Just wanted to know your thoughts on couples using a tourist visa to get married in the U.S. and being able to apply for AOS, EVEN when they did have ALL the prior intention to use the tourist visa to immigrate to the U.S. permanently.

It just upsets me sooo much everytime I hear of someone else taking this "shortcut" and getting away with it! I just had a discussion with some guy in another forum on this subject and he was so cool about it, he said they'd rather take the risk of being accused of visa fraud, because "the K-1 route is too long and does not adjust to their plans", and he disagrees with the immigration laws! What the heck???!!!!

Don't you all feel like everytime they let someone get away with this, it's like a slap on the faces of those of us who chose to do the righ the thing?

Would they ever change the regulations so it's not possible to apply for AOS if you got married on a B2? Or even if it remains possible why don't they put these couples to a stronger scrutinity? I've heard many people doing this, and not having ANY sort of problem during the interview! Some of us who chose the legal way, had a harder time on our interviews than they had!

It is just soooo upsetting! And so unfair! I come to VJ every day, and see so many couples dealing with all the pressures and stress of interviews at the Consulates, and hear their stories about the CO's putting people on reviews, or calling them for a second interview or even getting denied for stupid or not valid reasons, and on the other hand I see all these law breakers, using the B-2 route to immigrate and getting away with it, and it just irks me!!!

I just realized I posted on the wrong forum, can someone move this to Immigration Discussion and News? Please? Thanks!

moved

and yes, it burns me up to that they are taking advantage of the system instead of following the preferred route.

I think it's BS as well. I personally thing, they should be sent back home and forced to then apply for the K-3 or CR1.

It's very unfair all the way around.

i think that it makes those of us that try to do it the right way look like fools for waiting the ridicules amount of time that the service centers and then embassy's make u wait .......they come here with full intent to marry on b1 visa we make it known we intend to marry or are married what ever the case maybe and we are penalized......they say there is not any loop holes in in immigration i beg do differ...................

Couldn't agree more. Wish they would close that loophole once and for all.

I concur...what makes them so bloody special? If I knew how easy it was, I might have been tempted to do it. A friend of mine did it last summer, and he got his new wife's green card in less than 3 months...

I have a feeling that Darren's green card will take much longer...

You think people shouldn't be able to come here for a visit, meet someone, fall in love, and get married?

Since you wanted to know our thoughts...
1. Current immigration law is not good. That's why it is broken sooo many times. That is why it needs to change.
2. Those that use the loophole are either brave souls or simpleminded people not realizing what consequences may follow.
If anything, I applaud them for taking advantage of the system. Way to go. They don't break the law, so all is cool.

That's just it. They are not breaking the law. Some people actually do meet someone here whilst on a student visa, work visa or VWP and decide to marry spur of the moment, adjust status and no laws have been broken. If intention beforehand is discovered; the consequences are harsh, however.

*crosses arms*

Let me give you a scenario and see if you think this would be 'immigration fraud' -- or 'taking advantage of the system' as you put it.

A couple has filed for K1. He visits her in the US (while the petition is in process but before it is approved) and after a lovely visit, it is time for him to go home. He cancels his flight home on the scheduled day because there has been an act of terrorism in his country that morning and the situation in the Capital (where he would be landing) is uncertain. He attempts to fly home three days letter but is foiled again by flight cancellations due to horrendous weather up and down the eastern US coast. On his third attempt to leave, the first flight out he is to take is delayed because the weather has not subsided still. It looks as if all flights may cancel again.

He says to her, standing in the airport as they wait to see if the flights are again cancelled - "I have tried to leave your country three times. If I cannot get out today, to hell with it - we are getting married and I am staying".

Is that fraud? Are they abusing the system?

There are many, many cases where there is no fraud, and yes, it is currently legal. But there's also good reasons why it should discontinued, at least from VWP or B tourist visas because it does allow for abuse. Although I personally have no problems with adjusting from other visa categories, when someone has already been living here longterm.

The way I see it (and I might be wrong) - no, it's not. He entered the state with the intention to leave it. He even tried to leave it. His intention changed while he was already inside and it's okay if he gets married and applies for AOS.

