Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Marriage Fraud: she disappeared with Permanent Residency (10 yrs.)
VisaJourney.com > General Family Based Immigration Topics > Effects of Major Family Changes on Immigration Benefits

Pages: 1, 2, 3
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (Mags @ Jan 1 2008, 02:26 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 1 2008, 12:24 PM) *
QUOTE (Mags @ Dec 31 2007, 03:57 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Dec 31 2007, 11:19 AM) *
And I can't resist saying that DM is absolutely correct. yes.gif We can't be certain the OP is even reading the thread at this point but the discussion is both civil, and on topic.


We can't be certain that any OP of any thread is reading them, but we shouldn't assume they aren't or won't come back at some point to see if there is any advice worth taking. And at no point have I said that either of you have been uncivil. wink.gif

QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Dec 31 2007, 10:28 AM) *
QUOTE (Mags @ Dec 30 2007, 05:21 PM) *
He said, she said. I understand that there is validity in correcting misinformation in threads here and of course I'm all for it as a rule. But in this particular case it is taking over the whole thread and, if I was the OP, I'd be thoroughly confused by now. I can see this discussion going on until the cows come home and still achieving nothing. smile.gif

I'm going to ask that you both chill out and take a step away from this thread now. Thanks.


Mags,
In all due respect, I think this discussion is germane to the OP's questions. Pushbrk's words "he said, she said" relate to the USC and the alien's version of why the marriage ended...it is not a reference to what I have said and what he is saying.

To ask us to step away from this thread is wholly inappropriate, firstly and doing the OP a disservice as well. We are discussing the likelihood that anything the OP would report to USCIS would bring about results.


Actually, my useage of the terms "he said, she said" were in reference to you and Pushbrk and not Pushbrk's quote. I wholly understand WHY you are both discussing this and at no point have I mentioned that you were being rude or uncivil...because you weren't.

However, there comes a point when two people have completely taken over a thread and there is constant back and forthing - this gets confusing and can make it hard to weedle out any useable information. THAT'S why I posted what I did.

I actually value both of you here on VJ, you both provide a different aspect to VJ and are both informative, however I must just clarify that the reason I asked you both to take a breather is simply because it was taking over the thread - not due to any lack or civility or similar behaviour.

Perhaps, in the future, when quoting each other it might be best to remove all but the previous quote, this can makes things a bit clearer and can seem less cluttered when reading. biggrin.gif


Well, I'm shocked at your response, Mags. I'll offer this for contemplation, Mags, and quite frankly, after this commentary I can't see much reason in continuing to participate in a forum if one is limited in the number of responses one should post. After all, isn't that the whole premise of a site like VJ? To encourage discourse and to offer direction to a member?

If this had been banter back and forth that was completely off topic, I could understand intervention and a request to decease. And further, if you peruse other threads on VJ, if it had been completely off topic, chances are it would have been overlooked! But since it is ON TOPIC, but between primarily two members, and not more, then it is disallowed. Quite possibly it was a case that no other members had much else to offer. Quite possibly, it was that I was asked for my imput! But to have offered it and then be cautioned for participating is a bit much.

Regardless, if this isn't the most wishy-washy position to take, I don't know what is. I'm gobsmacked.


Once more I will stress that I added my comment purely for the OP and clarity in this thread, hence my previous suggestions. Nothing more.


Mags,
I'm not wishing to pick apart this issue...but, if you made the choices you did to maintain clarity, what was unclear? We were discussing on topic, and I can't imagine the OP not being able to follow the line of discussion. However, if he had come back to query, I can understand your intervention. You were speculating that he'd find it difficult. But without the OP suggesting that he was finding the topic difficult to follow, isn't that being a bit overreaching as an Admin? And if it is the case that each topic should only flow in one very clear direction and in concert with the original question, how do you propose that 90% of the discussions on this site manage to veer from that? I've seen oodles of threads go from a discussion about point A into wagers on who's going to win a fight, popcorn offerings and the likes. How come you took such a stand here?

Anyway....
The OP asked for suggestions on proven methods. Pushbrk and I were offering his point of view and my personal experience with regard to what USCIS deems compelling enough to launch an investigation ex facto. I'd say that is clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!
mawilson
This basically sums it up pretty accurately:

QUOTE (pushbrk @ Dec 30 2007, 03:41 PM) *
An allegation isn't enough to result in a revocation. The immigrant has rights and USCIS has to prove the allegation in court. Suspicions and he said, she said evidence rarely results in a deportation order. The service knows this and so doesn't waste time on investigations and court costs unless there's far more to go on than one party's suspicion.

Although it's possible, in theory, to get someone's green card revoked, it would take some pretty
damn strong evidence to convince USCIS to even look at it. "I don't like her anymore, she's a fraud"
is not gonna cut it.
Aussielad
clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!
[/quote]


what is your crucial reason??? not to be rude or anything, but have you yourself passed through the experience and know what it's like??? (just asking a civil question, not to offend) or do you yourself work for or have worked for USCIS???

*smiles at the mermaid* smile.gif
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (Aussielad @ Jan 2 2008, 12:09 PM) *
QUOTE
clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!



what is your crucial reason??? not to be rude or anything, but have you yourself passed through the experience and know what it's like??? (just asking a civil question, not to offend) or do you yourself work for or have worked for USCIS???

*smiles at the mermaid* smile.gif



Yes, that's why I take those to task that post without experience.
pushbrk
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 2 2008, 09:48 AM) *
QUOTE (Aussielad @ Jan 2 2008, 12:09 PM) *
QUOTE
clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!



what is your crucial reason??? not to be rude or anything, but have you yourself passed through the experience and know what it's like??? (just asking a civil question, not to offend) or do you yourself work for or have worked for USCIS???

*smiles at the mermaid* smile.gif



Yes, that's why I take those to task that post without experience.


