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VisaJourney.com > General Family Based Immigration Topics > US Citizenship General Discussion

jumper8
This forum seem to have lots of folks who know how the system work.I have a question that have been troubling me since I have applied for citizenship...My application is already sent,and waiting for interview.

When I first arrived to the U.S,I went to get my driver license and they automatically registered me to vote.I had no idea I was registered until I recieved a letter in the mail about my voter's card...
In missouri,driving test is performed by the highway patrol,and they issue you a passing grade document(if you pass) which one takes it to a state contracted office that prints out the driver license. In my case at this office,they never asked me if I was a citizen or not,and then registered me to vote.

So I know you have to be US citizen to vote,and I have read dozen of case where citizenship applicants actually voted and were denied or put under removal proceedings when they told that to the officer at the time of interview in violation of:
INA sec 237(a)(6)(A)

1.is there a difference between "registering to vote" and "actually voting"...because "only" registering to vote,I can see that one can be found "falsely claiming" US citizenship,but "voting" is "voting fraud + falsely claiming US citizenship."
I heard that they usually dont deny if someone only registered to vote,but never voted because sometimes,new immigrants make innocent mistakes,and people usually can pretty much get registered to vote walking down the street since there is usually voter registration drive going on....and most of the time,US citizens themselves are confused as to who can and cannot register to vote or vote!!!

2.I read someone online that some told INS officer about "only registering to vote" and were only asked to remove their name from the voter's list and they would be fine since they did not actually voted....

Do someone here have any experience with this situation?...

I was only registered to vote without my knowledge(and more importantly never voted) and I thought then that, if you dont vote,they will automtically remove you from the list,but they sent me the voters card a year ago...I have already sent them a letter to take my name off the list.....


NickD
Ah, 50 states, and 50 different sets of regulations, state statues, and practices, one thing I did love about being in our military is that we were just one country for a change. What happened to you won't even come close to the laws in our state, voter registration is completely separate from the DMV. Ha, today couldn't even get my wife's DL renewed as she had an expired green card, and what in the hell is a one year extension notice. But I got on my governor's back to correct that. She still is paying taxes.

Most of these crazy agencies were started under Nixon, he was a pardoned proven crook, but the agencies are still here and can tell you by experience, these agencies simply do not mistakes, even if taken to a court of law, the bias is there toward the agencies. That is unless you are really a huge corporation with a huge staff of top attorneys. If the USCIS does make an error on your green card, it is up to you to point it out and get it corrected, if you don't, you will pay the penalty. Feel the same is true about your voters registration, you do admit to knowing about this error, therefore it is up to you to get it corrected. Even ignorance is no forgiveness for not knowing the law, and in this case, you do know the law.

I would take immediate steps to get that corrected whether you vote or not, really no record if you vote or not, and the seriousness of even a proposed of false voter registration can get you deported.

Can always contact an immigration attorney for better advice on this subject, I just don't like leaving anything to chance. The only person that can lose on this is you.
zyggy
You need to talk with an immigration attorney about this... But typically most voter resigtration forms have an affidavit on them that states that that the person filling out and signing the form swears that they are a US Citizen... but making a false statement of citizenship is a deportable offense.
jumper8
QUOTE(zyggy @ May 12 2008, 10:28 AM) *
You need to talk with an immigration attorney about this... But typically most voter resigtration forms have an affidavit on them that states that that the person filling out and signing the form swears that they are a US Citizen... but making a false statement of citizenship is a deportable offense.


I know most votre registration have the box which says "you confirm that you're a US citizen"...in my case,I never filled out the form...You have to remember also that many voter regitrations that goes on campus only just ask students to submit their name/date of birth/last 4 SSN...

I think this may come down to the interviewer's judge on my character....
TayRivers
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 12:33 PM) *
QUOTE(zyggy @ May 12 2008, 10:28 AM) *
You need to talk with an immigration attorney about this... But typically most voter resigtration forms have an affidavit on them that states that that the person filling out and signing the form swears that they are a US Citizen... but making a false statement of citizenship is a deportable offense.


I know most votre registration have the box which says "you confirm that you're a US citizen"...in my case,I never filled out the form...You have to remember also that many voter regitrations that goes on campus only just ask students to submit their name/date of birth/last 4 SSN...

I think this may come down to the interviewer's judge on my character....


The interviewer's hands are tied. The law states that if you have registered to vote then your application for Citizenship will be denied and you will be deportable.

You need to seek a immigration lawyer to help you sort this out if you are to have any chance of becoming a Citizen or notbeing deportable.
churipu
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 05:16 AM) *
This forum seem to have lots of folks who know how the system work.I have a question that have been troubling me since I have applied for citizenship...My application is already sent,and waiting for interview.

When I first arrived to the U.S,I went to get my driver license and they automatically registered me to vote.I had no idea I was registered until I recieved a letter in the mail about my voter's card...
In missouri,driving test is performed by the highway patrol,and they issue you a passing grade document(if you pass) which one takes it to a state contracted office that prints out the driver license. In my case at this office,they never asked me if I was a citizen or not,and then registered me to vote.

