what are you saying steven?

That's what I'm asking. I'm confused on what represents America and what is safe to bash without actually bashing America?

They represent a part of America, yes.

so why are you asking me? you trying to start something? don't you think i recognize baiting when i see it?

nm

Call it what you will...it's a fair question to ask since there seems to be some elements of America that can be bashed without being called bashing America while other things can't. I'm trying to figure out what qualifies as a representation of America and what doesn't. Somebody must have a master list somewhere, no?

maybe you shouldn't have asked the question in a series of quotes. IMO it looked like an insinuation.

so what makes you think i have this master list?

Oddly enough its not a hard question to answer.

Obviously, nobody here is going to come out in support of the KKK or question anyone who bashes the KKK, let alone tell them that by bashing the KKK, they are bashing America.

Hopefully some people can see the flip side of their argument about people bashing America. When you start thinking about it, it's not so easy to cherry pick what represents America and what doesn't.

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So now quoting blocks of text is an insinuation?



That's a very narrow vision of America. None of which apply to my life.

By the fact that bashing America seems to come up from time to time. For example, the OP related to criticism of our current healthcare system as bashing America. Would she/he also think that criticism towards the gay community in San Francisco as also bashing America? Somebody's got a list...I just would like to see it.

yeah whatever i'm sure that's a good excuse to single me out and try to nail my feet to the floor for whatever strange purpose you had in mind. in the future, why don't you just pm me whatever answer you want to see?

I once asked this question to a group of Australian soldiers I met at a beer tent in Qatar.

Oddly enough, they all answered in unison: Jerry Springer.

I think there's probably several of these lists, Steven...some more PC than others...

i was answering from my perspective. i didn't get the memo that i was designated to answer for you.

Well, they *WERE* Aussies....




oh, sorry, I didn't see the 'to me' part of your answer....

Charles, I wasn't singling anyone out other than those who think that bashing America happens some of the time, but not all of the time...when people criticize elements of America. At least if we could find consensus of what represents America and what doesn't, then we can decide who are the bashers.

Usually one associates the inability to take any criticism as a sign of weakness which is quite ironic if you think about it.

I'll play the devil's advocate. When people from other countries are asked what they think of America, what do they think of? Obviously a certain amount of generalization and stereotyping comes into play. My argument is that the question itself is flawed. You can ask them what they think about Bush, or the war in Iraq, something more specific than what they think of America.

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Which really means nothing - and kinda proves what Steve is saying, no?

i feel it was in very poor taste

Poor taste or no... But not wrong. IMO of course.

we're all entitled to our opinion. but, the thread was rolling along in a somewhat playful, friendly, joking manner then WHAM! i absolutely feel it was in poor taste, wrong & was asked for a not so freindly reason.

Personally I've read and swallowed that "anti-american" horseshit enough times, to want to see the shoe put on the other foot.

If that isn't playful enough for the crowd who usually make those accusations... well...

Tough titty

Its an honest question... and not a trick question either.

so why did you quote me and then complain about my answers with the finishing words of "None of which apply to my life."
i certainly didn't answer steven's question so you could turn into a nag about it.


so in other words, you think i'm one who thinks anyone who criticizes america is bashing it. got it

I'm trying to find out just what is in people's minds when they talk about bashing America. I didn't create this thread or the other countless other ones that pop up from time to time. Is there a consensus as to what represents America and what doesn't? Or what constitutes the bashing of America and what is fair game?

sure you are. so far all you've done is turned it into a charles bashing thread.
if you really are so interested in what represents america, go start a poll.

Sigh... you're smarter than that.

My question "If it sucks so bad here and western culture stinks... why stay?" it baffles me. I bet the same America bashers don't even vote.

People, especially in this forum, stay in the U.S. for their loved ones. Maybe they can't leave their job, or they are divorced with kids. There are tons of reasons, and criticizing a country is part of making the most of staying in a country. It's what it means to be an active citizen or resident.

I would imagine that would all depend on what your definition of 'America bashing' is. Those who critisize America and live in America are probably more likely to vote because that way they can affect change (assuming they are citizens of course) Those who critisize America and live elswhere are of course not very likely to vote in an American election.

strange, i always thought that was called voting, not pissing and moaning.


depends on if they are usc or not. if they are, there's always the absentee ballot.

I think of beautiful, breathtaking, vistas. I think of an immense country with diverse geography and equally diverse peoples and cuisine and communities. I think of technologically-forward and globally competetive businesses. I see a country which is both arrogant and proud; not averse to taking the lead and attempting to set things "right" in countries which they deem as not doing right, yet, when they are in those countries, realizing that they are populated by people who want exactly what they want, but in their own culturally-diverse way. I see a lack of education in global perspective and economics. I see fear and unreasonableness and a great sense of humour. I see love and concern for their fellow human beings, and a desire to do what is right. I see a great nation.