It would be far easier to understand where you were coming from, if you would give any specific example. All you've indicated is the cryptic, "written" evidence. We/I can use our imaginations but apparently you don't need to. Won't you help us understand any specific example that supports your assertion? Your "yes" answer to the above "or" question isn't helpful either. As in, "Are you a man or a woman"? Answer, "Yes".
JohnnyQuest
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 2 2008, 04:14 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 2 2008, 09:48 AM) *
QUOTE (Aussielad @ Jan 2 2008, 12:09 PM) *
QUOTE
clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!



what is your crucial reason??? not to be rude or anything, but have you yourself passed through the experience and know what it's like??? (just asking a civil question, not to offend) or do you yourself work for or have worked for USCIS???

*smiles at the mermaid* smile.gif



Yes, that's why I take those to task that post without experience.


It would be far easier to understand where you were coming from, if you would give any specific example. All you've indicated is the cryptic, "written" evidence. We/I can use our imaginations but apparently you don't need to. Won't you help us understand any specific example that supports your assertion? Your "yes" answer to the above "or" question isn't helpful either. As in, "Are you a man or a woman"? Answer, "Yes".


I'd like to speak up for te Mermaid (without speaking for her) on this one because perhaps she isn't well known to you.

DM has been a member of this community for some time. Someone referred yesterday (in another post - now deleted) to persons either no longer participating here, or who rarely visit. Mermaid is part of that group. As I mentioned yesterday, each of these individuals usually had an area of expertise by virtue of their experience or by study of that area. In the past, some latitude was afforded these members simply because others in the community trusted their experience and counsel. This is the respect for other members I believe was alluded to yesterday. Within any real-life or virtual community of students, there end up being people you trust that what they are saying is factual.

I'm not saying one should flatly take someone at their word. BUT - there are times when privacy should be respected. It's up to DM what she discloses here.

There are just times when a link or a soul-baring confession should not be necessary. I hope that is something you can relate to and afford to others in this community.
JohnnyQuest
****
pushbrk
QUOTE (JohnnyQuest @ Jan 2 2008, 03:02 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 2 2008, 04:14 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 2 2008, 09:48 AM) *
QUOTE (Aussielad @ Jan 2 2008, 12:09 PM) *
QUOTE
clearly valuable and 'spot on' information.

And in closing, (as is suspect I shan't spend much time on VJ after this) I have contributed to this thread for a very important reason. Actually my participation on VJ, as a whole, has been focused on this forum...for a very crucial reason.

To all that would be inclined to claim that USCIS does little to feret out individual cases that involve marriage fraud, think again!



what is your crucial reason??? not to be rude or anything, but have you yourself passed through the experience and know what it's like??? (just asking a civil question, not to offend) or do you yourself work for or have worked for USCIS???

*smiles at the mermaid* smile.gif



Yes, that's why I take those to task that post without experience.


It would be far easier to understand where you were coming from, if you would give any specific example. All you've indicated is the cryptic, "written" evidence. We/I can use our imaginations but apparently you don't need to. Won't you help us understand any specific example that supports your assertion? Your "yes" answer to the above "or" question isn't helpful either. As in, "Are you a man or a woman"? Answer, "Yes".


I'd like to speak up for te Mermaid (without speaking for her) on this one because perhaps she isn't well known to you.

DM has been a member of this community for some time. Someone referred yesterday (in another post - now deleted) to persons either no longer participating here, or who rarely visit. Mermaid is part of that group. As I mentioned yesterday, each of these individuals usually had an area of expertise by virtue of their experience or by study of that area. In the past, some latitude was afforded these members simply because others in the community trusted their experience and counsel. This is the respect for other members I believe was alluded to yesterday. Within any real-life or virtual community of students, there end up being people you trust that what they are saying is factual.

I'm not saying one should flatly take someone at their word. BUT - there are times when privacy should be respected. It's up to DM what she discloses here.

There are just times when a link or a soul-baring confession should not be necessary. I hope that is something you can relate to and afford to others in this community.


Respecting privacy isn't a problem. However, DM hasn't indicated there's a privacy issue preventing her from providing context to her assertions by providing an example. One cannot have it both ways. "Trust me. I know what I'm talking about." just doesn't hold water when, in my experience (by that I mean the experiences others have shared with me) An allegation isn't enough to result in a revocation. The immigrant has rights and USCIS has to prove the allegation in court. Suspicions and he said, she said evidence rarely results in a deportation order. The service knows this and so doesn't waste time on investigations and court costs unless there's far more to go on than one party's suspicion.

I don't think I or anybody else would disagree that USCIS cares about and investigates "Marriage Fraud" cases but we're talking about an unconditional LPR and a spouse that thought the relationship was "suspect" after her arrival even though the marriage had endured more than two years.
rebeccajo
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.
pushbrk
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.



To gain immigrant benefit through petitioning for an immigrant visa or in adjusting from non-immigrant to immigrant, the alien and USC couple must demonstrate that the relationship is bona fide. In order for USCIS to take away a benefit already conferred, the USCIS would have to prove to the Immigration Judge that the marriage is not bona fide. Absent much documentation, written, that could demonstrate an alien's intent, the Service might be ill-prepared for the task.

BUT, in the simplest of terms, pushbrk seems to be looking at the matter without consideration of one, very important source of information.

THE USC's involvement in the matter. Circumstantial evidence, coupled with an allegation, by the USC spouse, that the alien spouse is suspected of having deceived the USC into marriage for immigrant benefit, is sufficient to launch an investigation. And an investigation could derive facts that USCIS would need to show a preponderance of evidence.
pushbrk
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 3 2008, 04:09 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.



To gain immigrant benefit through petitioning for an immigrant visa or in adjusting from non-immigrant to immigrant, the alien and USC couple must demonstrate that the relationship is bona fide. In order for USCIS to take away a benefit already conferred, the USCIS would have to prove to the Immigration Judge that the marriage is not bona fide. Absent much documentation, written, that could demonstrate an alien's intent, the Service might be ill-prepared for the task.