So I know you have to be US citizen to vote,and I have read dozen of case where citizenship applicants actually voted and were denied or put under removal proceedings when they told that to the officer at the time of interview in violation of:
INA sec 237(a)(6)(A)

1.is there a difference between "registering to vote" and "actually voting"...because "only" registering to vote,I can see that one can be found "falsely claiming" US citizenship,but "voting" is "voting fraud + falsely claiming US citizenship."
I heard that they usually dont deny if someone only registered to vote,but never voted because sometimes,new immigrants make innocent mistakes,and people usually can pretty much get registered to vote walking down the street since there is usually voter registration drive going on....and most of the time,US citizens themselves are confused as to who can and cannot register to vote or vote!!!

2.I read someone online that some told INS officer about "only registering to vote" and were only asked to remove their name from the voter's list and they would be fine since they did not actually voted....

Do someone here have any experience with this situation?...

I was only registered to vote without my knowledge(and more importantly never voted) and I thought then that, if you dont vote,they will automtically remove you from the list,but they sent me the voters card a year ago...I have already sent them a letter to take my name off the list.....


Part 10, section A question nr 2 of the N400 form clearly asks "Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?" while the following question nr 3 asks if you actually ever voted...you are also asked at the Interview again about this, so I tend to think they are probably both equally bad things. Granted I am no expert so what I saw might be totally wrong, I do also tend to think your bona fide must play a role in this, but still it sounds like you're better off asking someone who is legally savvy about this and might help you work it out.
They appearently take this stuff very very seriously...
jumper8
QUOTE(churipu @ May 12 2008, 12:00 PM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 05:16 AM) *
This forum seem to have lots of folks who know how the system work.I have a question that have been troubling me since I have applied for citizenship...My application is already sent,and waiting for interview.

When I first arrived to the U.S,I went to get my driver license and they automatically registered me to vote.I had no idea I was registered until I recieved a letter in the mail about my voter's card...
In missouri,driving test is performed by the highway patrol,and they issue you a passing grade document(if you pass) which one takes it to a state contracted office that prints out the driver license. In my case at this office,they never asked me if I was a citizen or not,and then registered me to vote.

So I know you have to be US citizen to vote,and I have read dozen of case where citizenship applicants actually voted and were denied or put under removal proceedings when they told that to the officer at the time of interview in violation of:
INA sec 237(a)(6)(A)

1.is there a difference between "registering to vote" and "actually voting"...because "only" registering to vote,I can see that one can be found "falsely claiming" US citizenship,but "voting" is "voting fraud + falsely claiming US citizenship."
I heard that they usually dont deny if someone only registered to vote,but never voted because sometimes,new immigrants make innocent mistakes,and people usually can pretty much get registered to vote walking down the street since there is usually voter registration drive going on....and most of the time,US citizens themselves are confused as to who can and cannot register to vote or vote!!!

2.I read someone online that some told INS officer about "only registering to vote" and were only asked to remove their name from the voter's list and they would be fine since they did not actually voted....

Do someone here have any experience with this situation?...

I was only registered to vote without my knowledge(and more importantly never voted) and I thought then that, if you dont vote,they will automtically remove you from the list,but they sent me the voters card a year ago...I have already sent them a letter to take my name off the list.....


Part 10, section A question nr 2 of the N400 form clearly asks "Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?" while the following question nr 3 asks if you actually ever voted...you are also asked at the Interview again about this, so I tend to think they are probably both equally bad things. Granted I am no expert so what I saw might be totally wrong, I do also tend to think your bona fide must play a role in this, but still it sounds like you're better off asking someone who is legally savvy about this and might help you work it out.
They appearently take this stuff very very seriously...


Hey I think you maybe right..but if we consider the question of "have you ever failed to file taxes" vs. "Do you ever owe any taxes"....failing to file taxes is not necessary a violation so long as you don't owe taxes....and it could be that someone made less that the required income to file for taxes...

I hope I find somoene with this same experience to get a feel of what they went thru...
NickD
I only been dealing with the USCIS for five years now, ha, would have never have except for meeting the gal of my most wildest dreams in a foreign country. Just from reading the context of the forms, didn't take too long to realize that I am presumed guilty of some pretty major crimes until I prove myself innocent. And apparently no correlation exists between the USCIS and my state that has it's own set of rules. Our state is so strict on even granting a marriage license having to provide a stack of proof that we are eligible to even get married, the similar USCIS proof was simple. Even commented that maybe we should get married in a different state, can't do that, as long as I have residence here, could get fined 10,000 bucks and spend a year in jail by doing so.

Point is, the state doesn't care what the feds are doing and the feds don't care what the state is doing, so if your state does provide you with voter registration, don't expect any understanding from the USCIS. I would go back to your DMV and get that corrected, now.

Just on the news this morning that over 288,000 rebate checks have been blocked by the IRS, mostly military that married foreign spouses and either failed to provide their spouses SS number or never applied to immigration so their spouses could have a valid SS number, that is going to cost them and may lead to a further investigation.

Ha, Missouri sounds like a cool state, my step daughter just applied for college and when she couldn't provide a US birth certificate wanted to see a valid current green card that she had. They made a copy of that for their records, only then could she enroll. We are in WI, a rather strict state to live in. Ha, really didn't have to sign that I-864 either, if our marriage did end in divorce would have to pay child support payments for my step daughter and alimony to my wife. But the USCIS doesn't care at all about state laws, just their own laws.
lucyrich
You're on dangerous ground, and you'd be wise to seek the advice of an attorney.

