that doesnt enter into it hes a man and shes a woman he could have come from anywhere and so could she,

Since i joined there have been others, wont say many but a few that have gone thru bad times, we are not in their houses so we dont know the situation, was it because of where he came from, did she change, did she change her mind maybe she abused him, who knows, even then we just usually hear one side of a two sided life

wom...I know you are right.......But come on...read nana's post .Doesn't some of these peoples cavalier attitude towards greecard fraud and towards americans piss anyone else off?I just need to be quiet...Sorry....I just get so damned pissed off

as for the video, got to love american women, i can see why all foreign men are flocking to america for the cards, with examples of life so readily avail as this, im sure most would want to give up their women of their country for this woman independent life style (not)

I read nana's post. No one here is saying that there isn't something such as green card fraud -- but there are quite a few countries known for it that aren't in MENA -- in fact, most of them aren't.

And it isn't part of the "MENA culture" at all -- it's about the fact that there are desperate people in the world who willing to do desperate things, even heartlessly deceive others, to obtain what they want.

It's not nana's fault if her family took part in something like this. She was 9 years old !!! I think she's being very brave and very honest to tell the story here -- but there's no need to snipe at her for it. She's saying it *does* happen, but it's not *the rule* -- just like most American men don't beat their wives or try to steal their money.

I think it would be quite unfair for someone who had an unhappy relationship with an American man to come on this site and make similar warnings to all foreign women who are marrying American men, trying to characterize this type of behavior as being common.

Let go of your anger and resentment at the past. It's over now -- he can't hurt you any more unless you let him be that thorn in your heart. You have a husband that you love and a beautiful daughter and a baby on the way -- you have a family who needs you to be concentrating on them, not the past. All the anger over spilt milk is just a waste of your energy. Embrace your family and your future -- this is what will bring you true happiness.



-MK

my mom's mom was my nana. I miss her.

I also belive this is true, the anger from the past can ruin a future. Things that happen are done, they made us who we are today, if we go into a new relationship looking for these signs, or similarities undoubtly we will not only find them but prob be the cause of them .

Wahrania,I did not know of your past experience, as you do not know of mine, all that we both see is a conmputer screen.
But all bull #### aside. I do believe that you are a brave woman to leave the bad situation that you were in, many woman dont, and many woman die of this.
But, you should use that experience as something that has made you stronger, not angrier. I understand your anger, I am angry too, thats why I have no spoken or seen my family since October of 2003. But you have a daughter that may (god forbid) go through the same, or maybe a similar circumstance you will be an example of bravery to her, Please be an example of forgiveness also. I pray that allah brings peace to your heart--Nancy

I know a large, and I mean LARGE group of men here from Iraq. They are refugees from the Desert Storm. Although they are here and not looking for a visa, I could tell you horror stories about how these men use women to get anything and everything. Trust me, I have seen a lot of SHI#. In fact it was enough crap that I almost didn't give my husband a chance. I based him on these men I know. SHAME ON ME! I was judging not just my sweet husband, but many men on the few I know. When I met my husband's ex brother in law I was shocked and amazed in the differences between him and the men I know. This is the reason I gave my husband a chance. Now I know how wrong I was to judge all MENA men on the actions of the few. This is the reason I defend them, because I was one that judged.

WOM you are a wise woman, I respect you more than I can say.

Wahrania, you have some experience here, you just need to let go of your anger so you can also see through clear eyes.

Nana, I am sure that it hurts you to know what your family did, and thank you for sharing that with us. I hope you never blame yourself, you were a child.

My husband just got mad at me cause I hadn t called him since the morning...i was cheating on him with WOM and VJ lolololol

Go give him some attention, girl -- he misses his wife !



-MK

from peru.

Olivia,

My heart honestly breaks for you because I remember the times over the last four years that days were very, very dark for me. When my father passed away and my husband couldn't be with me to help me through it, it honestly was a challenge to just keep breathing. There were days that I sought comfort on VJ or message boards because it's hard to talk to family or friends who do not understand the sheer devastating loneliness that you go through during this whole process. I would read many negative comments about MENA men and who they use women and I will admit there were times that I let some of it creep into my mind.