BUT, in the simplest of terms, pushbrk seems to be looking at the matter without consideration of one, very important source of information.

THE USC's involvement in the matter. Circumstantial evidence, coupled with an allegation, by the USC spouse, that the alien spouse is suspected of having deceived the USC into marriage for immigrant benefit, is sufficient to launch an investigation. And an investigation could derive facts that USCIS would need to show a preponderance of evidence.


You keep making statement to the effect of the bolded above without any examples. Now you add "circumstantial evidence" but none has been mentioned even as a hypothetical example. I don't doubt that USCIS has launched investigations based on allegations, but those allegations need some sort of support beyond one party's nonspecific, or even specific unsupported suspision, in order to be worth the expense and time, or to bring fruit. I'm not overlooking the possiblity. I'm just saying it would and should take more than what has been presented.

I take it no examples are forthcoming, so I'm going to do as the USCIS would probably do and not waste any more time with this.
rebeccajo
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 07:21 PM) *
I take it no examples are forthcoming, so I'm going to do as the USCIS would probably do and not waste any more time with this.


*sigh*

I realize you aren't satisfied and want hard evidence. I think we tried to have a nice conversation with you.

But you still had to get kind of rude.

I really wish you could see that kind of comment isn't 'straight talk' but just rather - unneccessary.
Mononoke28
The OP and anyone going through a case like this should consult it with a lawyer to find out what can be done. It will probably all end just like all nasty divorces do. His team will come up with all kinds of reasons of why they think she used him and her team will do their best to prove him wrong. In the end, she will probably end up keeping her residency and he'll end up with less money in the bank. happy.gif

Diana
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 07:21 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 3 2008, 04:09 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.



To gain immigrant benefit through petitioning for an immigrant visa or in adjusting from non-immigrant to immigrant, the alien and USC couple must demonstrate that the relationship is bona fide. In order for USCIS to take away a benefit already conferred, the USCIS would have to prove to the Immigration Judge that the marriage is not bona fide. Absent much documentation, written, that could demonstrate an alien's intent, the Service might be ill-prepared for the task.

BUT, in the simplest of terms, pushbrk seems to be looking at the matter without consideration of one, very important source of information.

THE USC's involvement in the matter. Circumstantial evidence, coupled with an allegation, by the USC spouse, that the alien spouse is suspected of having deceived the USC into marriage for immigrant benefit, is sufficient to launch an investigation. And an investigation could derive facts that USCIS would need to show a preponderance of evidence.


You keep making statement to the effect of the bolded above without any examples. Now you add "circumstantial evidence" but none has been mentioned even as a hypothetical example. I don't doubt that USCIS has launched investigations based on allegations, but those allegations need some sort of support beyond one party's nonspecific, or even specific unsupported suspision, in order to be worth the expense and time, or to bring fruit. I'm not overlooking the possiblity. I'm just saying it would and should take more than what has been presented.

I take it no examples are forthcoming, so I'm going to do as the USCIS would probably do and not waste any more time with this.


I'm not meaning to be evasive, it's just that I would have thought you could imagine what such evidence could be. There's a whole range of possible pieces of evidence that could prompt USCIS to act on a USC's concern. In fact, I'll put it into simple terms. You know the effort each and every couple make to amass evidence to demonstrate the bona fide nature of their marriage? Well, prompt unravelling of those types of evidence shortly after being awarded a green card, could be indicative of a plan.


I don't know if it was in this thread or not, but I indicated that in my opinion, something as benign as correspondence between the parties (in the form of letters, emails, or chats, for example) that indicated that all was well between the couple and then a sudden disappearance without apprising the USC spouse of her whereabouts, could be enough to cause the Service to wonder if this was a carefully plotted scheme. In the OP's case, I can't say what type of evidence there is, since he has not posted much. In other cases, it can be the establishing of separate bank accounts, separate credit card accounts, failure to place one's spouse as beneficiary to another's estate.

I'd like to summarise my thoughts on this matter, here. Unless you have been through an event as horrendous as learning that your spouse had ulterior motives, and as far as I can see from your profile, you haven't, then to categorise the OP's sense of his wife's actions as merely an unactionable suspicion is out of place! No alien, intent on acquiring permanent residency through deceit, would be so foolish as to leave obvious evidence along the way. Some make mistakes, and by accident, leave a paper trail, but for the most part it is the sum of a lot of rather small pieces of evidence all pointing to one goal. Of course, it takes time, effort and oftentimes requires assistance to assemble, but a report presented with most of it pieced together would be more apt to result in an investigation.

QUOTE
The service knows this and so doesn't waste time on investigations and court costs unless there's far more to go on than one party's suspicion.


That one party's "suspicion", as you are wont to call it, is THE party as far as USCIS is concerned! USCIS offers immigrant benefit to the alien at the request of the USC (provided the relationship is "real") to the benefit of the USC. If the USC then informs USCIS that he was victimised by the alien and deceived into marriage, they have an obligation to investigate. Frankly, we should be appalled by anyone that offers a recommendation that nothing be done in a case involving unilateral fraud.
pushbrk
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 06:35 AM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 07:21 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 3 2008, 04:09 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.



To gain immigrant benefit through petitioning for an immigrant visa or in adjusting from non-immigrant to immigrant, the alien and USC couple must demonstrate that the relationship is bona fide. In order for USCIS to take away a benefit already conferred, the USCIS would have to prove to the Immigration Judge that the marriage is not bona fide. Absent much documentation, written, that could demonstrate an alien's intent, the Service might be ill-prepared for the task.

BUT, in the simplest of terms, pushbrk seems to be looking at the matter without consideration of one, very important source of information.

