part of being "obedient" to one's husband, because I thought we were supposed to be obedient to Allah. (?) That obedient part is the very last part. ANYWAYS sorry for the tangent, the false hadith is that women and dogs and donkeys break prayer if they walk in front of the believer, and there are many versions of this false hadith too, and what the Prophet (saws) really said was that back in the day the Jews would say that 3 things bring bad luck, the house, women and horses, and that the Prophet disapproved of this way of thinking. So what people changed it to was they left out the part of the Prophet saying that it was the Jews who said that and that he didn't like them saying that. Interesting huh? Here's the copy and paste from this site:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Asia/Pakistan/position.html

In Islam, women scholars question the validity of some ahadith which are used in law and reinforce misogyny. One example of this has been identified in Mernissi's book, The Veil and the Male Elite (2003), she reiterates what the prophet supposedly said. ''The dog, the ###, and woman interrupt prayer if they pass in front of a believer, interposing themselves between him and the qibla'' (Mernissi 2003: 64). Firstly this hadith is not in line with Islamic teachings because Islam is opposed to superstition. Subsequent to re-investigating this hadith and re-examining historical scholarship, the Hadith was found to be incompatible with Islamic principles.
The correct version of that hadith according to the Islamic tradition is as follows: ''May Allah refute the Jews; they say three things bring bad luck: house, woman, and horse'' (Mernissi 2003:76). Muslim women scholars aim to find the correct interpretations of verses and ahadith which affect women. In doing so, they present Islam as it is in the Qur'an and Sunnah without male biases. Their approach is also based on detailed historical research of the contexts and the reasons [asbab anuzul] for each revelation; in reverence of the text and whilst maintaining their strong faith in God.

I am happy to be apart of this thread as well... sign me up. I think mine got wayyyyy off topic. Sorry

(I am happy to be apart of this thread as well... sign me up. I think mine got wayyyyy off topic. Sorry )
[/quote]






yeah that happens sometimes.....normally i ignore and try to bring it back to topic ......but that dont always work.....

i have heard that one before and unfortunately there are many that believe it.......and it is when things like this happen that has been the seed that starts male biases of course there are other things as well .lol but this is a good example of misinformation that is published..........

What about the other sahih ahadeeth that confirm a woman, donkey or black dog (not any dog) invalidates the prayer if they pass in front of the sutra?

it's been my understanding that this one from bukhari is held to be more authentic and provides clarity.

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 493:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet."

490, 491, 492, and 494 all pretty much say the same as well.

Hmmm that's interesting. I haven't heard that one. I'd like to see an article from a scholar that discusses all of these ahadeeth. I thought I read somewhere that it was a menstrating woman that invalidates the prayer but I can't find anything about that now. The other ahadeeth say a black dog and that a black dog is different than a dog of another color (meaning it's only the black dog that invalidates the prayer) Allahu 'alim.

Yeah, here's a link to those ahadith, the University of Southern California has a whole collection of texts and 3 translations of the Quran, and you can search specific words in the Quran and hadith!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#001.009.493

It's a great resource! That "menstruating woman" part sounds like some of the old Jewish superstitions and even Native American superstitions, I know many tribes isolated their women during menstruation. And one of those hadith under number 493 will say that one of the wives of the Prophet would lay in bed during her period while the Prophet was standing up praying next to her, so I don't think a woman's period has anything to do with anyone else's prayer, just that she herself may not pray. And what a mercy that is!

There's a difference between being next to and crossing in front of a person while they're praying. There is nothing in Islam that says a woman has to be isolated while menstrating.

I know that a dog invalidates the wudu if its drool touches u or what u re wearing and must do wudu all over again and wear something different.

Also no isolation for women during their menstruation since there is a hadith where it says the prophet sala Allah 3alayhi wassalam used to put his head on Aisha radya Allahu 3anha's lap and recite quran.

I dont know how can i get those hadiths in English but im sure of them coz i have the books here but they re in arabic.

i think she's talking about a different hadith, about a different subject. i don't think anyone is comparing being next to and crossing in front of someone. aisha's talks about herself laying in bed between the prophet while he was praying and the qibla. the one april is talking about above is from bukhari again- Volume 1, Book 9, Number 497:
Narrated Maimuna:
The Prophet used to pray while I used to sleep beside him during my periods (menses) and in prostrations his garment used to touch me.

Yeah, I was saying the Jews and Native Americans and other civilizations used to isolate the women but that doesn't happen in Islam, because someone mentioned they heard menstruating women invalidating a prayer. And the whole crossing in front of a person part is different, because anybody, male or female, is not supposed to cross in front of a person praying, unless there's a sutra it seems. But I never learned anything about "sutras" while I was taking a course on prayer, that seems weird that it wasn't mentioned in this really detailed book we studied from. It's funny how people threw women in the same category as donkeys and dogs, but that Paradise is at the feet of mothers (who are WOMEN) That lets me know that the efforts to put women down is bid3a because it is contrary to Islam and the position that it gives women, which is better than any other religion in my opinion.

