Does anyone have any advice? All papers have now been submitted, and we are now waiting for an appointment for the interview. My fiancee has now informed me that before coming here, she and her mother want us to have a Thai wedding. She said that she won't register it yet, so it won't affect the fiancee status. Does anyone know if this is correct, or if we are committing a fraud that could create problems for her getting her green card?
Also, they are asking for sinsord (dowry). I know that sinsord (or sin sot) is customary in Issan, but can anyone tell me what is reasonable? She is over 25 and has a couple of kids. I do love her, and don't want to upset anyone, or show disrespect, but I also want to feel that I am not being just taken advantage of. The amount being asked for is 200,000 baht. This is financially difficult, but if is a fair amount according to custom, I could handle it.
Any advice would really be appreciated.

5300 us dollars?!? and you cover all costs of wedding too i suppose. (uncontrollable laughing) sorry but i think her family will be laughing all the way to the bank. I'd say "sure 5300 dollars is ok. Know your family simply has to provide for airfaire back to united states for her, all visa fees, phone calls, ect."

First of all, this isn't a good topic for the K-1 general discussion area. Second, you can have an engagement ceremony, and as long as you don't register with the Amphur, you will not be legally married in accordance with Thai law.
As far as sin sod is concerned, it is not just an Isaan custom, it is a Thai custom. It is also based on the status of the bride. For example, if she has a college degree, what kind of job she has, if she's never been married, and no children, along with her family status, makes her sin sod higher. To be very blunt... a woman with children does not normally warrent any kind of sin sod, since she is not "pure". I don't have the link to it right now, but you can find many articles written concerning the sin sod, and whether or not it should be paid, and how much to be paid. It is also a Thai custom, not a Farang custom.
In my opinion... 200,000 baht in this case is totally unreasonable. This is something that should have been discussed LONG before now!
Good luck.


This is why you should not post, about this kind of topic, in an open forum, becuase of people like this who are not involved with a Thai, and don't respect other peoples situations.

I agree bad place to discuss.. 200k is way to much for someone with kids.. They should be asking for very little. Not many Thai men will marry a woman with kids!!

If she loves you and wants to be with you. She will stay if there is no dowry.

I have no Dowry.

Her dad just wants someone who loves and will care for his little girl..

And that is me!!

I totally agree with ROI and Tirman!

200,000 baht is way too much for a woman with 2 kids. If she loves you, money would be not an issue here. Most thai people think farang have too much money. When I was in thailand, I always talked about farang have money, big home, new car...this is why your fiancee asked for big sinsot.

Good luck
Bill

I will be the first to admit that I know nothing of Thai custom, but based on what roi_aggie said, it doesnt sound like a dowry is warranted. Does the dowry go to your fiance or her family? If it goes to the family, then maybe a compromise could be met where you set aside some money for her or for her children in an account, maybe for education expenses. If this is the love of your life, then you will find you will most likely be paying for some educational expenses anyway. Good Luck!

Angel

philjac,

Having the wedding is no problem as long as you and she don't bring it to the attention of consular or USCIS officials. It's the registration, not the wedding ceremony, that creates a marriage in Thailand - no registration no marriage, and having a wedding ceremony is not a requirement to register a marriage.

You want to avoid telling the consular officers because, although they will understand the situation perfectly, they may nevertheless ask for a 'certificate of singleness' (see some posts on this 'certificate' in the Sawasdee thread) to have documentation for the file that there has been no registration. You want to avoid telling the USCIS because they will not understand at all and you may have difficulty explaining the situation to their satisfaction.

With regard to the sinsot, what is going to happen to the money? Who is going to get it when the show is over?

What concerns me the most about your situation is the timing of the discussion of these issues. These are things that should have been discussed, if not agreed on, before you and your fiancee began the immigration process. I am concerned about her intentions, and your 'due dilligence', seeing these issues not come up until after the visa application has been submitted.

Yodrak

I just called my Thai friend and asked him about this. He gave me two words: RIP and OFF.