THE USC's involvement in the matter. Circumstantial evidence, coupled with an allegation, by the USC spouse, that the alien spouse is suspected of having deceived the USC into marriage for immigrant benefit, is sufficient to launch an investigation. And an investigation could derive facts that USCIS would need to show a preponderance of evidence.


You keep making statement to the effect of the bolded above without any examples. Now you add "circumstantial evidence" but none has been mentioned even as a hypothetical example. I don't doubt that USCIS has launched investigations based on allegations, but those allegations need some sort of support beyond one party's nonspecific, or even specific unsupported suspision, in order to be worth the expense and time, or to bring fruit. I'm not overlooking the possiblity. I'm just saying it would and should take more than what has been presented.

I take it no examples are forthcoming, so I'm going to do as the USCIS would probably do and not waste any more time with this.


I'm not meaning to be evasive, it's just that I would have thought you could imagine what such evidence could be. There's a whole range of possible pieces of evidence that could prompt USCIS to act on a USC's concern. In fact, I'll put it into simple terms. You know the effort each and every couple make to amass evidence to demonstrate the bona fide nature of their marriage? Well, prompt unravelling of those types of evidence shortly after being awarded a green card, could be indicative of a plan.


I don't know if it was in this thread or not, but I indicated that in my opinion, something as benign as correspondence between the parties (in the form of letters, emails, or chats, for example) that indicated that all was well between the couple and then a sudden disappearance without apprising the USC spouse of her whereabouts, could be enough to cause the Service to wonder if this was a carefully plotted scheme. In the OP's case, I can't say what type of evidence there is, since he has not posted much. In other cases, it can be the establishing of separate bank accounts, separate credit card accounts, failure to place one's spouse as beneficiary to another's estate.

I'd like to summarise my thoughts on this matter, here. Unless you have been through an event as horrendous as learning that your spouse had ulterior motives, and as far as I can see from your profile, you haven't, then to categorise the OP's sense of his wife's actions as merely an unactionable suspicion is out of place! No alien, intent on acquiring permanent residency through deceit, would be so foolish as to leave obvious evidence along the way. Some make mistakes, and by accident, leave a paper trail, but for the most part it is the sum of a lot of rather small pieces of evidence all pointing to one goal. Of course, it takes time, effort and oftentimes requires assistance to assemble, but a report presented with most of it pieced together would be more apt to result in an investigation.

QUOTE
The service knows this and so doesn't waste time on investigations and court costs unless there's far more to go on than one party's suspicion.


That one party's "suspicion", as you are wont to call it, is THE party as far as USCIS is concerned! USCIS offers immigrant benefit to the alien at the request of the USC (provided the relationship is "real") to the benefit of the USC. If the USC then informs USCIS that he was victimised by the alien and deceived into marriage, they have an obligation to investigate. Frankly, we should be appalled by anyone that offers a recommendation that nothing be done in a case involving unilateral fraud.


You're offering the fact that "they can and they might" and the opinion "they should". I'm agreeing they can and might and should in certain cases but are unlikely to without significant evidence. There's just not enough difference there to continue disagreeing. Maybe so and probably not are no more different than half fulll and half empty.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 4 2008, 12:18 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 06:35 AM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 07:21 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 3 2008, 04:09 PM) *
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 3 2008, 06:15 PM) *
QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Jan 3 2008, 01:09 PM) *
There's something kinda bugging me about this I'd like to throw out there.

What difference does it make - and I'm not being a smarta$$ - if the marriage is past the two year point, or that it was blessed by a consular officer? If I have read this case correctly, the marriage was spent with the husband and wife mostly living apart in a long distance relationship. Correct me if I am wrong.

I remember googling (ages ago) about LDR's for greencards. I tried to find the article again and I apologize that I can't find it now. At any rate, I recall having read that the duration of a relationship is statistically moot when it comes to marriage fraud. The writer of that paper stated that the time spent on a relationship really meant nothing to a desperate fraudster. It takes time to cultivate and groom the innocent petitioner. To start over with someone else would mean a waste of time invested on the first person, and more time lost on finding someone else to bring them to the US. The expert in the piece I read claimed it made more sense to the intending immigrant to stick with the 'sucker' they already had on the hook.

As far as the CO's blessing of the marriage via the visa - I really don't believe that holds a lot of weight insofar as some sort of 'relationship validation'. CO's go on what is hand-carried to them by the beneficiary, who stands to benefit by producing whatever evidence will get them their visa. If the CO has the paperwork necessary to mark their file, and they aren't getting 'cultural vibes' to ding 'red flag' bells, they'll approve the visa. They aren't omnipotent and they can be duped - CR1, K3 or K1. I even recall seeing a thread here where members were queried as to how little evidence of the relationship they sent in with successful I-130 files. I think we can agree here that in many cases, the bar is fairly low for evidence of the bonafides.

Soooooooo.......it makes sense to me that if a beneficiary flees within a few weeks of arrival, the service might well be interested in locating that person. If anything, the length of time they put into their 'marriage' and the 'evidence' they produced for the visa interview might well be just they evidence needed against them in such a scenario.


The only significance I attach to the two year mark is that the result is an IR1 visa and non-conditional LPR status. I also don't doubt the service would be interested in locating this person if there were something far more significant to go on that what has been disclosed. I agree that time in the marriage COULD work against them IF some other significant evidence of marriage fraud were presented.

So far, it's nothing more than he said he thought the relationship suspect as soon as she arrived and she can say anything she wants, like, "After living with the man for two weeks, I decided we couldn't make it work." These things do happen, so without something else to go on, the woman has LRP rights and they have to drop it. They know this, so absent more evidence, they do nothing. That's the way I see THIS situation.

I'm aware of another couple where not only was the relationship suspect upon arrival but her emails to her USC sugar daddy boyfriend she was sneaking out to sleep with and take money from were presented to USCIS. The couple is now divorced, and this was only a two year LPR status but USCIS has done nothing. This is just one of many. Surely other members are aware of similar cases.



