Father/daughter talk...

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.
One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.
Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.
Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?' She replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over.'

Her wise father asked his daughter, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, 'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!'
The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'

If anyone has a better explanation of the difference between Republican and Democrat I'm all ears.

Um, you already posted this.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13859

Yes I know....I couldn't find it......It's for the benefit of others who haven't seen it.....

That's fantastic!

We've had progressive taxation for many decades now - the rich and the poor are nowhere near equal, nor have any attempts been made to make them so.

still a good illustration

I think it's about as good as "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If
you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head."

Not sure how you would ever make them equal? Consumption tax, which is basically a sales tax? I would think that that would favor the wealthy also. Flat tax would also favor the wealthy. Let's face it, the impact of taxes on the wealthy will always be less than that of the poor.....

Did the daughter go to a state university?

For what it's worth my college only had P (pass) and NP (no pass). GPA's are so overrated, especially when it comes to working in the real world.

Well, in my line of work though, GPA is important. Very tough to get hired with a low GPA. If you don't have it on your resume, they will ask.

Where's the sense of achievement and the incentive to achieve in such a system? Without recognition, which is the usuall reward, I fail to see students doing anymore than just coasting along and just getting by.........




Ditto.....

Ah, quoting Churchill...well...sort of.

What do you call the person who got a "C" in medical school?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Doctor...

Perhaps, but that "Doctor", as a result of his/her "C" isn't going to be getting any scholorships nor interest from the top, and most prestigious Hospitals to satisfy his/her internship, right?

That's silly, Steven. Of course GPA matters. None of the desirable firms will even look at a fresh grad if they don't have their GPA listed.

I agree it means less with experience.

Not every doctor practices in a prestigious hospital... not every hospital is prestigious

When was the last time you asked your doctor what their GPA was?

I didn't say that....I said there's competition to do internships, and residencies at the most prestigious hospitals.....Those Med graduates with the highest grades stand to win the coveted positions....It's the Hospitals, as a condition of employment, that would solicite that information. Hopefully, it contains more than P/F !

Yea, like for doctors and the like

Exactly. At some point, experience becomes more important than GPA and test scores; however, if someone is fresh out of school and lacks said experience, that GPA (and whatever tests may be necessary for the profession in question) can be very important.

I'm with you, GPAs are highly overrated. There is book smarts and practical smarts. I remember back in college a girl that never got less than a 4.0. However, when you put here in a real world situation, she could not function. She lacked people skills and the ability to work hands on. That 4.0 was because she could memorize text books and lectures and fill in little bubbles. A high GPA, IMHO, only proves you can pass examinations. It does not guarantee you can do the job any better than the 2.0 student.

Exactly, it all comes down to the original article. The docs who get higher GPA's in high school will get into a better college, then into a better med school, then into a better, higher paying facility. Of course there are docs that party their way through med school and get C's, but they're not going to rank as high up as the other docs in their field. All docs do NOT get paid the same and they do NOT perform the same. In reference to the original article again, why should the C doc be put in the same category as the A+ doc? Or get paid the same? So in conclusion GPA DOES matter.

In that kind of system, you achieve because you have something called integrity. And it's not like professors don't see you for who you are anyway. So if you're doing really well, you'll be getting good recommendations, which can be worth more than GPA depending on the field. In mine, the work I do is worth much more than a GPA. Which is a good thing because my program is 100% pass/fail. (They put this into place to cut down on backstabbing and encourage collaboration.)

Sure, a good GPA doesn't say how well you work with people, but a 4.0 at least shows that you have a good work ethic. The 2.0 student obviously didn't take pride in his work or feel it necessary to try hard. Because of his low GPA, he probably also couldn't have gotten good internships, student jobs or study abroad opportunities so will come to the job less well rounded and probably less prepared.

