I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that meeting.

people should not be able to adjust status from a visitor visa. there are visa's for this reason. we all know by reading visa journy how many people have came and asked "can i marry her while she is here visiting" so u know how many are premedating this route. all we can say is yes, but dont let them know this was the intention.

its not a life or death situation that people have to go back and wait it out until their fiance or spousal visa is issued...they just dont want to be apart and thats it.

I have never read this as a suggestion here. Members really hammer home that intention to immigrate (ie: intend to enter, marry, and adjust) with a tourist visa is fradulant.

LAL YOU MAY NOT ADVOCATE IT AND THAT IS GOOD OR RIGHT THING TO DO THAT YOU DO NOT. BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY, MANY ON VJ THAT DO AND HAVE ADVOCATED IT WILLFULLY.

DONNA A IS RIGHT IN EVERYTHING SHE SAYS.

I've just come into this thread, but I absolutely HATE when I hear of people intentionally committing fraud in order to skip the legal process. I can see a LOT of holes in the system and K1 was never in my best interests; it means waiting for YEARS apart while I finish school, we get the fees together and the appropriate income, wait for an approval, wait for a medical test and interview... but we decided to do it the right way.

I don't think people should be allowed to simply adjust after marrying in the US... I believe they should be subjected to the same process as everyone else who wants the same thing.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for couples to unintentionally fall in love and want to get married, and I know that it has happened to people here; but that love is just as unplanned as the love we ALL have to our fiancee/spouse. None of us planned to fall in love and leave our lives behind for it... that's the entire point of the process, to prove that we have a bonafide relationship and no alternative motives. If people fall in love unintentionally while in the US, they should have to leave before their overstay occurs, and apply for the same things we all have to.

Why should we have to suffer the years and the fees and the distance because we realised we wanted to get married JUST before we entered the US rather than already being in it?

It's like a half-assed "well you're here now, might as well stay".

I am sorry that you feel that anyone doing AOS after entering with no intent to stay and they are on a Tourist Visa or VWP should be sent home and have to apply for a K1, K3/CR1. I thank god that people who enter with no intent ARE allowed to File for AOS and remain here while it is being processed.

The law allows for people to do this and Kezzie and I used this option that was available to us so that She did not have to go back to Scotland. I for one would never encourage anyone to plan to commit visa fraud by entering with intent to remain, but if like us you find yourself wanting to get married and you are already here in the US and you wish to stay then there is a legal option that allows you to AOS without having to return to your home country then who would not take it. its not cheating the system, its not wrong, its not jumping the line, IT IS A LEGAL OPTION.

Jon

Just about sums it up really. Fair play to those who can exploit legal loopholes, I say. If the lawmakers have a problem with that, then they need to amend their laws, don't they..................

I understand why you took advantage of the loophole, I really do. It makes it so much easier.

I just don't like how it's so EASY to commit fraud with a loophole like that.

I could have very easily just stayed in the US last summer, gotten married and then adjusted status, whether I had intentions of it beforehand or not. Because it's that easy, no one has to know anything that was inside my head. I was enrolled in university for another two years at that point too so that makes it look as though it was unintentional.

However, since I then left the US, WITH the intention of still wanting to get married, that means I have to wait out an entire visa process BEFORE being allowed to simply adjust status. Who's to say that I can't just skip the entire K1 (that isn't yet filed), marry on my next visit (while I'm still enrolled in school for another year), adjust status and claim that it was a spur of the moment decision? The only difference between me and someone that skipped the K1 is that they didn't realise they wanted to get married before entering the US.

I understand why couples take advantage of the legal route, but they really need to justify why it's allowed to happen when others are made to wait just because they're not yet in the US.

Are you responding to the previous poster or to me, the OP?

Of course it is legal to adjust your status if there was no intent when you entered the U.S., that is not the subject of the discussion here.