To gain immigrant benefit through petitioning for an immigrant visa or in adjusting from non-immigrant to immigrant, the alien and USC couple must demonstrate that the relationship is bona fide. In order for USCIS to take away a benefit already conferred, the USCIS would have to prove to the Immigration Judge that the marriage is not bona fide. Absent much documentation, written, that could demonstrate an alien's intent, the Service might be ill-prepared for the task.

BUT, in the simplest of terms, pushbrk seems to be looking at the matter without consideration of one, very important source of information.

THE USC's involvement in the matter. Circumstantial evidence, coupled with an allegation, by the USC spouse, that the alien spouse is suspected of having deceived the USC into marriage for immigrant benefit, is sufficient to launch an investigation. And an investigation could derive facts that USCIS would need to show a preponderance of evidence.


You keep making statement to the effect of the bolded above without any examples. Now you add "circumstantial evidence" but none has been mentioned even as a hypothetical example. I don't doubt that USCIS has launched investigations based on allegations, but those allegations need some sort of support beyond one party's nonspecific, or even specific unsupported suspision, in order to be worth the expense and time, or to bring fruit. I'm not overlooking the possiblity. I'm just saying it would and should take more than what has been presented.

I take it no examples are forthcoming, so I'm going to do as the USCIS would probably do and not waste any more time with this.


I'm not meaning to be evasive, it's just that I would have thought you could imagine what such evidence could be. There's a whole range of possible pieces of evidence that could prompt USCIS to act on a USC's concern. In fact, I'll put it into simple terms. You know the effort each and every couple make to amass evidence to demonstrate the bona fide nature of their marriage? Well, prompt unravelling of those types of evidence shortly after being awarded a green card, could be indicative of a plan.


I don't know if it was in this thread or not, but I indicated that in my opinion, something as benign as correspondence between the parties (in the form of letters, emails, or chats, for example) that indicated that all was well between the couple and then a sudden disappearance without apprising the USC spouse of her whereabouts, could be enough to cause the Service to wonder if this was a carefully plotted scheme. In the OP's case, I can't say what type of evidence there is, since he has not posted much. In other cases, it can be the establishing of separate bank accounts, separate credit card accounts, failure to place one's spouse as beneficiary to another's estate.

I'd like to summarise my thoughts on this matter, here. Unless you have been through an event as horrendous as learning that your spouse had ulterior motives, and as far as I can see from your profile, you haven't, then to categorise the OP's sense of his wife's actions as merely an unactionable suspicion is out of place! No alien, intent on acquiring permanent residency through deceit, would be so foolish as to leave obvious evidence along the way. Some make mistakes, and by accident, leave a paper trail, but for the most part it is the sum of a lot of rather small pieces of evidence all pointing to one goal. Of course, it takes time, effort and oftentimes requires assistance to assemble, but a report presented with most of it pieced together would be more apt to result in an investigation.

QUOTE
The service knows this and so doesn't waste time on investigations and court costs unless there's far more to go on than one party's suspicion.


That one party's "suspicion", as you are wont to call it, is THE party as far as USCIS is concerned! USCIS offers immigrant benefit to the alien at the request of the USC (provided the relationship is "real") to the benefit of the USC. If the USC then informs USCIS that he was victimised by the alien and deceived into marriage, they have an obligation to investigate. Frankly, we should be appalled by anyone that offers a recommendation that nothing be done in a case involving unilateral fraud.


I'm agreeing they can and might and should in certain cases but are unlikely to without significant evidence.



YOU, as far as I've ascertained, are neither expert nor experienced to determine what is significant. The USC's testimony that he or she was deceived into marriage by the alien for residency purposes is significant.

I'm curious. Since you have asked me over and over again for corroborating information, can you please cite your source that indicates that USCIS considers anything we've discussed not important or significant enough to bother to investigate?
pushbrk
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 10:51 AM) *
YOU, as far as I've ascertained, are neither expert nor experienced to determine what is significant. The USC's testimony that he or she was deceived into marriage by the alien for residency purposes is significant.

I'm curious. Since you have asked me over and over again for corroborating information, can you please cite your source that indicates that USCIS considers anything we've discussed not important or significant enough to bother to investigate?


I hope these quotes come out ok. I've seen many cases reported on forums where the immigrant left in what seemed to be obvious fraud to the USC spouse, where USCIS has done nothing, even in the face of significant evidence of criminal activity. I gave a glaring example earlier in the thread.

Where we're getting separated here is that you are considering the opinion of the agrieved USC as factual evidence. An allegation isn't evidence.

Examples:

You wrote...

I indicated that in my opinion, something as benign as correspondence between the parties (in the form of letters, emails, or chats, for example) that indicated that all was well between the couple and then a sudden disappearance without apprising the USC spouse of her whereabouts, could be enough to cause the Service to wonder if this was a carefully plotted scheme.

The above is just a case of "he said" absent any "she said". Further your assertion is only "could be". I agree it could be but consider it unlikely to be enough.

Then you wrote...

In other cases, it can be the establishing of separate bank accounts, separate credit card accounts, failure to place one's spouse as beneficiary to another's estate.

My wife and I have a joint account but she has an account of her own too. She has a separate credit card I helped her obtain in order to build credit in her own name. A "failure" to do something can be interpreted multiple ways. All the above adds up to nothing more than maybe. For every maybe, there's a maybe not. USCIS knows this. They also know it is human nature to leave out the part of the story that makes us look bad. One can alledge their spouse left for no reason and that they suspected insincerity from some point forward but then the spouse can equally state, their reasons, left out or not mentioned by the "he" in the "he/she".