I read that is it not permisable for a woman on her period to enter the mosque. Because she is un pure!

Sigh, here we go again with the interpretations of non-N8tive people including but not limited to anthropologists and historians who viewed SOME tribes isolation of women during their monthly cycle to mean that these women were unclean . The truth is , the woman's power is stronger during their periods so it may interfere with the powers for hunting and/ or medicine ceremonies. So, isolation protected these other powers.

says who? from muslim:

Book 003, Number 0588:
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered me that I should get him the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do get me that, for menstruation is not in your hand.

Book 003, Number 0589:
Abu Huraira reported: While the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was in the mosque, he said: O 'A'isha, get me that garment. She said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand, and she, therefore, got him that.

i always took not praying at that time as just relaxing and getting a little bit more rest, as opposed to a "purity" issue, but that's just me.

That's interesting, and I didn't know why they isolated them, just knew that they did (historical fiction books, you learn a lot!) Thanks for the explanation. So what "powers" are they talking about? If the women were stronger, wouldn't that have helped the hunting? Maybe not.

As far as being "unpure", that is an idea that is from pre-Islamic times and is based out of ignorance. Women don't pray and fast because they're "unpure" or "unclean," they avoid praying and fasting because menstruation is a hardship on women and we're given a break, not having to make up missed prayers, but missed Ramadan days need to be made up. That is one of the mercies from Allah swt, that we get a break during our period. No man ever has an excuse to not pray, ever, and I kind of feel bad for them in that regard. At least we get a "get out of jail free" card every month I'm not equating prayer with jail, lol, that's just the term most commonly used.

So here in Morocco, widows are confined to their homes, like literally confined, they can't go outside at all, for the idda period, 4 months and 10 days. Last time I checked that was totally contradictory to the Quran. Any words on that one? I know in Senegal they practice that too but strangely, the idda length they practice is 40 days. Seems like people are all over the place!

Btw does anyone know if Jews or Christians have specific "waiting" periods for widows? Just curious.

I used to think it as getting rested too but then how come pregnant women are not exempt, you know? They get even more tired especially in that last trimester.

That's a good question, but some women I've known were healthy as a horse the whole time and didn't get sick once. I'm hoping I could be as lucky. I realized my comment sort of made it sound like I was saying the 4 months and 10 days part was contradictory to the Quran, but I wasn't saying that, I was only saying the confinement part. But the 40 days in Senegal IS wrong, it's too short!

This is from the website Islamtoday.com, Its a good site!

`Â’ishah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him said: “I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd, Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan al-Bayhaqî, and Sahîh Ibn Khuzaymah]

There is a context for this hadîth. The Prophet (peace be upon him) observed that some of the homes of his Companions opened up onto the mosque. He said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque.” He then entered the mosques without doing anything, hoping that a concession would be revealed to him. Later, he went out to them and said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque, for I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.”

In the mosque I used to attend they had a different section, separate from the actual masjid for woman that are mestruating.

No, they don't. It's left up to what is considered culturally appropriate. Many cultures in the past had a period which was considered approrpiate for mourning. Christians have no concrete law in the New Testament so would refer back to the Torah, and Jews have a slightly more concrete mourning set of rituals some of which are tradition or Talmud, although nothing is prescribed as a waiting period like in Islam in Torah:

http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm

BTW, the idea of a menstruating woman being unclean in Torah is that she is unclean to enter the temple and those who come into contact with her (which would be her family) would be rendered unclean. This is not about her as a woman. It is about the issue of blood. If a man were to be bleeding, he would be considered unclean and if he is unclean all that he touches would be subject to the exact same rules for the duration of his uncleanliness. This is different than being impure in self. A woman is not impure, but is given a respite from her normal routine during this time. She and her husband are given a time in which to connect free from sexual time, through intimacy of conversation and gestures such as gifts, etc. She can still pray and can still commune with G-d, just not enter the temple and she is supposed to avoid (as is her family) family uncleanliness. This would be the same again if it were a man. It would also be the same if someone was to touch any of the unclean things such as dead animals, etc. The waiting period is different depending on what it is, but still ti renders one unclean. Women who are menstruating are also not required to announce their state as unclean as those who suffer from illness are, which is interesting. It is a private business. So this niddah (seperation) is not based on superstition but is based in the law given to Moses, and it is not something about women being impure, it is about the issue of blood. The general time is set at 7 days in the Torah. orthodox Jews add 7 more days believing that the 7 days starts when one is free from blood. If the blood continues beyond the normal time, then more time is added to it.