Charles, that's why I said "part of" not "all of." Voting is not the end of civic responsibility. There is so much more you can do.

you're right. cutting back on unnecessary pissing and moaning can keep one from irritating those nearby that don't like whining. suck it up and drive on.

It was a good question that Steve asked - I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to ask it... Its not as though its a difficult question to answer, or a trick question for that matter.

If we really want to get down to it - "Bashing" America as an entity involves labelling the entire country and its people by grotesque stereotypes - the one that suggests, for example, that all Americans are stupid. Of course - its usually foreigners that say these things... people who have either never been here or those who came over for a 2 week vacation, once, twelve years ago, and brought over a headful of racist preconceptions. As usual it comes down to ignorance and lack of willingness to be open-minded about other cultures.

So I tend to scratch my head whenever I hear people who are actually living in the US criticise the Bush administration, or government policies and having themselves and their arguments labelled (by others) as "America bashing".

And yet this "Bashing America / Anti-American / Unamerican" argument, which BTW seems to have been concocted and proliferated by one of the political subsets that passes itself off as "Conservative", never comes into play when those same people feel free to lambast... California (esp San Francisco) or any of the Blue States, Blacks (or any ethnic, religious or other subculture).

Noone calls those folks "Anti-American"... Do they? Perhaps they should... I mean how can the one be "anti-american" while the other is apparently fair game?

Pissing and moaning = "zomg I totally hate driving everywhere in this country."
Civic responsibility = joining a group to promote public transportation, writing a letter to the editor and voting for politicians who support new public transportation.

Can we not "bash" America Basher Bashers?

No.

Interesting to hear a foreigner's perspective.

de Tocqueville had some insightful things to say that still sound relevant 200 years later.

"Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom."
....

"As one digs deeper into the national character of the Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: how much money will it bring in?"

....

"I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look on every new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome trouble, every social advance as a first step toward revolution, and that they may absolutely refuse to move at all."

....

"In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own. "
....

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "

Exactly. I think there's also a distinction between foreigners outside of a country who make generalizations of that country or its people vs. citizens of that country who make generalizations. For example, someone living in the Midwest who generalizes about California being full of fruity people.

Just what does represent America? I'm still waiting for the master list so the yahoos who keep bringing the term bashing America up can explain how some elements of America count and others don't. When you corner them on it...their argument is nothing but a straw man.

I think the whole "anti-Americanism" idea is more a product of our politicians than anything else. When politicians are running for office, they tend to play up this country's strengths while downplaying it's weaknesses (which makes sense; that's a smart strategy, since no voter wants to hear a candidate tell them their country is terrible). The one time a politician may speak of weaknesses is when they're attempting to hurt a rival -- regardless, the goal is the same in that it's to make themselves look better in the public eye.

How "anti-Americanism" falls into it is since politicians (usually conservatives more often than liberals) constantly talk about how "great" America is, the average voter is probably led to believe that in most cases, the U.S. can do no wrong. It's a fair assessment, since most people tend to believe what they hear or are shown (look at the nightly news) and if they're given well rehearsed speeches and complex statistics and graphs proving whatever point the politician in question wants to push through, then it has to be true!

So when a liberal Democrat (or at times, a liberal Republican) says something that's contrary to the "America is the best, the brightest and most wonderful place on Earth" line of reasoning, he or she must be "anti-American" by default, since he or she doesn't believe wholeheartedly in the completely unrealistic ideal.

For the record... I think the United States is an absolutely fantastic country, but there are other countries that are great too. They don't detract from each other, so I don't see why there necessarily needs to be one "ultimate king of the hill." That just seems childish.

the bolded part sure sounds like what goes on in vj.

America wouln't be powerful if McDonalds didn't exist.

funny you should mention that, given you are all fenced in at home. haven't you given up some personal liberty?

Exactly what it is.

Of course Joe McCarthy would disagree... and he seems to have a fair few supporters these days.

While Ben Franklin may have a nice quote there, most things in life, such as security and liberty, are situational. Then there's the definition of "essential" and "temporary" as well. I'm not exactly sure what Franklin meant by this quote (and neither is anyone else for that matter), so all we have is our own personal interpretations. All in all, that doesn't amount to much, since everyone has a different idea of what's "essential" or "temporary" and what's included under the headings of "security" and "liberty."