We emigrated to Florida 3 months ago and my wife is a 'Peoplesoft' programmer and has been looking for her speciality

Today she got the first sniff of the right job but look what it says !

'Because this client is a ministry organization they require all employees to be dedicated to the Great Commission as defined by Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible. If you are a bible believing follower of Jesus Christ and want to use your Peoplesoft experience to directly further the cause for Christ, then we ask that you consider contacting us so we can explore this opportunity together.'

Surely barring applicants on grounds of religion or colour is illegal in the U.S. ?

It's exactly the same as - 'no dogs, no blacks, no irish '

As it happens, we regard all religions as mere superstition, but I feel just as sorry for say a moslem or jew etc etc who was an ace peoplesoft programmer but barred from applying on religious grounds

These people would get shut down in the UK...

alan

To be honest, if the work is heavily related to spreading and celebrating Christianity it probably wouldn't be a nice environment for someone with a strong belief in a different religion to be involved with.

If the job looks perfect in every other respect perhaps a little 'white lie' might be in order to secure more information about what exactly it entails.

That is exactly like saying 'you black people would not be comfortable in our 100% white country club so we exclude you to protect your feelings'

A white lie to get a job ? don't think so...

You see that is the problem, Jesus would not have set up a 'club' to exclude people - these people are so far from christianity and they can't even see it. I am a better christian than they are and I am not even slightly religious. They think it is some kind of club or masonic lodge. It's the kkk without the sheets.

When I set my business up dealing in commodities futures, I should advertise jobs as 'christians not welcome' and see how that goes down.

I assume that would be viewed differently ?

alan

I have to agree with you.............I don't think this should fly.

If I were a non-Christian and qualified, I would apply and see if this topic actually came up at interview. If so, I would be making some phone calls!!!!!

That actually made me laugh. I've never in my life seen that before at any of the jobs I've worked for or applied for. I'm a practicing Catholic and to be honest with you, I'd be kind of weirded out reading that I have to follow Jesus Christ to get the job or stay at a job. It's just too freaky.

Diana

1. I've never seen anything like that, and I've browsed LOTS of IT job sites.

2. I don't believe that's legal. But who knows maybe religious entities are exempt, they're exempt from a lot of laws.

It is illegal to discriminate on basis of religion. But that aside, why would you want to even apply to work for nuts like that? I would think it would be a good clue to stay the hell away if you didn't swing that direction.

This is more than likely a religious non-profit organization. As such, I believe, they are allowed some leeway as to who they choose to hire. If this organization is large enough to be needing a computer programmer, I assume they have some sound legal advice and wouldn't be practicing outright discrimination. There is some skirting the discrimination line here, but probably not ourtight illegal. Dunno, just MO.

Hmm..how convenient that they got to say it...however illegal...right away it turns a certain'kind' of people away...how effective

Sheesh...didn't you know that believing in JC can make you a better programmer? I say that tongue in cheek, but for those with strong religious beliefs, it is an integral part of their lives , that God affects everything in your life.

Just presenting both sides.....personally people need to start leaving religion out of the workplace and government because your own bbeliefs maynaot be everyone's

ETA: I posted twice, my browser froze on me.

Not really. I personally wouldn't want to work someplace where I was expected as part of my job to pray at the beginning of a group meeting (I have seen incidences of this in the UK) and things like that... and I don't have strong religious beliefs of any kind and was also raised to believe that religion should be a very private matter between an individual and their god or gods.

What I meant to suggest was that someone who does not believe in Christianity and believes something else very passionately would probably not feel comfortable promoting Christianity even indirectly by working for such an employer - in the same way that an animal rights activist wouldn't want to work for a cosmetics company that tests products on animals.

I think reading the job ad again would help you understand better and realise that your thread title is misleading and a bit over the top.

'Because this client is a ministry organization they require all employees to be dedicated to the Great Commission as defined by Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible."

It is simply a job requirement. Because of the kind of organization they are and the work they do. What's so strange about that? You wouldn't want to apply for a job for which you dont meet requirements.

Not every IT job is suitable for every IT expert out there - some jobs require specific expertise, work experience etc - every employer advertises jobs to suit their company goals. If this particular employer is a "ministry" organization isn't it logical that as their employee you have to be able to do that ministry - whatever it is?

I don't think this has anything to do with "religious intolerance" as you put it. Just a job ad...