So, the way I understand American laws... this is perfectly fine.

its not fraud or abusing the system but it is making excuses not to leave. just cuz he was stranded for a few days doesnt mean he will be stuck here forever. its not a life and death situation to wait and go back and wait for the k-1 to finish processing. no one likes to be seperated from their loved one but no one likes it either when someone cuts in line either.

I don't know how it could be discontinued. Honestly.

Can you think of a fair way?



So you wouldn't consider it fraud or abusing the system, but you would consider it 'cutting in line'?

I don't see it being that difficult - the UK passed a law in 2005 requiring people who did not have Indefinite Leave to Remain to get a fiance visa or a Certificate of Approval in order to get married in the country. Those that were there as tourists must leave and get a fiance visa, those that had Limited Leave To Remain (could include students, people on work visas) had to get the Ccertificate of Approval - and they had to have at least 3 months remaining on LLR in order to qualify. You can apply for soemthing like "Exceptional Compassionate circumstances" if you have some reason that you can not travel, but I don't think that would include failure to rebook a flight after the one you were on was cancelled because of bad weather.

because there are people first of all who cant get visas to come be with their loved one while waiting it out in their own country and the ones who can come easily to visit stay and never go thru seperation. is that fair to the ones who have to wait in line for their day? no of course not.

thats just an excuse this person used for not leaving. not a good enough excuse to cut in line. there would be other days they could leave. just because it didnt happen right now doesnt mean it wouldnt have happened at all.

Yes, I'm aware the UK passed that law. Personally I think it's a bit invasive of personal freedoms. But that's the difference between a constitutional democracy and a parliamentary one. Please don't think I say that as some sort of 'slam' at your government because I happen to think it's a marvelous one. But we both know without the personal protections of a constitution, a parliamentary system can more easily take away individual rights.

There nothing in the US Constitution that says we can marry someone from another country and they can live here. That's not guaranteed and I've made that point many times over. So yes, our legislators would be perfectly able to craft such a law for us.

But I'd hate to see it as I don't think a government makes that type of law for the same reasons readers to this forum would like to see it. I'm fairly confident the law you describe in the UK was created with the intent to keep immigrants out, not couples from 'cutting in line'. It's a dark card, IMO.

How is requiring a fiance visa taking away individual rights and personal freedoms?

The fiance visa requirement came at the same time as extending visas to people in civil partnerships and include homosexual relationships. That's hardly anything to do with "keeping immigrants out." Immigrants were welcome, they just needed the right visa to marry.

Interesting responses.

It's a true story. But I think some of you are assuming what the conclusion was to the story.

It happened to us. But he went home.

I think the reactions here are interesting. Had my husband chosen to stay, his actions would have been fully within what is permissible under the law (as we understand it). Intent to immigrate is about intent at the last entry - not your life plan.

I only brought it up to allow us an enlightened discussion. What we all think or believe or wish may be one thing, but what is permissible under the law may be another. Where does a society that believes in personal liberties and freedoms draw the line?

It's just food for thought. Not an argument.





Are you suggesting to me that the UK also wasn't trying to take care of a little immigration problem while they were at it?

They were probably trying to bring more oversight to prevent fraudulent marriages, yes, but I don't have a problem with that. The requirement is not there to stop people from immigrating to marry.


I know someone who married on VWP to circumvent having to provide a police report (they had minor drugs charges in the UK) required of a K visa. They got through AOS without a hitch and probably got the green card faster than they would had they applied for a K visa, never mind the need to apply for a waiver.

I've bolded your last comment because I agree here that there's some REAL inconsistencies that happen with stateside adjustments that bug me more than 'cutting in line'. You and I may be thinking of the same person - we may not - but it's patently unfair to put visa applicants through the ringer for 'petty crimes' and not even ASK the same questions if they adjust internally. But that's not a law change that is needed - that's a procedural change for USCIS.

As regards eliminating the ability to adjust from the VWP/B2 with the 'real goal' being to curtail fraudulent marriage, personally, I'd rather see our government stick to interviewing VWP/B2 adjustees rather than set ANOTHER bar which couples have to cross if they wish to live here in our country.