Well, I think a better distinction between a Republican and Democrat could be had by asking which of them has it on their platform that ALL children should be able to attend a college or university of their choice, work hard and get that 4.0, REGARDLESS OF THE CHILD'S FINANCIAL ABILITY TO PAY FOR THAT EDUCATION.

oh Becca, stop being logical...

lol I'm doing my best to steer the conversation away from the OP, Becca, stop making sense!

No need to "try".....The first posts is for pure entertainment and not really meant to inspire further discussion. Facts are facts.....

I wouldn't mind hearing how troll thinks the tax code should be revamped to make taxes "equal" between the affluent and the poor......

ooooh, do I sense a duck coming....

I can't agree with you there. A 4.0 does not mean you have a stronger work ethic. And it goes beyond people skills. I know plenty of 2.0s that work as hard or harder in the field than their book smart counterpart. I'd rather have a steady-handed surgeon that knows just where and how to cut than the one that can name every human disease backwards and forwards.

I think in general people who did not have high GPA's speak to how GPA's mean nothing in the real world. People who did have high GPA's speak to how it means something.

Just an observation...

Kazan -- not to split hairs here, but you're never going to see a surgeon who got a 2.0 in college. You're creating a false dichotomy of book smarts vs. real-life smarts. But my friends in medical school spend a lot of time cutting stuff up, getting hands on training in a hospital, etc. etc. It's not like they spend time poring over books.

But anyway, I was thinking of taking Rey up to Boston next weekend to show him this:

Awww, I love that book!

I think you're looking at two very different components of "being smart." As far as I'm concerned, there's intelligence and then there's wisdom (please, no AD&D jokes).

Intelligence is how smart someone can be or rather, their potential for being smart; as in IQ, it's their capacity for learning. Wisdom is someone's accumulation of knowledge, usually through experience. Both are important and both can be very useful in many different fields.

However, some professions prize certain aspects more than others. If you're going into a "hard science" field versus a "the arts" one, there's a good chance your future graduate school and/or workplace will want to rely heavily on GPA, test scores and reseach experience. Likewise, if you went into "the arts," any future education or work would be more interested in overall experience and examples of your work, usually in the form of a portfolio or demo reel.

So you really can't say "GPA doesn't matter" because it does, or at least, it does a lot more to some professions than sme others. If you happen to dislike the idea of a heavy emphasis on a GPA, then perhaps a field that places less importance on it would be to you liking.

The concept is simple - if the type of work you will be doing requires a certain level of proficiency, you either achieve that level or you don't.

There's no way for an employer to gauge the level of a students proficiency at a certain skill other than to look at GPA's, and any recommendations.

Acquired skills in a profession come with experience and those acquired skills become more important later in ones career.

LOL, I think you're onto something .

I agree with Kazan's Tiger, I've seen that situation many times too.

However, I do stand behind what I said before. A higher GPA is going to open more doors. So in that way it does matter. Unfortunately employers can't possibly know which 2.0's have the skills and which 4.0's don't. They can only go by what's on paper.

Well, I had a high GPA and I can say it proves nothing. I've seen people with less do their jobs better than me and people with higher do far worse. I just don't see a GPA as anything other than proof you can pass an examination


I wasn't saying the 2.0 applied to the surgeon. I'm saying I don't judge people by numbers. I judge them by their actions. To me SATs, GPAs, IQs, and even Credit Scores, mean nothing in all reality. I don't care for any of these methods of judging people, their intentions and abilities to succeed. Wasn't it Einstein that did rather mediocre in school?

Are you sure about that? What are the requirements for many professions - like practicing medicine or law? Show me a medical doctor who's license to practice was handed to him/her because of his GPA.

Doctors don't recieve their license to practice immediately after graduation from medical school......Their internship, and resdiency follows and the criteria for landing an internship at a most sought after, or prestigious hospital, would require good grades and high GPA.

Me too! My mom has a picture of me sitting on one of those ducks at like 10 years old, pretending to not be totally excited (because of course I was way too cool).

Like I said, GPA's are overrated. I didn't mean they're useless. They serve a purpose - that is to give an indication of excellence when it comes to learning, however, that doesn't necessarily mean much.