I am a Christian and I would not want to work for a company that wants to furthur the religion of Muslims and I would want to know up front of what the job is about, so I would not waste my time. Maybe they don't want to waste peoples time

Many "specialty" organizations are allowed leeway on who they hire, and religious institutions fall into that category. For example, if you were looking for a pastor for a church you might require that they not only hold a university degree in your particular brand of theology, but that they are actually a practicing person of that particular brand of faith. You could legally exclude a person who holds the same qualifications but does not "believe." (And if you're a Catholic parish you could even disqualify based on gender.)

Theaters and other performance organizations are also allowed to "discriminate" when hiring talent. For example, if the script calls for a white male in the lead role then it is not discrimination to turn away a black candidate who would otherwise meet the qualifications.

Surely a programmer just programs and doesn't minister ?

Otherwise they should advertise for a minister who can program. Does she have to like cats to program for the cat's protection league ?

anyway - the end result is that a skilled specialist is denied a job opportunity because her religious beliefs do not accord with the employer's.

I like the sunshine and the cheap dollar and the easy parking, but the U.S. scares me when it gets like this so I will remain just a resident (Registered ALIEN). This stuff is SO foreign to me and I don't feel part of it. I had just become (gotten) used to all the big flags with gold edges and eagles that reminded me so much of Nurenberg in 1933 but now the rabid religious fervor reminds me of England in 1605 or Spain in 1478

and it isn't jesus' gentle religion - it is organised and punches hard and demands and excludes and plans and tithes mercilessly. When we opened our bank accounts they asked us which church we belonged to and they didn't like it when we said non. The smiles went and we slunk out of there.

I would like to see the U.S. pass laws to make it illegal to exclude job candidates on grounds of religion.

I believe in freedom of religion and freedom of people and the direction here is against freedom. Freedom to be unemployed or freedom to starve if you do not comply is not freedom.

alan

Does it list how much they are paying for this job? My hunch is that it is lower than average, and all the jargin above is code for "this will be a ministry aka - doesn't pay well" so the only people who would WANT this job would be thinking along the lines of serving in this way and not expecting the big $$.. Just a hunch..

Oh my gosh Alan you need to moooooooove!!! LOL!

I have neeeeeever been asked that anywhere. Maybe it's the kind of town you live it or even the neighborhood. But these things are not even asked in Colombia which is a country with 95% "practicing" Catholics.

THAT'S INSANE!!

Diana

dunno - she lost interest at that point...
We were in Wisconsin before which was pretty pagan compared to Florida but like Iran compared to England ..

I suppose I will acclimatise slowly. The flag thing really bothered me but I am used to it now so perhaps the religiousness will slowly fade in my perception..

My second best friend is a minister in the Moravian church in England and he plays cricket and loves beer - he is laid back dude so it didn't prepare me for this level of intensity.

I won't tell my coliseum joke though..

Caesar and his wife are in the coliseum watching the christians being eaten by the lions. Mrs Caesar started crying and Caesar said - never mind dear, they are only christians. She said - no its not that - it's that lion over there - it hasn't got one !

But THAT is your personal preference.

But if being religious IS requirement to be a programmer - a job which I think what you believe in does not affect how good you do your job, personally I have never seen that.

If it was a programming job at... IBM or for some employer who does "everyday" things - obviously, potential employee's religious belief would have nothing to do with their suitability for employment. But this company states in their job ad that their specialty is religious ministry so they want you to be able to do the job at the level they need.

For argument sake, let's say that a part of job description is "to develop an interactive bible program for sunday School, year 1 to 5". Wouldn't you think that they want you to share their beliefs before they let you teach their children? Besides, they are very specific about the job: "(if you) want to use your Peoplesoft experience to directly further the cause for Christ, then we ask that you consider contacting us...".

This is just a simple job ad posted by some Christian Church that knows what they need and that wants to keep doing their job well. Give them a break.

To the OP: I understand your frustration and/or disappointment but I'd say they are both misdirected here. Religion, Jesus, or some organised Church are not discriminating against your wife for her lack of religious conviction. I hope she finds a great job soon. Good luck!

Well, it looks like they are advertising for a programmer who can minister

Were you trying to open an account at some church bank catering for "members only"??? Never heard of a bank asking such a question!