I just want to make clear AGAIN, that my intention was to discuss about people who openly commit visa fraud by using an immigrant visa with the PRIOR intention to immigrate. I

Read the history of John and Kezzie before you call infer they are fraudsters or rip into them about 'using' a loophole. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Just because somebody didn't 'suffer' as much as you did during immigration doesn't mean you have to be pi$$ed off about the process. Nobody took your cookie.

All it takes is about 30 minutes of me reading around this place before I'm reminded why it's not worth my time to post here any longer. What a bunch of whining dolts.

Quick to judge, are we? Do you even know Kezzie and Jon's story???? VJ Sheesh
Pray that you don't have to go through what they did, and if you do, may god and your friends and family love you as much as we do them.
Peace out.

I'm no different than ANYONE else in this thread, or the forums for that matter, that has complained about the process at one point or another. I'm no different than ANYONE else that has suggested there be something to trap the people that DO wish to commit fraud.

As for not having a right to be pissed off because I've "suffered" and "nobody took my cookie"; this wasn't even about ME, it was about people that are affected by holes in the system. I gave an example by showing how easy it could be for me to commit fraud, and that was the point of my post. It was my opinion that this hole made it possible for people to intentionally use the legal route to immigrate and commit fraud, NOT that it was wrong for people to fall in love and adjust status whilst there.

Why is everyone jumping on MY ### when there have been several people in this topic arguing that the entire notion of adjusting whilst there should be scrapped and/or made more fair? I NEVER said that Jon/Kezzie committed fraud, in fact I even said I understand why they used that option available to them. I never once implied that they were fraudsters and I never once made it personal. I was talking about the SYSTEM, not the individual people that have adjusted status while in the US, just like everyone else in this topic arguing for that side.

I'd also like to point out that I didn't know the details of their personal story before, as my post wasn't about their story, and after reading it, my heart really goes out to everyone affected. I tremendously hope that everyone is pulling through as best as possible, and I'm sorry to anyone that I might have offended. However, I would like to repeat that I never made this about them personally, and I'm not the first person on VJ to make a generic claim/statement without knowing the full details of someone's individual experience. Isn't that being "quick to judge" as well? Also, how often do people on VJ complain about the whole process, or others being approved before them, or this country being easier, or whatever else? Do you want to go and jump on them as well because they were ignorant to someone else's personal history?

Gemmie, you posted your feelings and you are entitled to your opinion the same as anyone else. I think there has to be a law allowing for people to change their minds when entering on a tourist visa or VWP, I knew my Kez all my life and always hoped that one day she would see me as more than just a lifelong family friend. I know many couples who have married on a tourist visa because of a change in events while they were here.

There will always be people who abuse the system and appear to get away with it and yes this whole process can be frustrating for anyone going through it. God I know how frustrated I was hoping and praying that Kez would get her 10 year Greencard before she died,we had to sit and watch others in diffrent service centers get approved way before her and then watch as 100s of cases were transfered to VSC and were being worked on first, I know she wished to be able to file for Citizenship but she did not live long enough to file.

We never had any regrets about doing our visa journey the way we did it, it was an option that was available to us and we took it, it could be said that because I had thoughts about marriage to Kez there was intent, she once told me that she herself had thought about us ending up married at some time in our lives. So if thats all it takes to have intent then We both are guilty.

Do I regrent the way we did things or feel that we cheated, or jumped the line. HELL NO, I would do it all over again in a heartbeat.


Jon

I've sent you a reply to your inbox, Jon.

Basically, I have NO problem with people that genuinely do not look to cheat the system (like Jon and Kez). It's the fraudsters that I do have a problem with, same as everyone else.

I hope people aren't as quick to attack in future with assumptions that personal issues were involved.

Sorry Rebecca, but why are you still posting then? Do yourself a favor and stop reading this thread if it bothers you that much.

Geez!

Using the excuse that you aren't the 'first person' to make the same mistake hardly makes the commentary any less offensive. Let this be a lesson to you and all reading that every case is different. There are always details we don't know. Generic opinions about certain immigration paths are not only unfair but they are wrong, IMO.