Matt_Stevens,

Depends on who keeps the money after the wedding is over. Sometimes the bride will get it (in which case it further depends on, and may reveal, the true basis of the relationship) and sometimes the groom will get some or all of it back.

Yodrak

Although my fiancee is not from Thailand, I was put into the same situation about the gift of money. The amount was not nearly as much, and since it was a tradition I totally understood. When it came to this point, her father had a private conversation afterwards with me and my fiancee. As he held the envelope in his hand, he explained to me about this tradition, and how important it is to them. Then he thanked me, and began to speak to me about our future together. Althought they could definately use the money, he wanted me to keep it for our future together. He felt it was necessary for me to follow the tradition, but returned the money.

As for the wedding, does Vietnam follow the same rule that it is not a marriage unless you get the certificate? My question is if you were to get married, but don't go for the certificate, and then you get a single status paper months after the last visit showing that you are both single and able to marry, then would this still be a problem? I just don't see why it would be if you are legally single by providing the single status paper. It is nice for the couple to have the ceremony for the beneficiaries parents, since more than likely they won't be ablt to attend the wedding in the US.

What are your thoughts?

$5300 is a lot of money In the Philippines that could be up to 5 years income

www dot stickmanbangkok dot com

This is a rated G site from a Bangkok local who has addressed this exact issue many times

Do a search on his site for "sin sot" or look at the "weekly columns" from the past 6 months.

Good Luck and remember........Mai Pen Rai Kop (no problem)

mike1972e,

Sounds like you married into a good family.

In Thailand marriage consists of going to the local registry office and signing some papers. That's getting married. A wedding ceremony is not getting married, it's just a ceremony and means nothing except to the people involved.

A 'single status paper' would consist of going to the local registry office with a couple of witnesses and writing out an affidavit saying in effect "I have never registered a marriage." The affiant signs the statement, the witnesses sign the statement (or write and sign similar statements of their own), the registry officer signs the statements and stamps it all over with a red seal.

Yodrak

[ quote name='Yodrak' date='Apr 28 2006, 06:11 PM' post='160366']
mike1972e,

Sounds like you married into a good family.

In Thailand marriage consists of going to the local registry office and signing some papers. That's getting married. A wedding ceremony is not getting married, it's just a ceremony and means nothing except to the people involved.

A 'single status paper' would consist of going to the local registry office with a couple of witnesses and writing out an affidavit saying in effect "I have never registered a marriage." The affiant signs the statement, the witnesses sign the statement (or write and sign similar statements of their own), the registry officer signs the statements and stamps it all over with a red seal.

Yodrak

[ /quote]

So if the person who started this thread followed thru with their plans, would getting the single status paper prevent any delay if they told the interviewer that they had a ceremony so their family and friends could take part, but never intended on having a legal marriage? Does this same law apply in Vietnam? DOes a marriage in Vietnam only become a true marriage if it is registered?

Mike,

If philjac agrees to his fiancee's desire to have a Thai wedding ceremony he and she should remain silent about it to avoid the hassle of possibly having to prove that they are not married. Such action is not hiding anything, it's simply not providing information that's not relevant anyway.

I know nothing of the marriage laws of Vietnam.

Yodrak

Hi Philjac,

I just happen to come across this forum and saw your post so I joined so that I could help clear things up, perhaps not...but I'll give it a go...

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

I understand that as a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room

My personal opinion is this: because she has a couple children and she has been married before, the Sin Sod is highly negotiable and the family of your fiance' knows this. As mentioned above, the parents pay for the local wedding from the Sin Sod so you're not expected to pay any more....,( 50k baht should be sufficient explaining to them that you will need the money you have for travel expenses and to help take care of their daughter) I've lived in Thailand for nearly 20 years, 15 of them in Isaan and have witnessed and learned alot....I hope this information has been of some use to you....Cheers, Tom (p.s. I'm also from So.Cal)

the best thing I can do is just tell you how it worked for me:


BACKGROUND: My wife was never married and has no kids, she has a college degree and has lived and worked in BKK for 13 years. She had recently bought an apartment/condo the year before we met, and has been contributing to her familys house and needs in Kalasin since she left. She has two sisters, both married, and both with kids.