You may also want to look at what the interviewer will be using for guidance. See the AFM 74.2(g) (available from the USCIS here).

Also note Appendix 74-10 and Appendix 74-9

My reading (and I'm NOT an attorney) is that you really need to be worried about actually having voted in an election, and about ever having claimed to be a US Citizen. If you have registered to vote but haven't ever claimed to be a US Citizen or voted in an election, you might be alright. If you signed voter registration paperwork that included a claim of citizenship, even though you didn't read what you signed, you may be in serious trouble.

Again, I'd talk to an attorney to sort it all out.
jumper8
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 12 2008, 05:32 PM) *
You're on dangerous ground, and you'd be wise to seek the advice of an attorney.

You may also want to look at what the interviewer will be using for guidance. See the AFM 74.2(g) (available from the USCIS here).

Also note Appendix 74-10 and Appendix 74-9

My reading (and I'm NOT an attorney) is that you really need to be worried about actually having voted in an election, and about ever having claimed to be a US Citizen. If you have registered to vote but haven't ever claimed to be a US Citizen or voted in an election, you might be alright. If you signed voter registration paperwork that included a claim of citizenship, even though you didn't read what you signed, you may be in serious trouble.

Again, I'd talk to an attorney to sort it all out.

Hi LuciRich!!!...I think you should be an attorney!!!...thanks for the good and useful information you gave me.
I came across few cases online that someone registered but never voted,and they told it to the officer and they were fine
From what I've read thus far,usually if one said they actually voted,thats when the officer follows up with questions and questions...I am not sur ein my case they may followup nad just give me benefit of a doubt and just proceed with the interview...?...I am getting worried about it now...

I think an attorney may not do that much from what you may be saying...I think it may all come down to(if the officer would not want to give me the benefit of a doubt)..

1.Maybe I had falsely claimed to be a US citizen if the reg.form I may have signed ...
2.If the city allows non-citizens to vote in local elections or not......

I really hope I find someone with this similar experience so I can get a feel of what I maybe facing...
I am also guessing that it may boil down to the officer who would interview me if they really want to go into the needy greedy.....I heard some sometimes take like 5mins....I;m crossing my fingers....
Thanks for the wealth of info you provided....
jumper8
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 12 2008, 05:32 PM) *
You're on dangerous ground, and you'd be wise to seek the advice of an attorney.

You may also want to look at what the interviewer will be using for guidance. See the AFM 74.2(g) (available from the USCIS here).

Also note Appendix 74-10 and Appendix 74-9

My reading (and I'm NOT an attorney) is that you really need to be worried about actually having voted in an election, and about ever having claimed to be a US Citizen. If you have registered to vote but haven't ever claimed to be a US Citizen or voted in an election, you might be alright. If you signed voter registration paperwork that included a claim of citizenship, even though you didn't read what you signed, you may be in serious trouble.

Again, I'd talk to an attorney to sort it all out.


I just wanted to follow up and see what your take on this may be....
Scenario 1:
To what extent can an attorney do if I did sign the form that said I was a US citizen which I was not becaue I may have not read it or they told me it was ok to sign it if I pay taxes...

Scenario 2:
Do you think it may be "ever" possible that though I signed the form,that I can later claim that I was not aware at the time and who ever registered me never asked me to go thru the form?....

I know you are not an attorney but your answers do give very logical sense,and educative guesses.....

Thanks very much!
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:21 PM) *
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 12 2008, 05:32 PM) *
You're on dangerous ground, and you'd be wise to seek the advice of an attorney.

You may also want to look at what the interviewer will be using for guidance. See the AFM 74.2(g) (available from the USCIS here).

Also note Appendix 74-10 and Appendix 74-9

My reading (and I'm NOT an attorney) is that you really need to be worried about actually having voted in an election, and about ever having claimed to be a US Citizen. If you have registered to vote but haven't ever claimed to be a US Citizen or voted in an election, you might be alright. If you signed voter registration paperwork that included a claim of citizenship, even though you didn't read what you signed, you may be in serious trouble.

Again, I'd talk to an attorney to sort it all out.


I just wanted to follow up and see what your take on this may be....
Scenario 1:
To what extent can an attorney do if I did sign the form that said I was a US citizen which I was not becaue I may have not read it or they told me it was ok to sign it if I pay taxes...

Scenario 2:
Do you think it may be "ever" possible that though I signed the form,that I can later claim that I was not aware at the time and who ever registered me never asked me to go thru the form?....

I know you are not an attorney but your answers do give very logical sense,and educative guesses.....

Thanks very much!

Did you sign the voter registration form? Yes or no? My understanding is that a signature is required. Ignorance of the law is never a defense.
jumper8
QUOTE(diadromous mermaid @ May 12 2008, 08:09 PM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:21 PM) *
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 12 2008, 05:32 PM) *
You're on dangerous ground, and you'd be wise to seek the advice of an attorney.

You may also want to look at what the interviewer will be using for guidance. See the AFM 74.2(g) (available from the USCIS here).

