Lets not take things so literal. I am sure that he knows that not all Russian men are bad, but is it really necessary to call him on the carpet for not inserting the word 'few' or the phrase 'can be'?

"I hear the stories about men in Russia" -- seems pretty literal to me. And does an isolated incident at one clinic in Moscow represent everyone? No. Could a similar thing happen in other places? yes. There is a reason why there is the law that I mentioned previously. There are a lot of doctors who have done bad things everywhere. http://jezebel.com/357761/dr-graeme-reeves...ckest-man-alive This Australian doctor is 90000000x worse, for instance.

Anyway, AOM has Russian male doctors too, so the point was moot to begin with.

Yea, sounds literal, but why take it that way? Like I said before, the law of averages says they are not all that way, so as an intelligent person, I am sure he knows that. Why do we need to be so PC?

It's not about being PC. If I said that Russian women were money-grubbing whores (which, by the way, I don't think ), for instance, that would not be OK. Same principle.

How dare you call Russian women money-grubbing!!

ok, ok. Very interested in economics.

So...whores who are interested in economics? Oh eekee, I always thought you were one of the good ones!

well, as I am sure you learned during your time on Pitcairn Island, the truth hurts.

LOL! Yes it does.

With such an attitude you better higher a several body guards to protect your wife. Because your odds of getting sexually assaulted right here in America is way higher than at that clinic.

I think everybody has different levels of sensitivity. Likewise language translations tend to cause strange interpretations. Some people also like to over react and exaggerate. I think there is certainly some truth to the story. But I like averages when it comes to strange incidents.

Depends on where the alley is located and the odds of somethings going wrong. I am not conclusive or head strong like others. I think things through rather than act irrationally out of pure principal.

It's one thing to make someone do something that's maybe not so safe simply because you're being a cheapskate and another entirely when there's no "protection money" to go around. Maybe they can't afford to take a cab so she must walk through a dark alley.

In situations like that, the only thing that can be done is to minimize the risk. When you have excess cash, it's nothing to pay for safety and piece of mind. But, when the cash isn't there, sometimes a calculated risk is necessary.



I've known a lot of girls like this, and now I have a smart-@$$ and sacrcastic, albeit PC, way to describe them. Thanks, eekee!

I think anyone who lives beyond a cardboard box home on skid row can afford one more night in Moscow...even if you just go to the airport and sleep. A cheap bus ride and a seat at Terminal 2 cost almost nothing. Or for only a few bucks you could bribe the late night hotel clerk to let you sit in the lobby all night.

But let's be real, I'd have to guess 85-90% of American men looking oversea for a wife, or who luckily discovered a wife while overseas, have a good amount of income...at least enough to pay for one more night in Moscow. Yes?

Yea, whats another $150-200 on the ol' credit card?

I guess I've been going to the FSU for so long I've gotten desensitized to the crazy costs there. When I think of what I've paid for airfare, taxis, renting houses and flats and the restaurants...well one extra night in Moscow seems like pocket change.

Cost of doing business.

You and I are making the same point my friend

Well there is little you can do about the cost of airfare except fly in the off season, sometimes between February and April or September through November. We never use taxis in Moscow, so no cost there. The bus / group taxi costs under $1. We never rented at Western rates, but rather stayed at my wife's uncle's flat in the Moscow suburbs. But if we had to rent it would be at Russian rates sharing some room with locals in those same suburbs an hour away by commuter train. So yeah, $150 is a lot when that money would be better spent here in the US on something like AOS.

For those of us not "doing business" over there, even a single trip is something that can take years to plan and pay for. And, when there's not a "significant" source of income to pay for it all, the credit cards don't even work. If you only have a $300 limit on your Capital One No Hassle Platinum card, (at 29.95% with a $150 annual fee) that's not going to go very far to pay for an extra night.

I think you guys in your mid-to-late 30's, 40's and even 50's need to remember how much money you had in your 20's. You were nowhere near generating the kind of cash you're generating now and nowhere near the amount of wealth and/or credit. Sure, an extra couple hundred bucks is nothing for you now. But would it have been 20 years ago?

And, you're talking about tacking on an extra hundred or two to a trip that is costing you several thousand dollars, probably even closer to $10,000 once you figure in her airfare too. As a young guy, you'd be trying to be closer to $1,000 than $10,000 and when you think about it in terms of percentages, $150-$200 is a significant chunk of change when the total trip costs about $2,000 compared to what it would be as part of the $7,493 trip that the more "aged" guys are able to take.