Oh! and every tribe, like Nagishkaw said, was different in their beliefs and systems of behavior... SOME (not all, and this belief is also not limited to NAs, Europeans, etc also heald similar if not identical beliefs depending on location) believed that the state of a woman influenced the corresponding state of that which was around her. So a pregnant woman was good for fertility. A menstruating woman would influence things to the negative in that you wouldn't want her out planting fields, etc as she would bring a power of barrenness with her. This was only SOME beliefs.

There is also the corresponding (sometimes, not always, sometimes this is on its own completely) moon phases beliefs for crops and planting... not planting on various moon phases, planting on others in order to gain greater fertility. Many women's cycles are somewhat tied to or completely tied to the moon and so sometimes this was also accounted for in the belief as a matter of re-enforcement of it (sort of like "see? moon is on X phase and now my wife is menstruating (barren) and that proves it all!").

We call having a period, " On the moon " or just " Mooning " .

I call it 'being on vacation.'....

Thanks Nagishaw for clarifying this for our Muslim friends . Indeed, the power of women in their moon is strong and can interfere, but it is not isolation, it is protection.
I love the idea of this thread, I can learn more about Islam -- perhaps we could start a thread on Native Spirituality?

The fiqh rules regarding prayer during menses are much more complex in fiqh than often commonly known, and involve determining the consistancy, texture and color of the woman's issue, as well as the length of time she has been bleeding. The historical record shows that they were not barred from the mosque. With the help of modern "technology", there are women who pray during menses, and believe that to not do so is more against the commandment than to do so, for hardship varies by individual, not by gender.

This belief is actually more common among native americans than not. I did the pow wow curcuit for many years with my half native/half Arab relatives and was exposed to the concept of the power they held during that time of the month.

There is a distinct loss of diversity amongst native peoples now as far as belief and culture, as well as in language and practices. There is a distinct uniformity across many tribes at this point due to loss of knowledge through death/willful assimilation and then an attempt to regain it and not having anywhere to start.. so going to what was more popular in current culture. For whatever reason, plains culture for the northern plains really caught on for the public in the US, and many tribes mow immitate this as their own culture-- even though it had little or nothing to do with their original cultures. Also, this would have been enhanced by forced migrations and regrouping of tribes.

ETA: Pow-wow circuit would be a perfect example of this.

That is absolutely true, but it wasn't always like that, even in my lifetime. Having been involved with Native communities on three continents for more than 40 years, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness and even resentment about this development. I've even seen plains culture spread into Alaska where the traditions are still relatively strong. Looking at photos from events I've organized and attended, from east coast to west, there is a uniformity (war bonnets are very popular) that is embarrassing, if you know anything about the cultural diversity that once existed, and not that long ago.

East coast tribes were especially open to taking on the affectations of other tribes in an effort not to be classified as "Negro", losing status, and being segregated from whites. One of the tribes married into the family is the Pamunkey, a Virginia group with a reservation in King William County that split into several factions based on how racist they were inclined to be toward blacks.

An attorney I assisted with their application to be recognized by the federal government (they are state recognized) was especially puzzled by how bent over backwards their bylaws had gone to appeal to racism and sexism in an attempt to stay viable. However, others married across race freely. In fact, Natives marry outside of their groups than any other North Americans.

All it takes to realize how bad it has gotten is to mention Cahokia and see how many people really even realize what that is.. or ask if they realize moccasins were invented by "white" people on the wild-west show circuits of the 1800s, or if they knew Cherokee is not a tribe but a nation, and that they lived in wooden house structures... etc.

WHich brings me to another aside as well, that I have never heard of a single Jewish saying that houses, horses, and women are bad luck. If that were true, why would Jews live in houses for thousands of years? Or have horses? Just a thought.

Isn't Cahokia an ancient huge city from like the late 1200s? I wanna say it's somewhere in or around Oklahoma...it was in an historical fiction book I read. That's interesting about the Natives being racist, it's like the Latinos always fighting the blacks who are always fighting the Asians and everyone's fighting each other...if they all joined forces then they could really take over. I have no idea about the Jewish people saying that but I think it was something that used to go around back in the day, but it's probably died out. Maybe someone purposely misquoted them too, it happens.

Virtual wife, can you elaborate on the women who do pray during their period?

i call it hummer week

FYI Islamtoday is a very very strict site. I belong to a woman's forum there and although the woman are nothing but lovely and helpful they are very very strict in all things Islamic, so it's not suprising that you would have found that on that site.




As one of my favorite comedians says, they don't close down the carnival just 'cause the ferris wheel's broken.

Book 003, Number 0588:
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered me that I should get him the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do get me that, for menstruation is not in your hand.