Yes people on VJ complain about the whole process; about others being approved before them; or about other countries being easier. Those comments are usually made out of either ignorance of the process or unwillingness to learn. They are also often made by persons who believe that the only path to life in the US is the same 'high road' they themselves took. Not a very charitable attitude, in my book. It also displays complete ignorance of the law.





Kezzie was my friend. We journeyed together. If you don't freaking mind, I think I'll state my piece and state it freely. If you dont' like it, then maybe you are the one who shouldn't be reading.

Please re-read my post.

Where did I say you should not post whatever you want? Or you should not stand up for your friends?

YOU said it's not worth your time posting here, yet you keep on coming back and posting some more. Why are you still wasting your time? That was my question

No, I don't freaking mind. But don't come here on your high horse to tell us what a waste it is to post here while you keep on doing it.

Eric -

When you've been able to truly post in the upper forums with legitimate, right on advice which actually helps people in their visa journey, rather than whining down here in the lower forums, then you can feel free to ask me about my 'high horse'.

It seems alot of people here cry if someone's process is faster then theirs or easier. I guess they feel like someone cut in line or something. If anything they should complain to their elected officials to figure out a way to allow their loved ones to be in the US during the process. Tourist visas don't require all the background checks so who cares if they allowed spouses to come here and wait through the process. Just develop a system to send them back if they are not approved. They need this system in place anyway to deal with tourist visa overstays anyway. We should fight to make everyones process easier rather than argue that everyone should have eaqually long, difficult waits.

I'm not Eric. I'm Teresa.

If I think something its unfair, you can be sure I'll say it as MANY times as I want. Committing visa fraud and getting away with it is UNFAIR in my book. I'll post about here in the "lower forums" and anywhere else if I have the chance. And if that is whining to you, then too bad.

You are not even a lawyer, but you have definitely pick the arrogant style many lawyers have.

I've been posting for over 2 years and I think I've posted MANY legitimate advice and helped others. Its not your job to be calling up on that.

You still haven't answered why are you still wasting your time here, in the "lower forums", lecturing us ignorants of the law.

When has anyone said that? When did anyone say we should all have difficulties and wait longer?

there are plenty of people on vj that think everyone should have to wait out of the US during the process because they had to wait.

Teresa - Yes you can post all you like, as many times as you like, about the commission of 'fraud'.

Whether or not you are correct in your interpretation, however, is a horse of a different color.

After two years of posting and helping others, I'm somewhat amazed you haven't come to that conclusion by now.

Come on folks lets try to retain a higher level of respect for each other. Thanks.

Well that's the thing, my commentary had no reason to be offensive. I never said anything personal about Kez, I was stating an opinion about whether the law should be changed and the negative impact that it has, as well as the positive. I didn't do anything different than anyone else stating their opinion on the matter, only because I happened to respond to Jon (again, not even in a personal way, it was about the system), you jump all over me claiming that I'm accusing them of being fraudsters when I specifically said that I had no problem with them doing what they did.

I understand that Kez was your friend and that your journey together must have created a special bond between you; and also why you would find it extremely offensive if you see someone attacking her. However, I did nothing of the sort.

Teresa has every right to post her thoughts that committing visa fraud is unfair (which is all she has said) and if you think they're wrong, fair enough. But no one was belittlling any advice that you have given over the years before you jumped on that one either. Believe it or not, I do have a high level of respect for people like yourself that have coped throughout WHATEVER personal journey you have had to make while still offering help to others.

I agree.

Some people here are mad at the fact that people under WVP should have to leave if they want to marry..why???

The fact is that the countries under the WVP have less inmigrants here in the US. Most Europeans will stay in Europe than come here to the US. The truth of the matter is tighter enforcement policies have to apply with countries that inmigrate on a daily basis here to the US. Countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa have alot of people applying to come here legally and too many come illegally.

If you come on a B1/B2 should you have to leave if you fall in love? is that really fair? It's not a bypass of the law or a loophole it's just a process.