Now our situation is a little different in that I met my husband here in the States and we were married before he ever got stuck in Morocco. But that didn't stop the bad thoughts seeping into my love for him. When you have friends and family questioning your relationship and saying all of the sterotypical stuff about Arabs, while you might deflect it, it still creeps into your thoughts. Perhaps it's a self-protective mode...I don't know.

After all that my husband and I have been through, we've been married for 7 years now, I believe with my whole heart that we went through these times to make our relationship strong and mature us. Had I given up early or listened to all that I read or heard, I wouldn't have my precious, beautiful little boy. I have traveled to places in this world that I never would have and I have learned about a culture and peoples that I might not have. All the knowledge that I have gained would be lost.

I read a quote once (not sure who said it) that "everything you want is on the other side of fear". If the two of you have stood by each other through so much already...keep hanging Olivia.

I would NEVER, EVER want to relive the last four years because it's been the most difficult and rugged journey of my life. I look at it as the biggest, toughest mountain that I've ever had to climb. But when I got to the top a few weeks ago and saw my husband at the airport and knew in that moment, that we would never have to be apart again....all the times that I stumbled and thought it was too high to climb, but I kept going...it made that moment more joyous than I can describe. When I see my husband reading bedtime stories to our son at night or in the kitchen making a meal or even something so small and insignificant as replacing the toilet paper on the holder, I feel wrapped in this man's love for me and my son and cherish every moment.

My hope and prayer for you is that you will find your way through this tough journey and that when you come out the other side and you and your husband are finally together, it will be more wonderful than you can imagine.

Very beautifully writen!!

Wahrania - Being that your experience with the Palestinian was so horrific, why did you then enter a relationship with a Moroccan and now an Algerian and perhaps others? Is it because you realize they are not all the same?

I would like to add my two cents about men of different regions.....

In my life, I have dated a man from Ecuador, one from Cuba, one from Syria, one from Spain, one from Morocco, two good 'ole boys from the South (one that I married to make my family happy) and one from Palestine.

Each one of these men were different in the way that they treated me, some bad and some good and each with their taught customs and heritage. Each man was his own person and in no way was a general representative of his country. They were responsible for their actions and I have learned from each and every one of those relationships.

The man who is now my husband is from Gaza. I have a love with this man like nothing else I have ever experienced. I don't attribute the qualities of our relationship because of the country he is from, but simply from the man he is.

I don't deny that growing up surrounded by a certain culture doesn't affect a person, but I believe each person is responsible for their own actions and how they treat other people. What comes around....goes around!!!! Just say'in!

Aisha, I spent the majority of my younger life overseas and basically finished my high school years in Sweden. I attended a school in Stockholm , Sweden and lived with a member of the highest socialist party in Sweden. I never in my life knew how Americans were perceived by Europeans and foreigners until I lived there. I actually witnessed the American flag being torn down and our anthem bood and saw first hand european television accounts of 1983 and 1984 and the events in Lebanon with our soldiers.I think that my view are perhaps not delivered correctly but they are tempered with alot of experience, albeit traumatic. I see things perhaps from a different looking glass... a different window.

My experience with Moroccans and Algerians has actually been quite pleasant. The palestinian, well , to say the least was the most awful experience of my life. I actually felt as if all the people around him were complicit in his horrible abuse of me.. Ironically it was one of his friends from Berzeit University who tipped me off to what he was doing by calling me at 3 in the morning.. the brother of the one who tipped me off became furious with his brother for "tipping me off" Together with 5000 dollars in credit card fraud done against me, stacks of fake social security cards in his closet and several palestinians using my address for their mail without my knowledge or permission and visits from the FBI, department of the airforce, the call from his girlfriend offering to come over and confront him together was the one thing I really couldnt handle ( the orange country sherrifs department with ICE looking for him with guns drawn at my front door seemed more explainable... or understandable). I loved him. I became furious at how complicit his friends were for covering for him, lying, calling me telling me he was with me, always it felt like a whole gang was in on his every move, if it wasnt cousins, it was friends, lying, covering, trying to convince me that the punch would be the last, that he loved me, that I was imagining things.. ( the criminal suits arrving in my mailbox for people I didnt know were enough to push me over the edge. ) I loved him. I loved him as much as I was alive and even the day I went into court with a restraining order, he was trying to get around it, telling other people he loved me and that he was mad at everyone else for destroying our marriage...