Book 003, Number 0589:
Abu Huraira reported: While the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was in the mosque, he said: O 'A'isha, get me that garment. She said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand, and she, therefore, got him that.

i always took not praying at that time as just relaxing and getting a little bit more rest, as opposed to a "purity" issue, but that's just me.
[/quote]

This is from the website Islamtoday.com, Its a good site!

`Â’ishah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him said: “I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.â€� [Sunan Abî Dâwûd, Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan al-Bayhaqî, and Sahîh Ibn Khuzaymah]

There is a context for this hadîth. The Prophet (peace be upon him) observed that some of the homes of his Companions opened up onto the mosque. He said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque.â€� He then entered the mosques without doing anything, hoping that a concession would be revealed to him. Later, he went out to them and said: “Reorient these homes so that they do not face the mosque, for I do not permit a woman in her menses or a person in a state of major ritual impurity into the mosque.â€�
[/quote]


FYI Islamtoday is a very very strict site. I belong to a woman's forum there and although the woman are nothing but lovely and helpful they are very very strict in all things Islamic, so it's not suprising that you would have found that on that site.


I agree, but the hadith does exist! So it is abviously how prophet muhammad (pbuh) stated it should be!

I agree, but the hadith does exist! So it is abviously how prophet muhammad (pbuh) stated it should be!
[/quote]

So how do we distinguish between these two hadith that seem to contradict one another? How is the chain of evidence on each one? Could it be possible there's a weak source for one of them?

Cahokia was the central city during the mississippian culture time period ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture) which ended in the 1500s, although Cahokia itself collapsed in the 1400s. It had over 1 million people living in it at the time of it's peak, and it is just above St. Louis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

It contains the largest earthworks in North America. it also contains the largest pallisade wall, which had trees which were a minimum of 3ft in diamter, many up to 6+ft. Knowing they didn't have metal tools, cranes, or anything of the like, one should be impressed.

So how do we distinguish between these two hadith that seem to contradict one another? How is the chain of evidence on each one? Could it be possible there's a weak source for one of them?
[/quote]

Bukhari is the most authenticized then Muslim thats what i know for sure but i dont know about the rest. So just check the chain and check which is of stronger authenticity

I asked and i was told that u have to depend on the methodoligy/approach that one uses in understanding a hadith. There are different schools of thoughts and opinions concerning fiqh. In this particular example you have what seems to be a contradiction but scholars have agreed that there are levels to a certain ruling from the prophet sala Allahu 3alayhi wassalam for example theres obligations; mostahab -prefered-; mobah -permissable-; makrouh -disliked-; haram -forbidden. So if u follow a certain madhab/ school of thought then follow their ruling concerning this hadith.

I hope that answers ur question and erases any confusion insha Allah.

It does, and I appreciate your help, I've done a lot of reading and studying but I'm hesitant to choose one school of thought because it seems like I should believe in all schools of thought since they all have the same source, you know? And I'm afraid of falling into the category of people that wanders off the beaten path, the 70-something factions of Muslims that will go to Hell because they broke off and formed "other" groups, I try to stick to the Islam that the Prophet saws practiced but it's hard sometimes because we're a generation so far removed from him that we can only rely on our written sources, and even then you know, you have the hadith with the weak or extremely weak chains of reference so I'm just thinking why don't they take them out already instead of confusing us so much!!! Too bad they didn't have youtube back then, they could've documented everything! LOL But I guess it all comes back to our intentions, right?

Esalaamu Aleikoum rahmat Allah,

This is great thread, and surprisingly no one has run with flaming everyone with a religious thought! Great progress people!

I am interested to know for those who were Muslims before marrying/visiting her SO in their native countries (or knowledgable in Islam)... what was your intital thoughts on Islam when you first arrived? Compared to before? Did it change? Did you feel more spiritual or see contridictions? Did your eyes clear up in the light of Islam or did they cloud (due to bidah)? Did the thought of Hijraah ever come into your mind?

I reverted to Islam prior to visiting my SO and marrying him. One thing I noticed was women are more segregated in the mosque here in the United States than in the part of the middle east I visited. This suprised me. My husband and I were able to enter the mosque together and I could see him while he was praying. Every mosque I go to here has segregated the women far more and provided seperate entrances.

I also enjoyed hearing the Adhan played at prayer times. Here in the United States you must rely completely on yourself to keep up with the times though I loaded the Adhan onto my computer to help me. Unfortunately I am not always home when it plays or I am in another part of my home and don't hear it.

As far as thoughts on Islam, I had to constantly seperate the religion from the culture while I was in the middle east and that makes things tricky. Sometimes muslims go too far in the middle east and sometimes I was suprised at their lack of following Islamic prinicples. I suppose this just happens everywhere with any religion though.

Part of me wished I could stay in the middle east where practicing Islam is easier, but it is not possible in me and my husband's case.