Also note Appendix 74-10 and Appendix 74-9

My reading (and I'm NOT an attorney) is that you really need to be worried about actually having voted in an election, and about ever having claimed to be a US Citizen. If you have registered to vote but haven't ever claimed to be a US Citizen or voted in an election, you might be alright. If you signed voter registration paperwork that included a claim of citizenship, even though you didn't read what you signed, you may be in serious trouble.

Again, I'd talk to an attorney to sort it all out.


I just wanted to follow up and see what your take on this may be....
Scenario 1:
To what extent can an attorney do if I did sign the form that said I was a US citizen which I was not becaue I may have not read it or they told me it was ok to sign it if I pay taxes...

Scenario 2:
Do you think it may be "ever" possible that though I signed the form,that I can later claim that I was not aware at the time and who ever registered me never asked me to go thru the form?....

I know you are not an attorney but your answers do give very logical sense,and educative guesses.....

Thanks very much!

Did you sign the voter registration form? Yes or no? My understanding is that a signature is required. Ignorance of the law is never a defense.


I dont remember I was only 3 weeks here in the US.From what I;ve read from the material LuciRich provided me with above.,I understand that even though they end up finding that I claimed to be a US citizen in the past by signing that form,the prosecutor would have to prove that my intentions was to gain benefits that are only limited to citizens,or vote (which I never voted or benefited as a reseult of the mistake) ...

I love the thoughts you guys are putting in to this,it helps me think more of what I may be facing...
lucyrich
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:46 PM) *
the prosecutor would have to prove ...


Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.
jumper8
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 13 2008, 12:06 AM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:46 PM) *
the prosecutor would have to prove ...


Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.


I LuciRich...
Thanks soo much for the very thoughtful replies...So say it does goes to courts and prosecutor can prove enough for a conviction,would;nt that mean..aquital?..and from what I've read,it seem they wont deny the application(awatiing the judges decision)..What i'm trying to say is that after aquital,would'nt that be a reason "not to deny"...?...

I hope all this nervousness I;m having would al just be speculations in the end...
pj1959us
As has been wisely suggested, you need to contact an attorney. This is not a "self-help" situation you are in. You would have had to sign the voter registration in order to receive the card and Missouri voter registration specifically states you must be a US citizen in order to register. In the eyes of immigration you have misrepresented yourself to be a US citizen and it will definitely be asked during the naturalization process whether you registered to vote and/or voted.

It will not matter to them that you were here only 3 weeks or did not read what you signed. The burden is on you, the immigrant, to ensure you are following certain regulations and registering to vote is a serious matter. Please be sure you receive professional assistance.

PJ
NickD
Here is the question verbatim from the N-400.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States? Yes No

If you answered yes, you are screwed, and if you answered no, and they check your voter registration and found that you are registered, you are screwed.


24. Have you ever lied to any U.S. government official to gain entry or admission into the
United States? Yes No


Having a voter registration is means that you have lied to show US Citizenship.

This is from the Missouri Voter Registration form.

1. ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Yes No

This is from the Missouri Driver's License Application form.

U.S. Citizen
One of the following:
• U.S. Birth Certificate (certified with embossed or raised seal issued by state or local government)
• U.S. Passport (valid or expired)
• Certificate of Citizenship
• Certificate of Naturalization
• Certificate of Birth Abroad


Lawful Permanent Resident
(Resident Aliens)
YES
 One of the following:
• I-551 card (Resident Alien Card)
• Passport stamped “Approved I-551”
• Passport stamped “Processed for I-551”
• Re-entry Permit I-327
• I-94 stamped “Processed for I-551”
Expiration dates do not indicate the expiration of legal permanent resident status.


I just find it impossible to believe they accidentally gave you a voter registration card, Missouri is no different from Wisconsin in this respect. As I said, our voter registration is completely separate from the DMV, but even at that, my wife could not renew her drivers license with an expired green card even with that I-797C one year extension notice. Counter clerk said what in the heck is that! Took personal contact from me to our Governor Doyle, and aid from Sen. Feingold's office, plus a ton of documents from the USCIS to explain why they were so slow. Sen. Feingold's office was great with their direct contact with the Nebraska office to verify everything we said was true. This went on for over a week with lots of phone calls and FAXes, she finally got her license renewed and we are not even talking about voter registration here.

Are you providing us with all the correct information? You did come here asking for help.
warlord
You are assuming the original poster just got their drivers licence recently or in the past few years. I got my first drivers licence 10 years ago and back then it wasn't as stingent as it is now. I got it in a mall kiosk and took 10 mins. At the time they had asked me about if I wanted to be registered to vote. I declined as I knew I wasn't supposed to. I can guarentee if I had chosen yes, the teenager working it would have just checked off the box.

At that time I did not need a passport/Greencard to get my first DL. I just had to hand over my current (canadian) DL and proof that I was living in the said county and state where I was applying for it. So it's very possible the original poster here got their card back then as well, which means it's highly possible it easily done without knowledge.

With that, I'm not sure how to convince the IO about registering to vote like that. Though it could be a naive overlook, I'm not sure the IO will still buy that...
lucyrich
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 10:17 PM) *
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 13 2008, 12:06 AM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:46 PM) *
the prosecutor would have to prove ...


Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.


I LuciRich...
Thanks soo much for the very thoughtful replies...So say it does goes to courts and prosecutor can prove enough for a conviction,would;nt that mean..aquital?..and from what I've read,it seem they wont deny the application(awatiing the judges decision)..What i'm trying to say is that after aquital,would'nt that be a reason "not to deny"...?...