I'm in 100% agreement that you deserve it, your girl deserves it, and money should be no object. But, people who say money is no object are the people who can afford to say money is no object. Or, at least, it's not as much of an object. When you make under $30,000/year, taking a $3,000 vacation is huge. When you make $45,000 plus, EVERY YEAR, and have been for the last ten years or so, taking a $6,000 vacation is chump change.

So, don't call Satellite (and indirectly me too) cheap. Just understand that sometimes a calculated risk to save what money is available is necessary. Or, at the very minimum, paying extra for "piece of mind" just isn't an option. Yet. Hopefully the time will come when it is. But, by that time, it shouldn't even be necessary as the "calculated risk" has been done enough that it's no longer risky.

I don't think I've called Satellite "cheap" yet, I still haven't exhausted all the other things to call him. I'll add it to the list though.

The first quote is exactly the reason why I get so tired of Satellite (and I guess you, although you haven't been near as abrasive about it) coming in and telling everyone what an idiot they are because they spent $30 on a cab. Everyone here is in a different financial situation and a different time of their life. Maybe $30 is a lot to Satellite and you. But others find it affordable and are willing to pay. So when Sat comes in looking down his nose at anyone who can't figure out how to use the autobus (hint: it's not easy, even in Moscow) or just walk the 18 miles uphill through the snow in the dark to save 50 rubles, it gets annoying. Because YES we get it. There are cheaper alternatives. And yes, we know Satellite speaks the language and he knows the culture and we're all a bunch of dumbass tourists because we don't. We GET it.

So yeah, if $30 is a lot for you, then you're going to have to work the system a little bit more. But I for one am sick of being (implicitly) called a rube because saving time between terminals was worth a $30 cab ride to me. Because I guarantee that when Satellite starts pulling in that 6 figure salary, he's not going to be riding the goddamned autobus or hoofing it around Moscow. He's probably gonna rent a limousine and sip wine while cruising through the streets of Moscow. And occasionally he'll have the driver pull over so his wife can catch up.

while i tend to agree with Sat on the saving-money points, i do agree that the bus is not so easy, especially when the windows are totally frozen over and there's no announcement over a PA system as to which stop you're at. You just have to KNOW without being able to see out the window.

Awesome line.

Slim and Sat, you are cheap bastards, get over yourselves, and admit it. I am sure your wives would agree.

Should they go into debt to satisfy their wives' every whim?

Done that! It's amazing though, ESP does kick in! I never missed my stop in Kazan'. I got used to the curve of the road, that special pothole, and the way the few colours trickled through the frost. Oh, it's my stop!

I think Sat is cheap...and he's shown that often IMO. I judge some people are cheap by necessity and some by their nature. I think Sat falls in the latter category. I don't have an opinion about you (Slim)...but if you want to be offended that's your issue. I don't challenge "cheap" around most issues...but I do concerning a woman's well-being. With that said, if you read my various posts you'll see that I suggested ways to stay in Moscow an extra day without spending much if money any, beyond a few cents for the bus...so why embrace any risk with options?

I will only add that I liked what Mox had to say and agree with his comments around money, Sat, etc.

You are absolutely right Slim, and If i indirectly called you Cheap, that was not my intention. But you are one of the people that braved this without a lot of money. I dont know how old you are, but I think mid 20's which puts us around 8-10 years apart (Im 34) and I would not have even contemplated doing this when I was in my early 20's like you did. Your absolutely right, I didnt have near enough money to do it. So, my hats off to you for your resourcefulness. But, we dont all throw away money like you suggest. My trip to go over and bring my fiancee back with me is $3030 and includes all airfare, hotel in Moscow, transfers, everything except money on the ground. I am all about not spending more than necessary.

I just want to caveat my last post by saying that I'm all for posts on how to save money or even travel through Russia on the cheap. I think that's one of the unstated goals of this forum, and I for one am all ears. I won't be riding limousines through the streets of Moscow in my lifetime, so if I can turn a $30 cab ride into a $5 autobus ride, I'm all for it. But don't tell me I'm an idiot for just walking outside Sheremetyevo for the first time in my life, trying to make a connection in 45 minutes and spending $30 on a cab instead of wandering around trying to find people to share a cab with or other wonderful deals. I'll pocket that info for future use, and advice like that is appreciated, but it doesn't make me an idiot for not knowing it or having the time to use it in the first place.