And it's the basis of my objection to tourist adjusters. It also makes it more difficult for honest visitors to get tourist visas and increases the likeliness of denials at POE for VWP. Why even have the K visa?

Well, because everyone can't arrive on the VWP or get a tourist visa, I guess.

So you are saying it's the police report that gives you pause? Or other procedures? As I said above, I hear ya loud and clear on the police report.

for example,.. China.. you think a young girl (like my wife) can get a tourist visa now? They block almost 99% of all cases whenever they see a young girl like herself.. she can probably visit other countries beside USA.. maybe we should live elsewhere...I don't care if she comes on a work visa now..

I certainly understand people's complaints about waiting, but unless you really know the situation, to me it's very selfish to judge someone else's position without knowing everything.

The reason I would not feel bad whatsoever about circumventing it is because so many do it. I got this strange look when I told my lawyer and his staff I was filing a K1 rather than doing a tourist visa+marriage+AOS, then he, metaphorically, dusted off the K1 books and we filled one out since I felt the risk, however minute, wasn't worth the negative possibilities. So I decided to go with the K1 and I don't regret it at all. However, others don't have the same issues as I do, and can't wait. Maybe there are issues in the local country which are unbearable.

Then, when I hear people moaning about legality I ask if they've ever jaywalked, if they've ever sped more than 20mph past the speed limit, run a red light, drove illegally in the carpool lane, stolen something valuable (worth more than $200-$400), downloaded something illegally, got in a fight and hurt someone, etc., because all of those are illegal and in some cases have a heavy punishment. Yet I guarantee most if not all have done something illegal, some badly illegal. It isn't that we need to go through the list and say what we have or haven't done (cough), the point is while I may be jealous of those who went the AOS route, I certainly won't look down my nose at them because they weren't a saint about how they filed for it. It's just people trying to be together.

if they come here and fall in love and marry then no visa fraud..........they come here on visitor visa intending to marry then its visa fraud it was thought out in advance and exicuted

it makes it hard on those of us waiting so long trying to get even k1 visa.......perviz comes from a very dangerous area of kashmir so it is not like i dont understand those that want to marry on visitor visa when they come ...i also understand wanting to be with the one u love and thinking the world will surely come to an end if u have to wait so long but it dont ....some couples dont last thru the long process of waiting and who knows maybe perviz and i wont either stress is very hard on any relationship.........but what it does to those that follow those that so freely used the visitor visa for marraige is pretty much shut out the citizens of those countries from receiving visitor visa ......for every action there is a reaction .......and in many cases such as the kashmiri and others from India and many other countries that had a high number of visitor visas where the citizen of that country did not return but found a way to stay in the USA is make it almost impossible for the citizens of that country to receive any kind of visa other than k1 or marraige visa

Sarah, I hear what you are saying and agree that it's prior abuse of the VWP that makes it hard to get visitors visas. I believe Venezuela used to have VWP status but lost the priviledge due to conclusive evidence that it's citizens were abusing it.

I've always been real honest and admitted that Wes and I considered just 'using' the VWP. But we were afraid of being the occasional rare case that an example is made of. There are few couples with a VWP spouse who would be able to tell you they didn't consider the option if they are also honest. It's a temptation and it's out there.

TBH, I never wanted to do anything to jeopardize Wes being able to freely move in and out of the US. I wanted everything we did to protect his status. God forbid our marriage should fall apart, or I should die, and he return to Northern Ireland. If we mishandled his immigration status, he could find trouble in the future. That might sound like negativity, but I don't feel that way.

I think if you abuse the system in any way, you are potentially jeopardizing your foreign-born spouses immigration path. And that ain't love - not in my book.

I know a few people who have done this.My opinion is if you can find a way around all the USCIS's BS,more power to you !

Sorry - do not mean to be picky - but people can come here with intent to marry. No fraud involved. Fraud is involved when one enters as a tourist with intent to marry and adjust.

sorry i guess i thought everyone knew what i was talking about so i didnt put the and adjust

why do people hate when someone else has an easier path then them? This is like hating someone because they won the lottery. So what if they come here on a B1/B2 and get married. The end result is the same, they just don't have to be apart during the process.