I hope all this nervousness I;m having would al just be speculations in the end...


No, that's precisely what I don't mean.

If a situation is ambiguous enough that nobody can prove anything, then they legally cannot grant an immigration benefit, nor can they convict someone in a criminal trial.

As an analogy, remember that the criminal penalty for marrying for the purpose of gaining an immigration benefit is 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. But this penalty is rarely assessed, only in the most egregious of marriage fraud cases. That's because, in order to assess such a penalty, the case would have to go to criminal court and the prosecutor would have the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It can be very hard to prove somebody's intent in entering a marriage.

However, people are denied visas for marriage fraud much more often. That's because, in order to deny an immigration benefit, they only need to find that the immigrant didn't sustain the burden of proof of eligibility via a preponderance of the evidence. If the immigrant didn't prove the marriage was bona fide, then no immigration benefit can be granted.


I haven't heard nearly as much case history about voter registration issues. But the burden of proof goes the same way in all immigration matters. If you don't have enough evidence to prove via a preponderance of the evidence that you did NOT represent yourself to be a US citizen, then they'll have to deny the immigration benefit. That's true even if the body of evidence isn't enough to sustain a criminal conviction, or even to take the matter to criminal trial.

Let me repeat my suggestion that you discuss this with an immigration attorney who has relevant experience. I don't consider my own understanding of the issues reliable enough. If I, or someone close to me, were in a similar situation, I'd certainly be hiring an attorney.
NickD
That conditional residence was a last minute shock to me after what we went through and also a hardship by trying to explain to other government officials why an expired green card. But even with the help of an immigration attorney, still a very complicated process and a lot to learn. Would think if a guy married ten immigrants in the last year may be grounds for suspicion.

Haven't figured out yet whether immigration is a right or a privilege, but feel a privilege is more in line and the burden of proof is on our shoulders and we are guilty until we prove ourselves innocent.

It certainly is to the advantage that Jumper8 get this situation straightened out ASAP and a far superior solution than have to attempt to explain that to an immigration officer. Compassion, understanding, nor mercy are not requirements to become an IO.

Also do concur, was a lot easier to obtain a driver's license three years ago then today, wife just needed her passport (foreign country) and a DHS limited SS card to get it back then. But attention has been given recently to the some odd 20 million illegals in this country, and for that, even though our government permitted that to happen, we have to pay the price.
jumper8
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 13 2008, 11:34 AM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 10:17 PM) *
QUOTE(lucyrich @ May 13 2008, 12:06 AM) *
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 12 2008, 07:46 PM) *
the prosecutor would have to prove ...


Remember which direction the burden of proof goes.

If you're worried about being prosecuted in a criminal trial, the prosecutor has the burden of proof beyond all reasonable doubt. The defendant doesn't have to prove a thing in order to be acquitted.

However, if an alien is applying for an immigration benefit, including naturalization, the alien has the burden of proving eligibility for the benefit via a preponderance of the evidence. The government doesn't have to prove a thing in order to deny the benefit.

The Bart Simpson cliche, "they can't prove a thing", may mean you're immune from criminal prosecution, but it doesn't mean you'll be eligible for citizenship.


I LuciRich...
Thanks soo much for the very thoughtful replies...So say it does goes to courts and prosecutor can prove enough for a conviction,would;nt that mean..aquital?..and from what I've read,it seem they wont deny the application(awatiing the judges decision)..What i'm trying to say is that after aquital,would'nt that be a reason "not to deny"...?...

I hope all this nervousness I;m having would al just be speculations in the end...


No, that's precisely what I don't mean.

If a situation is ambiguous enough that nobody can prove anything, then they legally cannot grant an immigration benefit, nor can they convict someone in a criminal trial.

As an analogy, remember that the criminal penalty for marrying for the purpose of gaining an immigration benefit is 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. But this penalty is rarely assessed, only in the most egregious of marriage fraud cases. That's because, in order to assess such a penalty, the case would have to go to criminal court and the prosecutor would have the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It can be very hard to prove somebody's intent in entering a marriage.

However, people are denied visas for marriage fraud much more often. That's because, in order to deny an immigration benefit, they only need to find that the immigrant didn't sustain the burden of proof of eligibility via a preponderance of the evidence. If the immigrant didn't prove the marriage was bona fide, then no immigration benefit can be granted.


I haven't heard nearly as much case history about voter registration issues. But the burden of proof goes the same way in all immigration matters. If you don't have enough evidence to prove via a preponderance of the evidence that you did NOT represent yourself to be a US citizen, then they'll have to deny the immigration benefit. That's true even if the body of evidence isn't enough to sustain a criminal conviction, or even to take the matter to criminal trial.

Let me repeat my suggestion that you discuss this with an immigration attorney who has relevant experience. I don't consider my own understanding of the issues reliable enough. If I, or someone close to me, were in a similar situation, I'd certainly be hiring an attorney.


I think most of you guys are right....I spoke to a lawyer who handled a similar case.I am not sure if you guys knew about a south african guy who was to be deported for voting 3 times in a presidential election.
I contacted the guys mom and she gave me the lawyers number and I called him up and we had some discussion...