The relationships that I have had with Moroccan and Algerians have been very postitive. Some of them honestly have been very open about using Americans for papers and basically have told me, girl, you know the deal , what are you doing? I have an opinion on why they blend so easy in the USA. I think its the proximity to Europe and the relationship with France .....language has a great deal to do with it.

I will say it and I will say it again. No one wants to feel not wanted or desired.... As much as I loved the palestinian I married and loved from Ramallah, for the life of me I would never never never ever do it again. The Algerian I am married to was NOT supposed to be a relation for me. I met him in Algeria doing work on a book.
Do I torment him because what has happened to me? Sadly yes. Have I seen and continue to see women affected by greencard fraud? Yes. Should I be quiet about it? Probably. When someone is getting used they usually wont listen anyway and its not till its over do people really need to tell her she is loved and wanted. Getting used for ANY reason can make a person fall apart. I sadly feel like its better if I do not say anything because I want to be happy and post on this forum. Notice everyone used and abused just drifts away and doesnt post anymore. Yes you have seen the women hurt and used. Are they still posting? Not really.. They usually just leave. With no one to talk to.. Sometimes blaming themselves. Its not their fault they were born Americans and someone wanted what they have. Its also not an excuse if you were born poor to emotionally manipulate a woman into believing she is everything to you, taking her love trust and money, and she puts her whole life out there, and boom when you get what you want, leave her. Does this happen? Yes. To deny it is lying to yourself. Is there any forum to talk about it? No. If you talk about it, it depresses people. If you do not talk about it, then when women are screwed over , they have no reference point.

I absolutely agree that Palestinians do not have a lot in common with Algerians. They are ethnically and culturally very different and Algerians speak French and have a closer relationship with France and Europe than Palestine does. Algeria was successful in throwing out their occupiers. Palestinians were not. Ironically many palestinians have had a difficult time adjusting in Algeria ( there are alot of refugees in Algeria) do to the differences in culture. Even with Algerians all around, many marry within their own. They do not share the same personality or culture with Algeria.
Algeria has not lived under an occupier since 1962. They do not have a monarchy ( king) or a dicator and are truly the only country in MENA that successfully overthrew an occupying country. As corrupt as some people think their government is, its a peoples democracy and that tends to influence their personality. There is no royal family. They lost 1 million in the fight for independence and that victory kind of influences the way they perceive themselves

I think the problem some people have is how black and white the green card issue is made out to me. My first husband was an American. He smoked and liked to get tipsy at times. When we got married, those things didn't bother me much. Later on his smoking started getting on my last nerve. I had no tolerance even for his occasional drunken episode. Now it wasn't the cause for our divorce but it shows regardless of nationality, we change and the our views on things change - including our views on our partner. It is the same with bi-national relationships only there can potentially be many more issues that we feel we can overlook at first, especially when we are in the early throes of love. A guy who isn't in the best situation in his country, perhaps without a job, approaching 30 may feel that to marry and have a better life with a woman who cares about him is worth the sacrifice of not having children if she is beyond child-bearing years. A few years pass. Now his life has changed, he is working, his friends my have settled down and had children of their own, and not having children may not be so easy to swallow anymore. It doesn't mean it was fraud although if he says it is over because he wants to have children, the woman may very well feel it was because he knew from the start it wasn't a possibility. It can be the woman first agreeing to him sending money home but later nagging him about it, it can be that they both thought they could be tolerant of each other's religion but as he gets more religious, that sight of the nativity and Christmas tree get on his nerves. I think far more often than outright fraud where he starts with a plan to leave, both people believe they can accept things in their foreign spouse that will later bite them in the behind - and when a person is in a bad situation like many of these men are, it is all that much easier to convince themselves that they can accept those compromises.

men in their 20s and 30s changing their ways of thinking as they grow older...

Thank you each and everyone of you for posting your advice. I find each piece of advice insightful and helps me to look at myself. I have considered the point made about my own bigotry and possibly there is a grain of truth in it. Here I am married to an Alhusain (Husainy) erh Waleed.