IMO the law should be changed to give everyone who applies for a spousal visa a temp visitor visa to stay with their spouse during the immigration process. What benefit is their in making you spend 6 months to a year or more apart waiting on USCIS? It actually might be better for couples to have to live together waiting on USCIS to see if the marriage is going to work or not. It might even give the USC a chance to see for themselves if their spouse is only after a greencard?
They should also change the law for conditional greencard from 2 years to 3 years and then give the choice of applying for citizenship or LPR.

its not about hating someone for doing it this way its about the fact that when countries are able to get visitor visa and then it is used this way after sometime the usa makes it so difficult for any one to get just a visitor visa so that option for citizens of that country is taken away and it makes k1 visa and marraige visa very difficult to get as in long process and embassy's assuming it is fraud before they even get the case

It would only make embassy's suspicious for people applying for a tourist visa, not a k visa or CR1/IR1.

I think it has more to do with human nature that people get mad if they have it harder than someone else.

yes maybe but i for one have never been angry with people that do not have to wait as long as i have........i am happy for them i just dont like it when i see something being abused that will make problems for other people it does not make much sense to abuse something that is in place for visits to ur family that lives in the usa or for touring the usa there are many good people that have never had intent to immigrate to the usa but wish to visit us and have never been able to because of what others did before them................

It's like waiting in a line. There's a lot of the people waiting in the line and someone just comes from the side and cuts in not respecting the line. Some people will tell that person off, some will try to force them to go to the end of the line, and some will shrug their shoulders and say "Oh, whatever".

I hate them.. it's because we have been waiting 14 months already.. that's why.. I don't care if she comes on a work visa.. that's good enough for me now.. I just wanted USCIS to do things in order and not 'skip' people that are waiting for a long time.. If everyone took 2 years , then that's fine by me.. I'll wait my turn.. but the thing is that I ALREADY waited my turn and waited some more too.. well, the lawyers will review the lawsuit now and send it in, and hopefully (they say 60 days) I should hear an answer.. but I already know what it will be... they will use other "rules" to protect themselves..

http://www.ailf.org/lac/clearinghouse_mandamus.shtml (look at all the stupid rules they give to protect themselves)

For example, one person who had won a diversity lottery but didn't get the visa.. they filed a lawsuit the year after saying where it was, and the USCIS said it was "moot" and none of their problem anymore because it had expired.. the time ended at the end of the calendar year..

I want a temp visitor visa for her..

i know u have and i have kept u in my daily prayers i really wish that it would hurry up so that ur s/o can be with u soon.........myself i have decided to skip 4th of july celebrations we filed early enough last year and he should have been here to celebrate them with us but i just have a hard time celebrating something when people like u guys and us are held hostage by the system that took the freedom to marry and live our life in our own country away........there are many more besides us that have been waiting as well.........i cant bring myself to hate those that abuse the system but it is people like that who helped make the very problem we are experiencing because if a country is not easily allowed visitor visa the only other option if they want to come to the states is marraige thats why they look at cases like ours harder........anyways thats my two cents worth on the topic not worth a lot but is how i feel

It isn't people coming here and getting married that cause the concerns of USCIS for a tourist visa, it is the people that come here and stay illegally. The few that come here and marry a USC is a small amount compared to the ones that come here to stay without any way of immigrating legally.

and we get stories like this:

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.d...6300305/-1/news

haha, any opinions on this that's not over the top?? I'm just not going to say anything..



http://www.idexer.com (lots of immigration stories for you to get mad at) because it is not fair to people like us..

Not true, I could have had it "easier" too, I've had several tourist visas for the last 15 years, we could have cut in the line too, some couples that used this shortcut (and that did have intention to apply for AOS prior their entry to the U.S.) told us to do it, after all they got away with it easily! But no, we decided against it. My fiance and I believe in doing what is right.

I'm not upset that some couples had it easier, I'm upset and think its unfair that people are committing visa fraud and getting away with it so easily.

If others had it easier doing the right thing and not breaking the law, then great! good for them! I'm not upset about others getting their visas sooner than we did. But if others have it easier breaking the rules and tricking the system, of course I'm gonna be upset! Its wrong and its unfair!