I am Muslim & went to Cathlic school. It is possible to get perfect 10 on Catholic Religion subject while maintaining being a Muslim. What I believe has nothing to do with my grade on that subject.

No need to be defensive. Nobody is bashing the organization (at least not me). I am just saying personally I have never seen job ad like that.

Hey... I agree with you.
And I guess I was replying more to what alen said (OP), even if I included your quote. I thought he was "blaming" the employer where it wasn't deserved, so... yeah, I felt like chiming in To me it just seemed that OP had read too much into that job ad and shared his very strong reaction with us, so I felt like offering a different "reading".

I know about having a non-Catholic students in a Catholic school. And of course you can learn the subject and get straight "A" without changing your faith. By the way, well done for earning top marks for religion class and keeping your own

I agree - I was indoctrinated as a 'primitive methodist' and boy are they primitive. I liked all the stuff that big J had to say and I still feel like a big fan of his, but as a really nice guy and an ancient socialist only. I peeled off when they told me about an old man (trillions of years old) coming out of the clouds and impregnating a virgin without asking her husband first and just by waving his ... finger ! I don't approve of that sort of thing and I think the air force should stop it.

I digress

I won't hide the fact that I AM bashing the organisation and I bet if any of em get sick then they would be the first ones to hire a superb moslem doctor rather than an incompetent evangelical christian...all their 'keep it in the family' would soon go out of the window.

That's why I say it's not right to say 'our computer cannot be programmed by a non believer'.

We make all this fuss about saudi not allowing women to drive etc and then we get into that same business by saying that non - evangelicals are not allowed to program jesus' computer


These excluders should think that one day they might be the excluded ones...I bet their candidates are excluded from my wife's vote.. America is about inclusiveness not excluding certain people. It's supposed to be a melting pot and not a dividing pot


alan

I want to know where in Florida this is! I have never been asked any of these questions in the last 2 years I've been here!

FL is more religious than NY, but I've had no bad experiences like this!

My mum works at a Brethren school that follow... slightly more alternative forms of Christianity. She is Christian but no longer religious (following divorce etc) but she respects their beliefs and works to maintain the ethos of their culture within the school... In that situation I can't see how they could discriminate...

However - if it really is spreading the word of a religion or trying to "sell" an idea that perhaps not everyone would want to hear then I can understand how someone who doesn't practice said religion might not want to work in that position...

I'd want to have a good look at the job description but at the same time I don't think it should deter her from applying - I would suggest that if she gets to interview she demonstrates her open-mindedness and ability to respect the beliefs of her colleagues/employers and work to maintain that ethos in the workplace if that is required... sometimes you just need tact

If you think Florida is bad, try living here in Utah. The "Church" rules EVERYTHING here. And if you don't belong to the "Church" you can forget about making a good friend, or getting further in your career too.

I just said I DON'T think Florida is bad.

I've gotten the impression since being here (which hasn't been long) that Americans seem to have a different idea about being a 'good Christian' than I'm used to in Britain. The pastor who married us, for example, was quite happy to speak about 'dam Mexicans taking over the country' - which I found to be racist and VERY un-Christian.

Secondly, we went for a short break to Holmes county in Ohio (Amish country) after our wedding, and stayed at a b&b who was run by this guy who was preaching to us over the breakfast table. While I am Christian myself (though not practising), my husband is not religious at all, and we BOTH felt very uncomfortable to have the beliefs of this guy pushed on us during what we hoped would be a relaxing break. He bombarded us with prayer cards, tried to convince us to go to the Creation museum in greater Cincinnati (over and over and OVER again), and made assumptions about us based on his pre-judgment. I found this to be un-Christian based on what I was taught in Church.

I realise that these are only two people out of millions, but it certainly made me wary about joining a church here.

This is not related to the original post, but I noticed someone mentioned they'd noticed similar 'un-Christian' behaviour, just wanted to add my experience.

I agree. Some people are just too OTT. They focus more on religion than on a relationship with God.

I appreciate the postings so far as I am trying to find my feet here in the U.S.

One poster basically said it was ok for such an employer to demand that all the employees should be 'on message' with the aims of the organisation and in this case the aims were religious.

Most other posters are religious people who see christianity as as gentler religion and it should not be so exclusive or prescriptive

One poster mentioned the English style of christianity which is about love and understanding and reaching out to others and this was my background and I still hold on to that culture (despite being an unbeliever in a god) . It was a shock to meet the more militant style in the U.S. where religion can be used as a weapon rather than something gentle.