I recalled when I was 12 years old watching the first Iraq war and telling myself I would never marry a muslim and never marry someone name Hussain or Alhusain because of all I'd learned about Saddam Hussain and how he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people the Kurds. At 12 I couldn't understand why someone would use biological weapons like mustard gas against their people to harm them and I thought it was so aweful that muslims must be hateful people and since them I have learned only what the media shows me. So I have to ask myself what part of this is the medias fault for showing a 12 year old the facts to hate muslims in Iraq and maybe all of the MENA and what part of it is my own bias because of the continued spread of this kind of discrimination. My discrimination at that age was only supported by the continuing reports of acts of violence coming from this region for reasons I did not understand. I have linked those acts in a prior post. There are far more than I posted to support my bias and as I said how much of it is seriously my own bias and how much of it is seriously supported by my media and my own culture? What is the truth here? That has been my whole goal in sorting this out here. I am willing to let go of my bias if I am educated on how to do that since apparently after 20 years in my own culture I am not entirely ride of that. Maybe some of you can help me and I am willing and open to that

I used to tell my own parents they were prejudice and bias and they would deny it and swear up and down and left and right that they weren't. But I took sociology classes and I know that the way that a middle class white american female[ sees things is not the same way that a poverty level black female from harlem sees thing. So in some ways I am certain I hold some prejudice or bias or bigotry that others may claim that I do not and even I may think that I do not but some may see it that way.

So please educae and enlighten me. I am comforted by Jenn's comment that asks how many of us harbor that irrational thought that our spouse may be a terrorist. She is right in that it is passing and not a real concern. I am also comforted that it's a 99.9% chance that it is likely. I have to laugh at my myself that I even considered this if that is really the satistics. However I has to put it out there for those that think it but won't admit it. Common it is a real concern that some of us are faced with. Especially when we read those very real and very scary transcripts between Al Quedea members about the message to marry marry us foreign women to get into our country using us to perform their terror acts. We didn't create this scary terror thought of acts but these transcripts are real and sorry if we have to gernalize to a specific region but the chain of events over the course of several decades has suddenly gotten our American attention that "uh hey maybe we have some enemies in the world that we're not entirely concious of." I certrainly became concious of it when Nick Berg got his head lop off in front of me on CNN one morning during my early morning gym workout. That's all I'm saying here.

Yes I laugh at myself for thinking my husband may be any of those things I think about but the era we live in can not leave me denying I don't think about and consider those things that I face in my culture and ask myself "what in the hell am I doing?" That all no more and no less.

[indent][/indent]This is the edit because I ran out of edit time:

Thank you each and everyone of you for posting your advice. I find each piece of advice insightful and it helps me to look at myself. I have considered the point made about my own bigotry and possibly there is a grain of truth in it. Here I am married to an Alhusain (Husainy) erh Waleed.

I recalled when I was 12 years old watching the first Iraq war and telling myself I would never marry a muslim and never marry someone named Hussain or Alhusain because of all I'd learned about Saddam Hussain and how he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people, the Kurds.

At 12 I couldn't understand why someone would use biological weapons like mustard gas against their people to harm them and I thought it was so aweful. I gernerlized that the Muslims must be hateful people and since then I have learned only what the media shows me. Of course that perception has changend from the ages of 12 to 28. So now I have to ask myself what part of that is the medias fault for showing a 12 year old the facts to hate muslims in Iraq and maybe all of the MENA and what part of it is my own bias because of the continued spread of this kind of discrimination.

My discrimination at that age was only supported by the continuing reports or acts of violence coming from this region for reasons I did not understand. I have linked those acts in a prior post. There are far more than I posted to support my bias and as I said how much of it is seriously my own bias and how much of it is seriously supported by my media and my own culture? What is the truth here? That has been my whole goal in sorting this out here. I am willing to let go of my bias if I am educated on how to do that since apparently after 29 years in my own culture I am not entirely ride of that. Maybe some of you can help me and I am willing and open to that.

I did travel abroad several times and become exposed to several different types of media beyond the western one which did help to open my mind and eyes even wider.

I used to tell my own parents they were prejudice and bias and they would deny it and swear up and down and left and right that they weren't. But I have taken sociology classes and I know that the way that a middle class white american female sees things is not the same way that a poverty level black female from harlem sees thing. So in some ways I am certain I hold some prejudice or bias or bigotry that others may claim that I do not and even I may think that I do not but some may see it that way.

So please educate and enlighten me.