No, but they come to boards, and call people out all the time, which by the way is refreashing sometimes !!! They know how to call a "duck a duck".

HOWEVER, when someone calls them a "duck" they insist they are a "goose" !!

GET OVER IT YOU CHEAP BASTARDS !!!

Don't explain it... Don't rationalize it... it makes you look stupid.

And I really don't care what their wives get or don't get, or how many whims they satisfy, but I have seen Sat's wife come to these boards and complain about his cheapness, and slim tells everyone outright his wife thinks he is cheap. So hence my comment... get over yourselves cheap skates!

Tell em Brother Mox...tell em! The discussion doesn't have to always drop to the lowest common means to get something done just to not offend the few who have made a champagne decision on beer budget.

I am a cheap bastard, I'll admit to that, and of course my wife would agree. However, I do agree with the concensus that anything that can be done to increase her comfort and especially security, should be paid for. What I'm doing though, is playing 's advocate (which seems to be my self-imposed duty now) and saying if the money's not there to pay for that stuff, it's not there. Don't make it into an "I care more about saving $100 than her safety" issue when that's not the case.

However, mox may be onto something that it's not so much a money vs. safety issue as much as it is a thumbing of the nose at you for overpaying issue. I don't know. Really, I don't care. I'm not insulted by anything anyone says. (In true AKDiver form, "You can't make me react to you, I can choose to react or not.")



First, I just turned 29, so we're only 5-6 years apart. That said, I was in complete financial shambles when I went over there and did all the paperwork to get her here. (Recently separated from the military, living in my dad's basement.... etc., etc., etc.) I tried to find all the best deals possible and still do. I'm not saying money should be pissed away for her every comfort and amenity, I'm only saying that for guys who are a little older and make very good money to call younger guys that are less financially set (like Satellite and myself) cheap at the expense of their fiancee's security is just not accurate. I'm not offended by it, it's just not reality.

And instead of taking a "Satellite is so wrong for saying we're all stupid for spending money on our girl's well-being" approach, I wish they'd take a "I'm older, I've got the money, glad I could do it for her" approach.



I could care less if you want to agree with me and my wife on me being cheap. It is true, I'm a cheap bastard. But to say I think myself a goose is just not right. If I'm a duck, I'll say I'm a duck! After all, I said I'm cheap.

In this thread, I'm not arguing that I'm not cheap or even that Satellite's not cheap. We've both, time and again, said that we wouldn't pay as much money for some of the creature comforts and the like that other forum members have gladly paid for. What I am arguing is that when there's no money to pay for something, there's no money to pay for it, and that's not a conscious decision on either of our parts to unduely put our fiancee's in jeopardy. It's simply a matter of economics.

HONK! (err, I mean, ah, QUACK!)

I use coupons when I go grocery shopping. But I don't go on and on about it on the immigration message boards.

I'm bored at work and trying to was trying to liven things up a bit, its getting so PC in here... and Mox's message gave me a good laugh, I had to follow up on it.

You're really paying for YOUR safety, not your fiancee's. Trust me. Despite the fact that it is very counterintuitive, a foreign man is a lot less safe in Russia than a foreign man. The worst thing to ever happened to a woman I know is being pickpocketed. The worst thing that ever happened to a guy I know? I can't even talk about it because it's too dangerous as the culprits are still at large. I also know guys who have had the #### kicked out of them for walking down the street. When I'm with American guys, we're followed by narcomen and drunks and harassed by police. None of this happens when I'm with Russian girls. I actually felt safer walking home alone at night in SPb than where I am now because there's so many places open 24 hours that I could go into if i felt like something was wrong. But obviously foreign men who seem like they might have some cash in their pockets? Walking target. Your women survived just fine relying on their street smarts before you ever came into the picture. Sure it's nice to treat them and all, but as far as risk aversion goes...

Wait...what?

Haha, sorry. A foreign man is less safe than a Russian woman.

Eekee, you travel in a young crowd and despite what you feel about yourself...you're no expert on Russia, and I find your anecdotal war stories interesting but based on a sample small enough to mean nothing. And I think younger men show a soft vulnerable presence that brings out the wolves. I've never been afraid in Russia...day or night. I've had to stare down a few drunks and punks but no big deal. My concern was for one specific issue...MOM based on reports of harassment and abuse. Knowing and observing Russia men around attractive women, I don't for a minute doubt the stories are true.