As a resident I can't go tub thumping and telling Americans what their culture should be, but I think the more that Americans are introduced to wider views, the better the decisions they will make about the direction of things in the U.S.

Coercing people at the cost of their livelihoods was not jesus' way I am pretty sure. When he asked people to throw away their fishing nets and be fishers of people, he didn't say - 'or I will burn them anyway'
The march towards authoritarianism is a one way march and giving actual veto powers to these people rather than them leading by moral example is really dangerous.

The current crop of presidential candidates has plenty of people who are quite capable of pursuing their own churches agenda through actual political power - though they say they will restrain themselves - and its scary.

alan

I'd also bet it is a Christian organization hiring hence their requirements. Though I worked at World Relief in the past and they didn't require someone be a christian to work there.

But if this is only one instance, you can't generalize about Christians in general in the US. And some people are overly bitter towards Christianity and start throwing around generalizations just as bad as they accuse the Christians of doing against them.

As for diversity at workplaces in the US, my husband works in Tampa and in his office, he(a devout Christian) works with another Indian who is Hindu, someone from Iran who is Muslim, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and an atheist. They all get along really well too. His may be a rare case.

But it's not just any job - it's working in the Church (and not just any church - the fundamentalist church...) So nobody who's not a fundamentalist would want to work for them in the first place. The key words there are 'Great Commision' and 'Bible-believing' - not just 'Christian', but a particularly narrow-minded exclusionary type of Christianity. I've been a Christian for twenty years but they wouldn't want me working there either...

If you're a lion-tamer who needs an assistant you're not going to hire the local Persian-breeder to help you just because they're experienced with cats...

(btw part of 'religious freedom' is that the Churches get the right to discriminate against people as much as they want when it comes to who they employ... Joe Average can't get away with it, but Joe Average Ministries can.)

If churches can require that you follow their faith, can tobacco companies require that you smoke? Starbucks demand that you only drink their coffee? Porn sites require that you have a certain amount of porn in your home at all times? McDonald's require that you eat nothing but Big Macs and fries?

I worked for HP/Foxconn and didn't own (will never own) an HP computer.

I detest how much Xianity has insinuated itself into society in the US. Why can't we be more like the UK in that regard? I'm f@#$ing tired of driving and seeing "Got Jesus?" signs and other such CRAP everywhere. You want Jesus to program your computers? Then f#$%ing hire Jesus, you freaks.

That's a message of hope and I thank you for it... every outsider fears organisations in the new country which might be out to get him, and thats why the immigrants in the UK fear the national front so much. Perhaps I am doing what they are doing in not realising that the danger is there, but it is a minority and as long as everyone is vigilant about 'take overs', it need not be an everyday fear...

cool....something for other workplaces to strive for....

Religious organizations in the US are given much more lattitude (by law) in who they hire. They are exempt from certain decisions we would otherwise consider bias. As I said before, religious organizations are not the only organizations who enjoy this lattitude. The entertainment industry is also allowed to discriminate when it comes to talent. If they need a black guy in the lead role, they are lawfully allowed to "discriminate" against an otherwise equally qualified white woman or man. Your local news station is allowed to discriminate when it comes to hiring TV anchors. If 2 candidates have the same qualifications, but one has more "camera appeal," they can hire based on that. The list goes on and on.

As an avowed atheist, I don't have a problem with this policy. It would be the height of ridiculousness to expect a religious organization to hire people who don't support their beliefs. Starbucks and the other companies mentioned are businesses. They exist for the sole purpose of making money for their stockholders. A church has very different goals and requirements. For once we have a law that takes into account common sense, and that's really a good thing.

The fact is that it's not just technical skills and ability to do the job that are criteria for employers these days. When I got made redundant in the UK back in 96, we were given presentations on the state of the job market. One thing that was made very clear was that employers are looking for a person who can not only meet their technical requirements but, even more importantly, would be someone who would fit well into their organization; would adapt to their culture and would be able to blend in well with their team. I see no problem with an organisation being up front about the kind of people they feel would be a good fit; by presenting the job opportunity in this way, it saves a lot of wasted time on behalf of candidates and of interviewers. I don't see anything wrong with a faith based organization preferring people who would be a good fit with them and placing equal or greater importance on compatibility than competence; it's normal practise in the business world these days; just the criteria may be different i.e. a teatotal person isn't going to fit too well in an organization where the team routinely goes to the pub after work and they would be right to reject a candidate who they feel would not be able to be a 'full' team member, however they define it.