-He said he won the case(and the guys even was naturalized) based on the fact that the adjudicating officer never followed normal procedure during the interview to determine if the guy voted "knowingly" and "willfully" in the general election (more importantly) while knowing it was a violation of the law.....

-The lawyer told he.."the intent" is one of the things was built the case...that :
1.The adjudicating officer never followed normal procedure(I think the manual they give them) which is sort of long,but just stopped when the guy told him he voted...he said according to policies,the officer is suppose to ask the interviewee to determine if they indeed voted knowing that it was against the law...= "showing intent"...

2.He told me that the USCIS has handled thousands of cases like this,and they know that most immigrants make these mistakes...He also told me that the major thing of "falsely claiming to be US citizen" is a major issue when you show intent to gain benefit of because of that claim,but if you show that you might have signed a voter registration form as a new immigrant or by mistake,and more importantly, NEVER VOTED,it will not show any intent of "knowingly" and "willfully" trying to claim US citizenship for certain benefits like "voting"(which I never did),immigration,employment,e.t.c...

He flat out told me that almost 90%,I should be ok without his help,but said if I am overly cautious,he would prepare a "legal memorandum" that I would take to the interview.He said,if they asked me the question of "have ever registered to vote" and they said,they will deny my application,then I should hand them the memo which he would use to build a very strong case against USCIS.......

-He closed by saying if the officer does not see any intent of me claiming US citizenship at some point to gain benefits,then I should be fine...he said even if I may have signed "I am a US citizen" box,importantly..I never voted,plus he said I explained it that it was a mistake....so there should be pardon...he told me most cases are those who actually voted...

What do you guys think?....
jumper8
Oh..And he even mentioned that even if ever you claim US citizenship to "register to vote",you would be only fine...not deported...
NickD

Do you have a voters registration card now? Is it something on your driver's license? If you do, can you go back to the issuing office and surrender it and state it was issued to you by mistake? Then just get a normal driver's license.

From what you said, you never really applied for a voters registration, but it was given to you by mistake. I am with you on this as agencies do make mistakes, but I feel it is up to you to bring that error to their attention. Good luck on this. You are in the position now of knowingly holding an invalid voters registration, get rid of it and legally, just don't toss it in the trashcan. Your name is also on a database that has to be removed.

And get that voters registration back, after you are a US citizen. That is my suggestion.
jumper8
QUOTE(NickD @ May 13 2008, 10:15 PM) *
Do you have a voters registration card now? Is it something on your driver's license? If you do, can you go back to the issuing office and surrender it and state it was issued to you by mistake? Then just get a normal driver's license.

From what you said, you never really applied for a voters registration, but it was given to you by mistake. I am with you on this as agencies do make mistakes, but I feel it is up to you to bring that error to their attention. Good luck on this. You are in the position now of knowingly holding an invalid voters registration, get rid of it and legally, just don't toss it in the trashcan. Your name is also on a database that has to be removed.

And get that voters registration back, after you are a US citizen. That is my suggestion.


I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..
we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...
NickD


QUOTE
I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..
we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...



Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.
jumper8
QUOTE(NickD @ May 14 2008, 05:19 AM) *
QUOTE
I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..
we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...



Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.


Thank you NickD,
Thats what I was thinking also to say.You are right...I hope the question wont even come up...I've read some interview experience that sometimes,some of the adjudicators takes like 5 secs to go thru the application and just jump forward to the english test....
churipu
QUOTE(jumper8 @ May 14 2008, 01:22 PM) *
QUOTE(NickD @ May 14 2008, 05:19 AM) *
QUOTE
I dont have the registration..its a different card and not related to my drivers license...my name was taken off the list..
we'll see if the interviewee would raise it up...



Then you should be able to honestly answer NO to this question.

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

If the question is brought up, the State of Missouri did issue you a voters registered card in the process of applying for your driver's license that you DID NOT apply for. But when you received this card, you did surrender it and requested that your name be taken off the voters list.

If this is the case, you should be okay then.


Thank you NickD,
Thats what I was thinking also to say.You are right...I hope the question wont even come up...I've read some interview experience that sometimes,some of the adjudicators takes like 5 secs to go thru the application and just jump forward to the english test....


But I honestly wouldn't count on it...all the interviews that I have read about in this forum since I started reading it last year when I filed all reported to have been asked those questions. You are supposedly asked again at the interview because you're under oath.
BTW if the lawyer told you you'll be fine then you most likely will be.
Good luck
jumper8
Someone directed me to a few case at this link :http://soundpolitics.com/archives/008835.html
It appears that those who voted were in much trouble and there was one who was only registered and was asked to verify that he never voted - that is proving a history of voter records,and prove that he took his name of the list...
See this file... http://soundpolitics.com/Webb_NonCitizenVoters.pdf

Is there any other recent cases out there...?
I think the wise thing to do at this point is to:
1.Take the prove that my name was taken off the list.
2.take a prove that I have never voted even though I was registered....
3.explain details of why i registered to vote...

these were the things they request from one of those guys from the story above...clearly,they are trying to build a case that either shows "intent' or not...i guess....I know they should'nt have made the mistake...but I would like to get your insights on this also...
NickD
There is a strong distinction being advised by a professional immigration attorney on how to deal with a question if asked or saying a couple of guys on the forum told me to answer this question this way. One key difference is that an attorney is liable for the advice he gives you, we can only help you in the right direction.