You're really not in a place to be able to make these kinds of assumptions about my life. But I do know what I've seen, and trust me it is not all about people under 30.

Everybodys got a different opinion. I have walked all over Odessa, Ukraine, Sochi and St. Pete and Moscow at all times of the night. No one has ever followed me, never been harassed by the cops, never had a moments pause. Hell, in my younger days, I would stupidly walk the worst parts of Sydney, Australia after all the bars let out for the night just to look for trouble. Never found any. So does that mean that no one has ever been rolled in Sydney? Just because it hasnt happened to you doesnt mean that it doesnt or can not happen or that it does not happen on a regular basis. For one, my fiancee WAS attacked when walking home to her house, not traveling through an unfamiliar city in a bad area. Got lucky enough to get away before they were able to do anything.

I pay for HER safety, not my own. Sometimes I might even shell out a little extra for my piece of mind that might be seen as excessive, but if it costs me an extra $100 bucks not to worry, so be it. There are too many confirmed reports of bad things happening to women in Russia. The chances of something happening to one of the ladies on this forum, very slim indeed, but why take the chance?

And your not really in a place to tell me whos safety I pay for. I dont worry about myself, I worry about her.

I'm reading a lot of specific points that I agree with, and some that I don't, from just about everybody. FWIW I never felt in danger as a foreigner, in fact just the opposite. But I think dismissing ekee's experiences out of hand would be folly. No matter her age, there's something to be said about "boots on the ground" experience.

Also I just couldn't let an argument go by without jumping right in the middle of it.

Mox "the antagonizer" Pitbull Animal

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to protect a woman you love. But the attitude sometimes veers toward protecting them from the place they've obviously managed to survive in all these years just fine. The Russian women I know are far more street smart than their American equivalents on average.

I get harassed by men just as much in America as I do in Russia. The men in america also tend to be more sober when they do it, which isn't really an advantage.

Again, not trying to say that there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to ensure the safety of a woman you love...

Mox: Forum provocateur. It's that Northern California thing...he can't help it.

I completely agree with what you are saying, but there is a subtle point that is not distinctly made. A woman from any town knows how to survive in that town or similar towns. When that same woman goes to Moscow for the first time, she probably does not. Same with here, I know where I am and where I shouldnt be when walking around my city, but put me in New York or any other big city I have never been and my basic survival skills are still intact, but my opportunity to get into a tight spot increases dramatically.

Certainly not inherently wrong. Isn't it inherently right to want this? Maybe you just misspoke?

One thing I think you need to realize Ekee (and maybe you do) is that men have a primal need to "protect" their women. We know they've lived on those streets all their life, but once they fall under our umbrella we feel the responsibility falls to us to shield them from harm. It's not anything I can explain, and it is sometimes manifested irrationally, but it is what it is.

Nancy Pelosi put me up to it.

no, I do understand this about men. Even my platonic guy friends are always very conscious of my safety. There are dangers which exist in Russia which don't really exist in the United States (neonazi skinhead fascists going "hunting" for minorities, packs of feral dogs attacking people, etc.) but stuff like sexual assault happens everywhere. One of the reasons why i say Russia is more dangerous for men is that if a bunch of guys do jump you, in Russia probably people won't intervene and often the police won't either. Many criminals are actually aligned with the police--like thieves who hang around metro stations. People just don't want to get involved.

And Bobalouie you make a good point about a strange city. I do not like going to small cities in Russia.

Its better if other people dont get involved to help, especially the police. I dont have to worry about maiming and disfiguring innocent people when I am attacked, or go to jail for doing it I dont like to have to make an "innocent, but thought to be involved" descision when I am enjoying my lifes work

Ah yes, the protector role. Reminds me of another of my little tales. Sitting in café one fine Saturday night and this completely drunken guy starts to hit on every woman in the joint. I make a comment about he better not try it at this table. Alla, calmly looks at me, "Jeffery, I have lived in Russia for 36 years. You maybe think I have not been in this situation hundreds of times? I am perhaps foolish girl not able to find exit to this problem? You will do nothing! Only sit peacefully." Within a few minutes, the guy approached our little table in the corner. Alla gave him one look and began to spew some serious мат. This guy froze in his steps turned away and left us completely alone. "You see my love, you would have started fight. Maybe we would later had to have talk with militsiya. That would be terrible for you. I found simple exit." I didn't ask her exactly what she said to the guy. But I know it had to be very good!