That ministry has only been more upfront about their criteria, nothing wrong with that.

What if another organisation felt that they had a lot of staff who were confederate flag waving pickup truck drivers with gun racks in their cabs - and they said 'no blacks' in the advert so as not to cause problems in the office. It is true to say a white person would fit in better there in those circumstances

You might say that a black person would not feel comfortable there and would not want to apply, but surely everybody has a right to sit on any seat in the bus and apply for any job that is advertised (and get it too if they are good enough) ?

As soon as an employer panders to the prejudices of the staff then they are on shaky ground...

As soon as an employer filters people on their race or colour or personal religious beliefs then it's wrong in every circumstance except where the religious belief IS the job - eg a clergyman

A computer programmer does not need ANY particular belief to carry out their job and their colour and race does not matter either..

A logical extension would be that the toilet cleaners at this company need to be fervent christians too ?

and the contractors who fix the heating and mow the lawns ?

If that is not necessary then why a computer programmer ? Where is the line ?

The fact is that these people have two motives

1 So their staff don't mix with unbelievers and become corrupted with doubt

2 So their money does not leave the church - they are guaranteed to have a portion of salary returned to them as tithe

There is no evangelical role for a computer programmer

I worked a contract job in Indianapolis. I was told it was for a hospital, and that I would be inventorying computers and eventually replacing them. When we were given the location later, I saw that it was for St. Vincent's hospital. I didn't expect any issues. When I arrived for work, we were "briefed" that we were working for CSC/Ascension - a catholic hospital IT company. We were instructed on how to address the Sisters, what we could or could not say, what we could and could not wear, etc. I lasted a week. Keep your religion out of my job - especially when you don't tell me upfront about it.

I contracted with a bank. Had to wear a suit in the middle of summer while female members of staff could pretty much dress how they wanted. I was in the army, was instructed on how to address NCO's and Officers and what I could and could not say. I didn't throw my toys out of the pram because they were the conditions of the job.

There have been too many cases of disgruntled employees sueing companies for unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal when the problem has been that they couldn't adapt to the environment. Companies, of whichever flavour, are far more choosy about who they employ these days as it makes as much sense to make sure someone is going to fit in and be happy as it does to make sure they're technically qualified for the job.

Fair enough that they didn't tell you up front but it seems to me that you didn't do your research in advance of the interview and so you were as much at fault for being not fully prepared.

Hellooooo.... contract job. No interviews, no way to "research" before taking it.

Platy -

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with addressing a nun in a certain manner, nor being informed on the best manner to speak to her. No more problem than I would with being informed how to speak to the Mayor or a Judge.

I really think that has more to do with 'decorum' than religion. Honestly.

I couldn't agree more! The church is bent on stuffing their ideas in our faces. I'm strong enough to ignore the brainwashing, but I shouldn't have fight off all that want to bring me to their kingdom. They can all continue fighting and dying for their precious beliefs, but keep me out of it!

Not as far as I know. The Islamic school here has a christian teacher and they aren't allowed to hire teachers based on whether they are muslim are not but I don't know if that's the school's policy or the law's. I would hope they wouldn't hire a non-muslim to teach the Islamic studies classes

I feel a new bumper sticker coming on - the christians will probably torch my car for it and see nothing un-christian about that but there has to be a counterbalance to this onslaught...

I reckon a mild one:


EVOLVED IN THE YORKSHIRE DALES
CREATED A FLORIDA RESIDENT

That should confuse em long enough for me to get away before they righteously smite me with their 9 millimetre guns on behalf of jesus who never had one to my knowledge


alan

I agree with that - religious teachers and preachers is fair enough but I hope a muslim school would allow a christian cleaner to maintain the toilets

People flying their own flags in their own country bothered you?

If the job is with a nonprofit organization and especially if it is based in a religious context it is not illegal to discriminate on religious basis in the hiring process. This is relatively new and happened with the Bush administration. It became an issue for me when I was an intern but as I was already working they could not fire me based on religion.

Mags was the same way. I think it's just the overt "patriotism" here that puts some people off. Ya gotta admit that the US does go overboard on the "Go USA!" thing...