USCIS needs to determine whether there's enough credible evidence to back up the maybe before they expend resources to determine whether to find the details of the maybe not. They don't have enough resources to go on such wild goose chases. They don't have enough resources to go after some of the cases I wish they would, where there's more than just he said/she said.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (pushbrk @ Jan 4 2008, 02:29 PM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 10:51 AM) *
YOU, as far as I've ascertained, are neither expert nor experienced to determine what is significant. The USC's testimony that he or she was deceived into marriage by the alien for residency purposes is significant.

I'm curious. Since you have asked me over and over again for corroborating information, can you please cite your source that indicates that USCIS considers anything we've discussed not important or significant enough to bother to investigate?


I hope these quotes come out ok. I've seen many cases reported on forums where the immigrant left in what seemed to be obvious fraud to the USC spouse, where USCIS has done nothing, even in the face of significant evidence of criminal activity. I gave a glaring example earlier in the thread.

Where we're getting separated here is that you are considering the opinion of the agrieved USC as factual evidence. An allegation isn't evidence.

Examples:

You wrote...

I indicated that in my opinion, something as benign as correspondence between the parties (in the form of letters, emails, or chats, for example) that indicated that all was well between the couple and then a sudden disappearance without apprising the USC spouse of her whereabouts, could be enough to cause the Service to wonder if this was a carefully plotted scheme.

The above is just a case of "he said" absent any "she said". Further your assertion is only "could be". I agree it could be but consider it unlikely to be enough.

Then you wrote...

In other cases, it can be the establishing of separate bank accounts, separate credit card accounts, failure to place one's spouse as beneficiary to another's estate.

My wife and I have a joint account but she has an account of her own too. She has a separate credit card I helped her obtain in order to build credit in her own name. A "failure" to do something can be interpreted multiple ways. All the above adds up to nothing more than maybe. For every maybe, there's a maybe not. USCIS knows this. They also know it is human nature to leave out the part of the story that makes us look bad. One can alledge their spouse left for no reason and that they suspected insincerity from some point forward but then the spouse can equally state, their reasons, left out or not mentioned by the "he" in the "he/she".

USCIS needs to determine whether there's enough credible evidence to back up the maybe before they expend resources to determine whether to find the details of the maybe not. They don't have enough resources to go on such wild goose chases. They don't have enough resources to go after some of the cases I wish they would, where there's more than just he said/she said.


I'll agree that he evidence presented needs to be credible. What isn't necessarily required is an "open and shut" piece of evidence, as in a written confession or declaration to someone that the alien intended to exit the marriage once residency was conferred. What you deem credible and what the Service deems credible may vary. One individual event may not appear to demonstrate much, but in conjunction with other events, facts, circumstances it can amount to much more. I think it important to bear in mind that USCIS has an obligation to deter misuse of visas and status. USCIS also has an obligation to serve the citizenry, and in turn the country.

With respect to the separation of accounts, alone, it doesn't amount to much. Agreed. There are many individuals that keep their financial lives distinct. Yours is a choice, but once again you are not also at the same time intimating or alleging your marriage to have been a tool to gain residency. Once again, the circumstances alter the potential impact of such actions. In the case of a US citizen and alien that commingled for the purposes of demonstrating the bonafides of marriage; established the status of beneficiary to the alien for purposes of demonstrating not only a commitment to the union created but also to USCIS that the US citizen claims the marriage is genuine, etc. a sudden attempt on the part of the alien to *profit* from any conference made by the USC, the true purpose unbeknownst to the USC initially, can present enough of a question that USCIS could determine that further investigation is appropriate.

In summary, as I indicated earlier, the likelihood that anything will come of a report of unilateral fraud made by a USC is directly related to a number of factors. When the report is made, how it is made (as in how much evidence, however benign it might appear on its face, is offered to corroborate the USCs concerns and suspicions; actual events that have occured; the current disposition of the marriage, the current location of the alien, and the alien's stage in the process. If there is yet another hurdle in the alien's path, whether still in the marriage or recently divorced, USCIS might simply choose to await that submission in order to impose closer scrutiny upon the alien to determine whether or not residency has been awarded to someone ineligible or unworthy.

I can't affirm or deny what you have read. I can only speak of my own experience, naturally.
fathe
I am going the a similar experience as what the OP sites. My husband also left me shortly after arriving in the US, he has permanent unconditional residency as well. I called the USCIS and they told me that I might be able to do something about it and they had me make an infopass appointment. So I made the appointment, took the morning off from work and when it was finally my turn to speak to an agent I was practically laughed out of the room. I was told that I asked to have him here and I got what I asked for so I would have to live with it!

I was not satisfied with this answer so a few weeks later I called ICE and they told me that if I presented very strong evidence of fraud then they would investigate it. So far my evidence consists of phone records with calls to the other woman, emails that I uncovered from him to her BEFORE he came to the US, and emails and sexy pictures exchanged after he arrived here --includung a very incrimnating chat transcript. I also have complete contact information on the other woman including her address, place of work and all phone numbers and email addresses.

I think that is a lot of evidence, but I still doubt that it will be enough to bring about any action. My lawyer flat out told me to just get a divorce and accept that there was nothing I could do.

BUT, you never know until you try!
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (fathe @ Jan 4 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I am going the a similar experience as what the OP sites. My husband also left me shortly after arriving in the US, he has permanent unconditional residency as well. I called the USCIS and they told me that I might be able to do something about it and they had me make an infopass appointment. So I made the appointment, took the morning off from work and when it was finally my turn to speak to an agent I was practically laughed out of the room. I was told that I asked to have him here and I got what I asked for so I would have to live with it!

I was not satisfied with this answer so a few weeks later I called ICE and they told me that if I presented very strong evidence of fraud then they would investigate it. So far my evidence consists of phone records with calls to the other woman, emails that I uncovered from him to her BEFORE he came to the US, and emails and sexy pictures exchanged after he arrived here --includung a very incrimnating chat transcript. I also have complete contact information on the other woman including her address, place of work and all phone numbers and email addresses.