Here's from a student doctor:

I am a 4.0 student, yet I recognize that including GPA in the medical school application process is detrimental to both the breadth and depth of your undergraduate education.

I reluctantly play the GPA game so that I can get into medical school. I take fewer credits each semester. I take the easier teachers. I study towards the test and not to truly understand the material. I'd love to take more Italian classes until I'm fluent, but won't because I might not get A's. I'd also love to take classes from some of the world-renowned professors that my institution has, but won't because their classes are difficult. Perhaps I am just an idealist, but I believe that undergraduates should be encouraged to take classes with the best teachers (which are not necessarily the easiest or the hardest), and take classes that are of most interest to them, irregardless of ease. For those of us trying to get into medical school, the system creates huge incentives for us not to pursue these ideals. Anything below a B and you have alot of explaining to do. Likewise with a GPA below a 3.5. I even find myself thinking of this when I write my english papers: "How can I approach this topic in a way that will get me an 'A'," rather than, "How can I approach this topic in a way that will most accurately reflect my beliefs."

For adcomms not to include the difficulty of your classes or the number of your credit hours each semester in their analysis of your application makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Wait, yes it does: medical schools are whores to the medical school ranking lists, and they want to beef up there average GPAs at the cost of the quality of the undergraduate experience. But, I suppose you could say that I am just a whore to the medical school admissions commitee by taking light courseloads and choosing easier professors, and thats fine--I want to get into medical school and I follow the incentives that are created for me.

Thats it, now discuss.

EDIT: I'm not saying that GPA should not matter at all, just that it should be a much smaller part of your application. Getting F's or having alot of W's should disqualify you if you don't have valid excuses.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread...549#post5854691

This guy's an undergrad on his way (hopefully for him) to Med School. He thinks that the system, as it is now, is easily manipulated by a fellow such as himself. Perhaps, but this is a single observation and this only reinforces what most of us have said, that is that higher GPA's are a prerequisite to acquiring higher education in sought after schools, or in acquiring that first job at a top firm.

Once you’ve gotten past that first job, then GPA’s are simply ignored and job experience becomes the determining factor in employment.

Yeah, I think people are arguing two different things here - whether GPA's *do* matter vs. whether they *should* matter.

In certain professions they certainly do matter. In my limited experience, I would also say that they should matter, as long as the quality of the school, course, etc. are taken into account.

But to get back to the OP... the inference seems to be that those with less money (or perhaps those who are benefitting from govt programs) have not worked as hard as those who are wealthy and don't need govt programs, which is absurd. I know plenty of people where the reverse is true... my husband for one, who busts his ### for half of what I make not busting mine. Yeah, I went to college and can put some letters after my name... BFD.

Yes, if you have govt programs to help those in need, they are going to be abused in some way by someone. Personally I'd rather take that risk with a few billion than spend a few HUNDRED BILLION waging a pointless war that has made us less safe today than ever before.

Republicans have NO LEGS to stand on until they clean up their party and get their act together. John McCain as the presumptive nominee is a good start, but still just a start. They stand for NOTHING that they used to stand for.



maya

The first post is not logical and therefore nothing can be gained from it aside from a warm fuzzy feeling by those who believe that it makes sense.

maya ----> Tree-hugging dirt worshipper

This post is not logical and therefore nothing can be gained from it aside from a warm fuzzy feeling by those who believe that it makes sense.




maya, god bless you, you're a wonderful person.....

that is not always true. Maybe the Doctor is not a book person, but when he is in action in the ER he is top notch. Some Doctors that are surgen, barley get by in school and text book, but to see them in thier practice is a waiting list because they have the high skills of surgery and are sought out.

Like when I went to aircraft maintenace school, I had a friend from Hong Kong, he was very smart, he got stright a's thru the program, he also work over 40 hrs a week for work and he was getting a Masters in Accounting, of course stright A's. he is book smart but not very good at using hands, Me I am not that much book smart but good with hands.. depends on people and their skills

yogi