There is also quite a difference between being in a court of law and sitting in front of an interviewers desk in regards to the law.

Getting back to the question at hand:

2. Have you ever registered to vote in any Federal, state or local election in the United States?

To do so would mean you went into a governmental agency and applied for (under false pretenses) to obtain a voters registration card, illegally. Did you do this? If you did, an honest answer would be YES! If you did not, but a voters registration was sent to you by an error of your state, the answer is No.

You can be advised to volunteer information and this works both ways, can answer NO, but you were sent a voter's registration by an error of your state, you never used this card, but did return it back to your state.

This can get to be a very serious situation, and lucyrich and I are only going by the information you have provided, I have dealt considerably with various attorneys and have been an expert witness on a number of occasions, but am not an attorney. Good advice would be to give all of these details to an immigration attorney and go from there.

If you can get a letter from your state admitting they made an error by sending you a voters registration card, and they you in good faith returned it, that would be very good evidence in your defense. But again, check with your attorney, your attorney may even be able to get that letter for you.

Unfortunately, in this blame everybody except yourself society, we are victims of other people's mistakes, and it hurts to have to take money out of your pocket to defend yourself. But what else can one do?
Mojoo
hello jumper 8
i have the same situation you have
back in 2005 i went to the dmv without my wife to get the driver lic. and the empolyee at the dmv in WV ask me for proofs and i showed her my marriage certifcate and she told me you are married to u.s citizen that's mean you are us citizen and she checked the box for me and i didn't know no things
so i went home and i called uscis and they told me no you are not a citizen
so i didn't care about what happend
afew weeks later i recived a registration card in the mail
i told my wife what is that ?
and because she didn't know she told ohhh that's normal it's always happens when any one gets his driver lic.
so in feb 2008 when i was preparing for my n400 i found that ques. have you ever claim to be a us citizen and have y ou ever register to vote
i freaked out
i didn't ask for a freking voteing card to begin with
so i went to the dmv ask them what's going on
they told me to go to the record in the capitol
i went and i asked them what's going on
they told u checked the box for us citizen
i told them the story and i'm not a u s citizen and it was that dumbass that she act like she konw every things more than the Governor
they told me they can't fix it it's illegal but they will write in top it's mistake and they took a copy of my social sec and my 2 years green card and my 10 years green card
i went to registration office for voting i told the same story and they canceld the card and give me a letter that i never voted
in my n 400 i checked no for both because i never claimed and never need to vote
but i'm gonna tell the officer that
my interview in 6-19-08
i talked to a attorney and she said you are most likely don't need help just tell that to the officed and don't be nervous
and she told if she need help she could come with me to the interview but surely it will cost alot of $$$
she said 500 just to make a research and another 500 to attend with me
but the question is what if i don't tell the officer any thing if he didn't bring it up
why i have to bring it up since it's not my fault
and what if they find it out later ?
what if the attorney understate the problem what if i get to be deported
that's mean i will lose my future my work my school my whole life
so jumper please tell me about ur interview when and what will happened and please provied me with your attorney's phone # i might need to call him too
and please guy share with me your opinion
thanks a lot
NickD
I took it upon myself to help my wife and daughter with our laws and explain it to them. Do not recall any instructions given with their initial conditional green cards, but with the ten year card they did send a four page brochure. On the second page, they suggest you obtain a copy of the M-618 manual, surprised they didn't include that manual with the new or even original green cards.

But you can download it at:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/M-618.pdf

A 118 page manual.

On page 90, you will find:

Permanent residents have most of the rights of U.S. citizens.
But there are many important reasons to consider
becoming a U.S. citizen. Here are some good reasons:
• Showing your patriotism. Becoming a citizen is a way
to demonstrate your commitment to your new country.
• Voting. Only citizens can vote in federal elections.
Most states also restrict the right to vote, in most
elections, to U.S. citizens.

• Serving on a jury. Only U.S. citizens can serve on a
federal jury. Most states also restrict jury service to
U.S. citizens. Serving on a jury is an important
responsibility for U.S. citizens.

When I went down to a local field office with my wife, I requested a copy of the M-618 and the M-476 books, prefer a binded book to read, was just told to go to the USCIS site and download it. They sure don't make if very easy.

As a permanent resident, if you are a male between 18 and 25, make sure you register for selective service at:

https://www.sss.gov/RegVer/wfRegistration.aspx

That also seems strange to me, can't vote, can't drink, can't serve on a jury as a permanent resident, but have to register for the draft in case we ever have one again.

Also that bit on paying taxes, keeping the USCIS informed within ten days if you change address, and notifying the USCIS and even getting approval first if you plan on leaving the country for over a year.

It is complicated and very confusing and became much worse after 9/11. I have a very low opinion of our current administration, the old INS was far more organized and even had questions that didn't take an immigration attorney to ask what they meant. Putting a Cuban refugee in charge of the new USCIS was not a good idea, the American broad of Immigration attorneys finally got rid of them. Putting person in charge of the EPA that thinks sodium chloride is a dangerous chemical, and a guy in charge of the FAA that doesn't know the difference between an aircraft or a roller skate were also not good ideas. Can only hope this country gets back on track in the new election.