No, of course you should not leave to get married if you were already here and then decided to get married. We are not discussing that here. I'm not against people who were here on a B-2 or student visa or work visas and fell in love and decided to stay. I'm against of those who were fully aware that they will have to lie at the POE saying "i came to visit" when they knew, they were coming to get married AND apply for AOS. I'm talking about people who sell their properties, before "visiting" on a B-2, quit their jobs, made all kind of arrangements because they knew they were immigrating to the U.S.

Please read my original post again, I've explained it countless times through out this whole thread. I'm not against everyone who got married on a B-2 and applied for AOS. I'm against couples who were fully aware of the fact that they were committing visa fraud and they got away with it! The couple I was talking about on my original thread made plans ahead to use the B-2 to marry in the U.S. and apply for AOS before entering the country, just because the K-1 did not suit their personal plans.

I've known 4 cases that did this, and YES it was Visa Fraud and they got away with it!These were couples who were close to me (3 college friends and 1 co-worker) and I know they sold their houses, sold their cars, gave away their pets, quit their jobs and made all the arrangements here before they traveled with the B-2. They arrived at the POE and they said "I came to do some shopping, I came to a work meeting, I came to visit my aunt, etc, etc". They lied and got away with it.

I don't know about EVERY single couple who applied for AOS while on a B-2 but I know that for these 4 couples and the one from my original post it was visa fraud, and that is what I've been saying its UNFAIR.

Many things in life are unfair.

Just how would you suggest USCIS sift the wheat from the chaff? How do they ascertain who 'lied' and who didn't?

If there is going to be flexibility for those who did not 'lie', how should the 'loophole' be closed against those who do 'lie' without hurting those who didn't 'lie'?

And just what is a 'lie' anyway? As Jon said, some could say he and Kez had 'intent'.






I think you should carefully re-read what you originally wrote. Especially the part where you spoke to John about he and K using the 'loophole'. Rather condescending in my opinion.

O/T Hi there RebeccaJo! Glad to see you back.

You mean where I said "I understand why you took advantage of the loophole, I really do. It makes it so much easier. I just don't like how it makes it so easy to commit fraud with a loophole like that."

Nothing there is implying that Jon and Kez committed fraud themselves. I even followed that up with examples of how one could use the option to commit fraud.

I even sent Jon a message to let him know that I meant nothing personal since others had taken it that way and that I have no problem with the route they took, because they were genuine, i. e, not committing visa fraud. If it's the term "loophole" that is the issue, well I'm sorry that you took such offense at a term often used to describe an option that jumps around an unwanted outcome. (loop·hole n. 1. A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.) - I never disagreed that this was a LEGAL OPTION, or claimed that it was wrong to use this if you are genuinely in love whilst in the US. I was just pointing out the negative side of it.

My intention was never to attack others, and I haven't done so, even when others were quick to snap off their own judgemental lines about what I was implying.

Anyway, getting this back on topic...

There are people that are going to be hurt no matter what. If the legal option remains, people will get to be with their loved ones in the US while they adjust their status and that's fantastic... however, it opens up the door for fraudsters that had every intent to lie at the POE and immigrate. If the legal option is banned, it might make it harder to premeditate a short-cut, though couples will be forced to be seperated. Perhaps with some kind of regulation, there can be a balance, though how they can do that, I'm not sure. As I said earlier, it's hard to prove/disprove something that may or may not be in your intentions/thoughts.

Here is what I find interesting. People wax on about how unfair it is for the loophole to exist, then to clarify that its more of a matter of "fraudsters" (not just you Gemmie). If the concenr is fraud, I jut don't see it. Look at the countries who use VWP. Getting a family based visa to immigrate from most of those places is simply a formality.

Does it suck that the US takes in fraudsters? Sure - but look at any situation in which a USC was applying for a visa only to have their SO move here, and then they figure out how used they were. Sunshine & roses during separation and feeling as though the government is keeping them apart (some with very difficult journeys), then only to be deserted once they step foot in the US. Point being - fraud will happen regardless. Stopping this one "loophole" isn't going to reduce fraud by much if at all and is simply a drop in the bucket, not to mention that if you are here on a VWP the adjustee is from a "friendly" country or if on a B2 they had their background checked - doesn't seem to be too much worry in those individuals.