I think that is a lot of evidence, but I still doubt that it will be enough to bring about any action. My lawyer flat out told me to just get a divorce and accept that there was nothing I could do.

BUT, you never know until you try!


I'm sorry for your experience, but it is really critical that the evidence demonstrate that the marriage to you was for immigrant benefit alone. Evidence of adultery, however painful it is to discover, might only demonstrate that you married a person who engaged in infidelity. Now if there is something within those communications that suggests that he needed the residency in order to live here, that's another thing.

Please do what you need to do to heal and by all means pursue it if you believe you have enough information to show his ulterior motives.
Nutty
QUOTE (Morgan @ Dec 27 2007, 05:19 PM) *
If the original intentions of the spouse, who has already been granted the "unconditional" Permanent Residence for 10 years, is immediately suspect upon arrival in the US, and within 2 1/2 weeks has gone to live somewhere else, how can she have her Visa removed: only if it is proven to have been fraudulently obtained from the beginning upon entering into a marriage, or by divorcing her, by a combination of these things, and/or by some other means? (We're talking about New Jersey here.)

She also does not state her present whereabouts or address. At this point, since she is not living with her spouse, can she lbe liable for not having reported an address change? What role does of Affidavit Support by the US-citizen husband play in all of this?


I don't think it matters when the intent to commit fraud occurs as long as you can prove there has been fraud.

I can only suggest you contact the USCIS to explain the situation and that you do not know where the wife is at this point. If she tries to register or adjust status, she won't be able to.
DJ+Ten
Forgive my ignorance as a newbie here, but reading some of the above posts gave me that feeling you get when you flip to the last page of the Calculus book to see how it ends. I'm glad this discussion came up though because I'm wondering how concerned the USC should be about his/her vanished immigrant spouse. I have already had two US marriages end in divorce. What are the liabilities of the USC, if the spouse disappears (fraudulently or otherwise)? Is there a discussion of the subject that you might refer me to?
fathe
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 03:55 PM) *
I'm sorry for your experience, but it is really critical that the evidence demonstrate that the marriage to you was for immigrant benefit alone.


This is exactly why I have doubts about the likelihood of catching a permanent resident for marriage fraud --it would be nearly impossible to prove their original intent.

In my case the closest thing I have to proving this is that in a counseling session (couselor could vauch,) my husband confessed that he had considered not coming to america because he was in love with someone else and didn't want to leave her. That does not prove that he married me with the intention to use me, but it does prove that when he emigrated here he had an alterior motive.

And I fear even that is not proof enough. I guess that is why most people just say get a divorce and get over it, it is incredibly difficult to prove marriage fraud.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (fathe @ Jan 5 2008, 01:16 AM) *
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jan 4 2008, 03:55 PM) *
I'm sorry for your experience, but it is really critical that the evidence demonstrate that the marriage to you was for immigrant benefit alone.


This is exactly why I have doubts about the likelihood of catching a permanent resident for marriage fraud --it would be nearly impossible to prove their original intent.

In my case the closest thing I have to proving this is that in a counseling session (couselor could vauch,) my husband confessed that he had considered not coming to america because he was in love with someone else and didn't want to leave her. That does not prove that he married me with the intention to use me, but it does prove that when he emigrated here he had an alterior motive.

And I fear even that is not proof enough. I guess that is why most people just say get a divorce and get over it, it is incredibly difficult to prove marriage fraud.

fathe,

It isn't difficult to prove marriage fraud at all, if you have the correct evidence. What is difficult is demonstrating your worst fears without evidence. In your case, your husband may simply have been torn between you and another woman. BUT, were there some sort of evidence that could show that these two were involved prior to your marriage and had never ended their relationship and that they had planned, ultimately, to live together in the US, compliments of the PR that your husband would acquire, automatically, as a result of marrying you...then that is compelling evidence of them conspiring to commit marriage fraud.
mtracksport
Fact of the matter is that they are no longer together. As she has already got the 10 yr card there is nothing that can or will be done. I noticed in a previous post something about her needing to adjust. she doesn't have to. the card is unconditional. Chances are she has already notified the goverment of her where abouts and that information is not available to the spouse or his attorney. the big question is why she left? Before we all assume it is fraud let me tell you about my brother in law. He had a nice young lady from the philipines that he was married to when he was in the service. They were apart for 3yrs when the paperwork finally came through. (seeing each other several times a year). She came to the U S 2yrs ago and within 3 wks they were seperated and divorce was filed by her. he went to the local uscis office and reported marriage fraud. Was told in no uncertain terms that the minute the I-130 was approved the marriage was deemed valid. he submitted additional info and was told again the same thing. Seems that there is precidence in a court case and the service was not about to get involved. turns out later that my brother in law was a jerk and expected her to be a servant/slave to him. it cost him $4700.00 trying to get her card taken away.All to no avail. best thing to do is cut your losses and move on.
Converse34
There are always two sides to every story. A lot of people are so quick to throw the term "fraud" around. It is a serious allegation, in any context.
Morgan
RESOLUTION OF MY THREAD TOPIC ABOUT MARRIAGE FRAUD:
Recently in an interview at Immigration, the matter was explained -all put in writing. They say her present employer will be informed by Immigration within 30 days (when he makes her Social Security payment from wherever he is) that her Residency has been retracted and a warrant for her deportation has been served! The matter will be completely taken care of within 90 days. It was all rather cut and dry, since she disappeared almost immediately upon arrival. What they do upon arrival in the US is taken into consideration and not the two years beforehand. The Affidavit of Support is also void.
Morgan
QUOTE (Morgan @ Dec 27 2007, 05:19 PM) *
If the original intentions of the spouse, who has already been granted the "unconditional" Permanent Residence for 10 years, is immediately suspect upon arrival in the US, and within 2 1/2 weeks has gone to live somewhere else, how can she have her Visa removed: only if it is proven to have been fraudulently obtained from the beginning upon entering into a marriage, or by divorcing her, by a combination of these things, and/or by some other means? (We're talking about New Jersey here.)