I am a veteran of a foreign war, college graduate, was a general manager of a fortune 500 with a good handle on the many city, county, state, and federal laws including patent laws that happen to meet the woman of my dreams of a foreign country. Had no idea how complicated it was to bring her here and the zillions of forms involved with questions that didn't even make any sense. That started five years ago and still learning and that is on top of everything else. Why can't stuff like this be made simple? No wonder why mistakes are made, and yes other governmental agencies have no idea what the USCIS rules are.
jumper8
QUOTE(Mojoo @ May 15 2008, 04:41 AM) *
hello jumper 8
i have the same situation you have
back in 2005 i went to the dmv without my wife to get the driver lic. and the empolyee at the dmv in WV ask me for proofs and i showed her my marriage certifcate and she told me you are married to u.s citizen that's mean you are us citizen and she checked the box for me and i didn't know no things
so i went home and i called uscis and they told me no you are not a citizen
so i didn't care about what happend
afew weeks later i recived a registration card in the mail
i told my wife what is that ?
and because she didn't know she told ohhh that's normal it's always happens when any one gets his driver lic.
so in feb 2008 when i was preparing for my n400 i found that ques. have you ever claim to be a us citizen and have y ou ever register to vote
i freaked out
i didn't ask for a freking voteing card to begin with
so i went to the dmv ask them what's going on
they told me to go to the record in the capitol
i went and i asked them what's going on
they told u checked the box for us citizen
i told them the story and i'm not a u s citizen and it was that dumbass that she act like she konw every things more than the Governor
they told me they can't fix it it's illegal but they will write in top it's mistake and they took a copy of my social sec and my 2 years green card and my 10 years green card
i went to registration office for voting i told the same story and they canceld the card and give me a letter that i never voted
in my n 400 i checked no for both because i never claimed and never need to vote
but i'm gonna tell the officer that
my interview in 6-19-08
i talked to a attorney and she said you are most likely don't need help just tell that to the officed and don't be nervous
and she told if she need help she could come with me to the interview but surely it will cost alot of $$$
she said 500 just to make a research and another 500 to attend with me
but the question is what if i don't tell the officer any thing if he didn't bring it up
why i have to bring it up since it's not my fault
and what if they find it out later ?
what if the attorney understate the problem what if i get to be deported
that's mean i will lose my future my work my school my whole life
so jumper please tell me about ur interview when and what will happened and please provied me with your attorney's phone # i might need to call him too
and please guy share with me your opinion
thanks a lot

Mojoo,
So did you answered "yes" to the question that "Have you ever registered to vote"....
I answered "Yes" to that question,but I anwered NO to "have you ever voted",and also "have you ever claimed to be a US citizen"....

If you answered "Yes" that you have registered,don't bring it up on the interview,just wait till they bring it up and then tell the story and provide proof of you story..

But if you answered "NO" to the question "have you ever registered to vote"...never even bring it up,you will be digging yourself a grave if you do....

I have not received the interview letter yet,but expecting ti to come soon,I will let you know what happens....
So let me know about the questions i ask above?...
thanks and lets hope this does not bring us down...
Mojoo
hello jumper
i never voted and
i did answer no for both question
i answered no that i never claim to be us citizen
and i answered no that i never register to vote
you telling me don't bring it up !!! but what if they find out about later and then it will be big trouble don't you think that the better way to tell them now since you wrote about that guy who did register and did vote and was never deported ?
tell what do you think ??? was that lawyer u talked to sure about what he is talking about ?
tell me more about what u are going to do
thanks
Mojoo
jumper8
QUOTE(Mojoo @ May 16 2008, 12:01 AM) *
hello jumper
i never voted and
i did answer no for both question
i answered no that i never claim to be us citizen
and i answered no that i never register to vote
you telling me don't bring it up !!! but what if they find out about later and then it will be big trouble don't you think that the better way to tell them now since you wrote about that guy who did register and did vote and was never deported ?
tell what do you think ??? was that lawyer u talked to sure about what he is talking about ?
tell me more about what u are going to do
thanks
Mojoo


I think if you bring it up,it would be a part of having moral character and an innocent disclosure of an true mistake,and you would explain about what really happened.
1.If you dont really remember sending them your voter registration before,please try hard to remember,because this would either be a either your luck or your nightmare..because if you remember 100% that you never sent them the voter card as prove,DONT attempt to bring it up at the interview,but however,if you do recall that you sent it,then do bring it up since you anwered "NO- that you never registered to vote"and tell them that it was a mistake,and you never voted....

2.If infact you sent them the voter reg.card before - you answered NO - that you never registered,and they will give you a chance to answer the question again during the interview and if you again say "NO" that you never registered,then this will show "lack of good moral(lie) and would deny + who knows more legal proceeding...This will indicate to them that you indeed had a malicious intent,but if you tell them up front that you registered as a mistake,and have de registered,to me,this would not show any intent of commiting voter fraud and the officer might just pardon you(depending also on the interviewer)...
Read someone's xperience here: http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTop...amp;m=936100787

Also this is the lady that his son actually voted,and we started a thread,and she finally gave me the lawyer contact info.
read the thread: http://atheisttoolbox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47418#47418
we will talk more tomorrow...
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