Don't tell me I should be happy when someone tells me "No, applying for a K-1 does not suit our wedding plans, so we are going to use her B-2". That is BS! Applying for a K-1 did not suit ANY of our wedding plans or moving arrangements and we did it anyway, because it was the right thing to do! As I'm sure applying for a K-1 and putting their lives on hold for 6 or 9 months, and in some cases for more than one year, did not suit ANY of the other VJers plans either! Complying with the law is not an option and this man (the one that I was talking about on my first post) goes on and on telling me that he thinks the immigration system was designed to keep him away from the love of his life, so he does not think he is doing anything wrong by committing visa fraud! Because in the first place, he does not agree with the immigration laws! What the heck???!!! So breaking a law that you disagree with makes it OK?! Talk about ignorance and stupidity!

I do not believe it would be fair to prevent B-2 holders to apply for AOS, as I believe there might some (very few, IMO) who did not have prior intention to marry AND immigrate using their B-2. But the USCIS should definitely subject B-2 holders who change their status to more scrutinity.

The end result *isn't* the same. It's a question of getting married in the US, applying for AOS, and waiting 3-6 months in general for the green card, vs having to go through a consulate that has completely opaque policies (eg Morocco or Egypt), can deny your petition without giving any more information about the denial other than vague explanations, does not answer the phone or respond to emails, can refuse your attempts to offer additional information, and can then send your application back to the US. Just sending the application back can take several months, then there is a month-long to years-long wait for the petition to be re-adjudicated in the US, during which time no information can be had about your case. How can you compare these two cases? Also the issue of past legal issues being circumvented doesn't seem to be the same end result; one person is denied while the other breezes into the US and gets married.

Just because it's *legal* doesn't make it right. And why are overstays forgiven if you marry an American? You can stay here for years illegally, not paying taxes, doing whatever you want as long as you don't get caught (though if you were caught you would go to immigration court and be deportable), but then you get married and declare yourself and your location to the government, and all of a sudden instead of being deported you're rewarded with a green card. I feel these policies should be revisited.

My wife also has had her tourist visa her entire life before we met. We did not use it and followed the rules and waiting through the processing. I am just saying I think the laws should change and allow spouses to be together during the process. What is the harm in this?

You are comparing apples to oranges. There is nothing illegal about winning the lottery, is it? Getting upset over something like that would be stupid! DOn't you think?

The result is DEFINITELY NOT the same, but the above poster has already explained it very well, so I wont repeat it. If you don't see the difference.. then I rest my case!

I don't hate people who commit visa fraud, I'd have to hate my own friends.. I have 1 good friend who did this and 2 other college classmates who did it too. They all passed their AOS interviews very easily! It's upsetting because it is unfair.

The end result of getting a green card is the same, wouldn't you rather have the whole process take place while they are here with you and processed at a local office where you can go and supply any additional information as needed?

But wouldn't you rather the laws change to allow you to be together during the process rather than changing the law to not allow anyone to adjust status in the US?

That could be a good idea, but I'm sure it implies extreme changes and it would be very unlikely to happen

Did your wife visit you while you guys were waiting? I know that K-1 holders (me included) were able to visit while their K-1 was processing but had never heard of a K-3 beneficiary visiting with a B-2?

I also read your review about the POE! SO true!!! I always did good when I entered through Chicago and had an american CBP officer, but my experiences going through Houston were not so nice!

Yes, you are right in that part.. The end result (GC) is the same. You can get it legally or illegally. Your point was justifying the illegal way though, and that's why girls reacted. Your idea is a good one, changing the laws so people waiting for K visas could wait in the USA with their partners and not be apart, and it would be great if such idea would be implemented one day! The right way to do it isn't breaking the law, but talking to people who matter and who can make such changes.

Let's compare it to the lottery that has already been brought up. I can get 5 million dollars by winning the lottery, or by robbing the bank. Winning the lottery is legal. Robbing the bank, obviously, isn't. The fact that the end result is the same (I get more money than I know what to do with) doesn't mean that both ways to reach that result are okay.