So closing this loophole would do what, exactly? I guess it would stop much complaining about what people feel is jumping in line.

Hi Everyone,

Hmmm..From personal experience: Does being questioned at the border for 2 hours or so be considered scrutiny? What a nightmare that was, indeed, when all I wanted to do was only to visit my boyfriend/fiancee (now husband) at that time. When I came over the border from Canada on a B2 Visa, we did not have any prior intention to marry and it was last-minute that we decided to get married here in the US during that visit. For me, the thought of going back to Canada wasn't an option, more so realizing how much I missed my husband at times we were apart, and especially after how they poorly treated us at the border. Needless to say, it was the right decision for us to do the B2 to AOS, and I don't regret it and I don't see that it's illegal. Yes, along the way we did have many immigration hardships and sacrifices too, but it was worth it in the end. Most importantly, the happy ending of this experience: we're still happily married and happily living together legally in the US now, even though we had to go through the "shortcut" (though I didn't think it was a shortcut) route to get to this point.

Ant

Kezzie was just about one of THE most honest people here on VJ. To even speak her name in a sentence connected with visa fraud is offensive.

Just my 2cents.

Well then you'll be glad I never did that, only when defending myself by saying she was NOT a fraudster.

If that's not okay either, than I quit right here.

Hear hear, Sian.

And I don't care how somebody waffles about using the word 'loophole'. If a person can't see that as offensive, then they have a problem.

I was just stating my own point of view - one that is shared by many here.

nowhere has gemmie ever said anything bad about Kez

I agree with Marilyn. I read and re read this thread and what Gemmie said, and she didn't say anything bad about K. The point as I understood it was made that people use a method of adjusting status after marrying spur of the moment. This method is not illegal- nor was what Gemmie said a comment on J or K personally. It's obvious neither one are fraudsters; K's entry to the US was perfectly legitimate, anyone that's been on VJ for longer than 5 minutes knows that.
I do believe the reaction to Gemmie may have come from bereaving the loss of a friend; which in itself is understandable, but irrelevant to the topic as K/J committed no fraud and Gemmie did not accuse them of such.

I had thought it stemmed from this initial comment in response to Jon:

yes but I don't think she intended to imply anything bad...

Well, OK. Maybe the use of the word "loophole" has negative connotations; and sent this thread into something it's not. It's not a "loophole"....But I don't think that Gemmie was saying they " were fraudulent" and J's response to her was crystal clear, it's a legal avenue that anyone is able to utilize if they marry spur-of-the moment.

Probably not - but between the other comments made and suggestion that this loophole makes it so much easier - one could interpret this as - another one skipped in line. Anyway - I really have no dog in this piece of the discussion.

I just wanted to ask you... were you ever questioned if you had intent to immigrate when you arrived on B-2 during your AOS interview? I'm curious to know because I've read other reviews on the AOS sub-forum of adjusting fron other visa types, and some have mentioned that they were never questioned about their intent when they entered the U.S.

When I said more scrutinity I meant during the AOS interview, not at the POE. I know its not fun to be questioned at the POE. I've been through that many times, and you are right it is a very unpleasent experience. I believe its because CBP officers work under the premise of "guilty until proven innocent", every alien is presumed to have immigration intent until you prove otherwise. The funny thing is that for B-2 holders that apply for AOS, that seems to work the other way around during the AOS interview.

My conclusion to all this, is that the USCIS has many other things to worry about that they don't really care if people use a B-2 to immigrate, in this type of cases.

As for Gemmie's reply to Jon, she already sent a PM, she has already said she was not accusing him/them of committing visa fraud. What else do you expect her to do? Apologize to each one of you for this terrible offense? Not even Jon himself took it as bad you did! So, come on... get over it!