during my first meeting with the family in Dec 2004, the night before we did the engagment ceremony, there was a long exchange between me and her family concerning what I was bringing to the table as far as and engagment necklace (they wanted 5 baht gold, I could only offer 1 baht as I was unemployed at the time). We also discussed when I would come back to get married (Dec 2005), and how much money I would offer the family. Eventually we agreed I would provide 4 baht gold and $2K (about 80K B.). Plus, I would pay about $1K for the food/entertainment. So I had about 1 year to save for this. Plus I had to factor in the cost of my round trip flight and her one way ticket back.

We did not start the K-1 visa process until June 2005.

I don't know if that helps you any, but to this day I still think that $2K was still seemingly high. But I figured that I was only going to have a simple civil ceremony here and so this would actaully be a cheap wedding all things considered.

We did, however, get back through donations, about 25K baht. SWEET. that really took the edge of. and can you imagine me carrying around 80,000 baht?. I exchanged funds at the BKK airport before we flew to Khon Kaen. So I had 80 1,000B bills with me!

Cool photos at your website.

mr,

Given your wife's circumstances as you describe them, I think the 80,000 B sinsot was reasonable.

Yodrak

I send you some advice. A Thai lady over 25 with kids is nowhere like a Thai lady with no kids. Mine is 22 and the Dowry I plan on paying is 100,000 baht and that should be good. The Dowry is on the norm higher for women with no kids and younger however once they have kids in the Thai parents eye they are not as desirable so the price goes down. You set the dowry price not them. You will probably have to negotiate some. If you get a book called Thailand Fever it will tell you about the dowry and a lot of other stuff you may want to know.

Hi there, .. first .. I'm Thai. Hope this will help you decide what you want to do .. (sorry if my english is not good good )

Dowry, why dowry? .. Thai thinks this way... after the daugthers get marry, she's not belonging to her family anymore .. but normally every childrens should support their parent when they grow up. Because most Thai people don't have retirement plan, they don't even know what is retirement. Some might have saving money but some minght not. This money could help them when they couldn't work anymore. Most of the case (if the family is not just after money) the bride parent would give the dowry back .. may be half, may be all .. base on her family.

I don't like the sound that your g/f decides to have ceremony AFTER you guys start working on paper to get her to us. I think this should be discuss before you think about starting your life together.. not add it later. But .. wedding ceremony would show your respect to her family. But since she already has 2 kids, the dowry shouldn't be that much.

I think you should talk to her, where would the money goes? do you still have to pay for the ceremony, party, ring??? is it possible to pay less than 200,000? ... don't afraid to talk, you're starting your life together. that money could save to buy a ticket for her to visit Thailand later or bring her family to visit her later .. or do something ..

Good Luck

Hi all.
I agree with ROI and Tirman and you too! why......too much money for Married ? I think she no Love him sure, Love money and want to have farrang for make new house and many things she want.
do you know? I am single but have sin sot for married 70,000 Baht not stupid for get small money but me Love Him no Love his money.
now me live in Kentucky
Good Luck all

80k very is generous given the situation. Congrats! and good luck. Mine was returned but I paid for food and drinks. I did the "money show" route to save face for the family but paid a lot for foor and drinks. My situation was complicated, however, and my plans changed just before the ceremony.

I just went through this regarding the sin sot.
My wife and I were married through the ceremony on March 27. I paid a sinsot (amount is nobody's friggin business in a public forum) but I will say 80% was given back to me......Its a face saving thing, and yes, a Thai marrying a falang will be higher than marrying another Thai. Dont let anyone make your decision for you, follow your gut instinct but I have to agree, with 2 kids is less.
We had a HUGE wedding...and I mean HUGE. I paid more than stated here. I paid 65,000 bhat alone for the flowers, photographer, wedding clothes-organizing company.....
We then went to the US embassy, got the necessary documents and went to the Thail gov. and legally married on March 31, changed her name, etc..........

So, as long as you dont do the swearing in bit at the Amphour, your not legally married, can still do the K-1..........