I am comforted by Jenn's comment that asks how many of us harbor that irrational thought that our spouse may be a terrorist. She is right in that it is passing thought and not a real concern. I am also comforted by that statisitic it's a 99.9% chance that it is unlikely any of our spouses are terrorists. I have to laugh at my myself that I even considered that if that is really the satistics.

However I had to put it out there for those that think it but won't admit it. It is a real concern that some of us have been faced with even if irrational. At least I have gotten supporting pm's saying such. Especially when we read those very real and very scary transcripts between Al Quedea members about the message to marry forgien women to get into our country using us to perform their terror acts. We didn't create this scary terror thought of acts but these transcripts are real.

Sorry if we have to gernalize to a specific region but the chain of events over the course of several decades has suddenly gotten our American attention that "uh hey maybe we have some enemies in the world that we're not entirely concious of." I certrainly became concious of it when Nick Berg got his head lop off in front of me on CNN one morning during my early morning gym workout. That's all I'm saying here.

Yes I laugh at myself for thinking my husband may be any of those things I think about but the era we live in can not leave me denying I don't think about and consider those things that I face in my culture and ask myself "what in the hell am I doing?" That all no more and no less.

actually, mustard gas is a chemical agent, not a biological one.

Oliva,

Ask and you shall receive.

You may want to read "Reel Bad Arabs" by Jack Shaheen or some of his other works. He has written extensively about how media depictions of Arab/Muslims have shaped American thought. I think Reel Bad Arabs is on DVD now too.

There are also two websites that address some of these issues, in particular the first although the second has some publications meant to combat stereotypes:

ADC.org - this one has local chapters

The Arab American Institute This is a PDF file Arab Americans making a difference - many of these people you will know by name but may not even know are Arab.

Thx for the clarification. I was researching just now what exacatlly was used and I found this: "The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent — that is, a cyanide-based gas — which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time." Source





Thx that's really awesome!

Famous Arabs

Khalil Gibran – Author of the "The Prophet."
Paula Abdul – Singer/dancer
Elias Corey – 1990 Nobel Prize Winner in Chemistry
Shannon Elizabeth – Actress in "American Pie"
Doug Flutie – 1984 Heisman Trophy Winner
Jeff George – First overall pick of the 1990 NFL draft by the Indianapolis Colts. Also played for the Atlanta Falcons, Oakland Raiders, Minnesota Vikings, Washington Redskins, Seattle Seahawks and Chicago Bears.
Dr. Michael De Bakey – Pioneer heart surgeon
Danny Thomas – Actor and founder of St. Jude Hospital
Marlo Thomas – Actress
Helen Thomas – Former Dean of White House Press Corps
Bobby Rahal – Indy 500 Race Car Champion
Darrell Issa and Nick Rahall – United States Congressmen
Casey Kasem – Radio personality
Lucie Salhany – First woman to head a TV Network (FOX)
Jaime Farr – Actor from M*A*S*H
Kathy Najimy – Award winning actress
Christa McAuliffe – Teacher & space shuttle astronaut
Joseph Abboud – Fashion/Clothing Designer
Reem Acra – Bridal designer
Karim Rashid – designer
Shakira – singer
Selma Hayek – actor
Tony Shalhoub – actor
Frederic Fekkai – hairstylist
Norma Kamali – designer
F. Murray Abraham – Academy Award for Best Actor for Amadeus (1984)
Michael Nouri – Movie and Television Actor with dozens of credits, including The young and the Restless and Flashdance
Bill George – Former linebacker for the Chicago Bears and who was elected to the NFL Hall of Fame
Joe Robbie – Former owner of the Miami Dolphins
Candy Lightner – Founder of MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving)
Paul Orfalea – Founder of Kinko's
Waleed & Malik Ali – Founders of MPI, the world's largest home-video distributor of documentaries
Paul Anka – One of America's first pop teen idols
Farouk El-Baz – A scientist who worked with NASA training astronauts in lunar observations. He also helped plan all the Apollo landings and later pioneered the use of space photography to study the earth.
Edward Said – Well-known intellectual, highly respected for his work in literary and post-colonial theory
John L. Zogby - pollster
James Zogby - founder and president of the Washington, D.C.-based Arab American Institute.

Isn't Pierre Omidyar, the founder of eBay, Arab as well?