I know you're not asking me, but often I have read of anecdotal experiences with this sort of adjustment and the majority of members stated they were not asked about their intent at the border. I suppose this means they proved their intent at the border, period. I would agree with you (and actually I stated something very similar) that USCIS has other worries than the VWP/B2, etc adjustees.

As far as Gemmie's statement, response and PM - we are just commenting - not railing anyone, not outraged, etc. Just discussing where it could have been perceived as backhanded. So nothing to get over IMHO.

I was looking for your post where you said that on this thread and I could not find it! But yeah, I agree with you on that. I think the USCIS its ok with B-2 holders immigrating as long as they regularize their status after marriage.

About Gemmie, I think that she has already explained more than once that she did not mean to sound offensive to Jon, so there is no point to keep pointing out that it did sound offensive, especially when Jon did not even pay much attention to it.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=2089925

When I said "the loophole makes it so much easier", I meant that the option takes away being forced to leave the US, spending several months away from each other and having to apply for a visa. Not that adjusting whilst in the US is easy in itself.

Nothing is good enough in this case though because personal feelings are involved. Even when I explained that I wasn't accusing anyone here of fraud, it was the term that I used that became offensive, and when I explained how the term wasn't meant to be, I was told even mentioning a name in the same sentence (no matter what the context!) was offensive. I do agree with tmma that it was more the reaction of experiencing the loss of a friend, which is understandable, as I can see how close people were to this person.

I find it interesting that so many times on VJ, expressing your negative thoughts and feelings is often encouraged; the immigration process is a downer and can be shared by others going through a similar thing - but you do so in response to a specific poster and game over, no matter what the intent.

So many times we see people coming on to rant about not recieving their NOA, having to wait much longer at their service centre, officers losing important documents, being judged by governmental officials, others being approved before them, being apart from their loved one on special occasions, frustrations with adjusting, the list goes on... we do this with ignorance to some extent of others' situations and I have to say it, I LOVE that VJ allows people to complain about such things, otherwise we would all go crazy with frustration and/or helplessness! None of this is personal when we complain, because the enemy here is the system and the hardships that we must all endure to be with our loved ones.

Hi eric_and_teresa,



In answer to your question:



As I said before, I was questioned under scrutiny for 2hrs when I arrived at the border/POE on a B-2 Visa. And it certainly didn’t help either that we had a full carload of mainly/mostly my husband’s (not mine) personal belongings at that time when we crossed over then. It was definitely an unpleasant experience at that time when we crossed over. What a nice way to say “Welcome to America. Enjoy your visit.” indeed! Since then, other than that one time, I’ve had no problems crossing back and forth over the Canadian/American border, especially now that I have my green card when I cross back home into the USA. Even when I went back to Canada a few months later, after I got my green card, with a full carload of my personal belongings to bring back to the USA, I didn’t have problems then either.



As for the AOS interview, in contrast, I was surprised that they never asked us about my intent to immigrate on a B-2 visa, even though I thought beforehand that they would ask that then. The AOS interview for us lasted about 10-15 minutes or so, and the few questions they asked were more so about our relationship/marriage and other issues. Funny thing though, at the AOS interview, the Immigration Officer did ask, “Since you came over from Canada, why did you get a B-2 Visa for your short-term visit here?” (as Canadians are exempt from getting visitor’s visas when crossing over to the US and commonly travel over the border at that location without passports or visas at all). And I replied back, “I don’t know, you tell me. I just gave them my Canadian passport to show as identification for my visit here, and I was issued and stamped with a B-2 Visa in it.” And to this day, I still don’t know why I got that B-2 Visa stamp in my Canadian passport, though the stamp there makes for an interesting souvenir of that nightmare-ish experience I had that day.



And yes, maybe in the end, as you said, “the USCIS has many other things to worry about that they don't really care if people use a B-2 to immigrate, in this type of cases.”



Good luck with your immigration journey too, eric_and_teresa.



Ant

Thank you!