She also does not state her present whereabouts or address. At this point, since she is not living with her spouse, can she lbe liable for not having reported an address change? What role does of Affidavit Support by the US-citizen husband play in all of this?



RESOLUTION OF MY THREAD TOPIC ABOUT MARRIAGE FRAUD:
Recently in an interview at Immigration, the matter was explained -all put in writing. They say her present employer will be informed by Immigration within 30 days (when he makes her Social Security payment from wherever he is) that her Residency has been retracted and a warrant for her deportation has been served! The matter will be completely taken care of within 90 days. It was all rather cut and dry, since she disappeared almost immediately upon arrival. What they do upon arrival in the US is taken into consideration and not the two years beforehand. The Affidavit of Support is also void.

If you would like to know what cirumstancial evidence was submitted, just ask.
pushbrk
QUOTE (Morgan @ Jan 7 2008, 01:49 AM) *
QUOTE (Morgan @ Dec 27 2007, 05:19 PM) *
If the original intentions of the spouse, who has already been granted the "unconditional" Permanent Residence for 10 years, is immediately suspect upon arrival in the US, and within 2 1/2 weeks has gone to live somewhere else, how can she have her Visa removed: only if it is proven to have been fraudulently obtained from the beginning upon entering into a marriage, or by divorcing her, by a combination of these things, and/or by some other means? (We're talking about New Jersey here.)

She also does not state her present whereabouts or address. At this point, since she is not living with her spouse, can she lbe liable for not having reported an address change? What role does of Affidavit Support by the US-citizen husband play in all of this?



RESOLUTION OF MY THREAD TOPIC ABOUT MARRIAGE FRAUD:
Recently in an interview at Immigration, the matter was explained -all put in writing. They say her present employer will be informed by Immigration within 30 days (when he makes her Social Security payment from wherever he is) that her Residency has been retracted and a warrant for her deportation has been served! The matter will be completely taken care of within 90 days. It was all rather cut and dry, since she disappeared almost immediately upon arrival. What they do upon arrival in the US is taken into consideration and not the two years beforehand. The Affidavit of Support is also void.

If you would like to know what cirumstancial evidence was submitted, just ask.


Yes, please, if you don't mind. It would be helpful to know.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (Morgan @ Jan 7 2008, 04:15 AM) *
RESOLUTION OF MY THREAD TOPIC ABOUT MARRIAGE FRAUD:
Recently in an interview at Immigration, the matter was explained -all put in writing. They say her present employer will be informed by Immigration within 30 days (when he makes her Social Security payment from wherever he is) that her Residency has been retracted and a warrant for her deportation has been served! The matter will be completely taken care of within 90 days. It was all rather cut and dry, since she disappeared almost immediately upon arrival. What they do upon arrival in the US is taken into consideration and not the two years beforehand. The Affidavit of Support is also void.


Morgan,

Well, first, I'm glad you gained some resolution and can begin the healing process knowing that her immigration fate is now in USCIS' hands.

Secondly, I'm glad your experience will place all other speculation as to any purported futility of USC\s' requests for USCIS to consider their concerns, at rest. Frankly, it's disconcerting to witness people that haven't any experience in these matters refuting the information of those who have and that is offered as guidance.
archie07
QUOTE (Morgan @ Jan 7 2008, 04:15 AM) *
RESOLUTION OF MY THREAD TOPIC ABOUT MARRIAGE FRAUD:
Recently in an interview at Immigration, the matter was explained -all put in writing. They say her present employer will be informed by Immigration within 30 days (when he makes her Social Security payment from wherever he is) that her Residency has been retracted and a warrant for her deportation has been served! The matter will be completely taken care of within 90 days. It was all rather cut and dry, since she disappeared almost immediately upon arrival. What they do upon arrival in the US is taken into consideration and not the two years beforehand. The Affidavit of Support is also void.

To whom was the deportation warrant served? Has your wife already been issued a social security card? Your timeline doesn't show any dates of arrival.
Morgan
THIS IS WHAT WAS HANDED IN TO THE IMMIGRATION OFFICER IN THE INTERVIEW (FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH). EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE AND EVERY PLACE IS DIFFERENT, AND SOME PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM CAN NOW ANALYZE THE MERITS AND WEAKNESSES OF THIS ALL THEY WANT TO, BUT, IN THIS CASE AND AT THIS TIME, IT SEEMS TO HAVE GOTTEN THE DESIRED RESULTS. NONETHELESS, I THANK PEOPLE FOR HAVING RESPONDED WITH THEIR PARTICULAR VIEWPOINTS CONCERNING THIS TYPE OF SITUATION, -ESPECIALLY IF THEY DID SO WITH THE INTENTION OF TRYING TO BE OF SOME HELP.

Re: (USC's name)
(Foreign spouse's name) SS No. :_ _ _ -_ _ - _ _ _ _
•In (date), X and I met while I was living in ____.

•In (date), I came to the US to ___ in ______ (place).

•In (date), I returned to (country).

•In (date), X and I connected with each other again and started a relationship.

•On (date), we were married in a civil ceremony.

•On (date), we were married in a religious ceremony.
oImmediately following the religious ceremony she started acting indifferently towards me. I assumed that this was because we had financial difficulties. She insisted that I come to the US to get her Residency papers as soon as possible, even though I wanted us to spend more time together as a married couple and had no intentions of leaving (country) for a while. I was enrolled to go to the university in (country), but she insisted on my going to the US since I am a US citizen so that we could have a better life together.

•In (date) after only a few months spent together, I came to live in the US to work in order to be able to do the Affidavit of Support that we would need for her to get her Residency.
o For the two years, I remained in the United States working, while X was in (country) During these two years I was not able to visit her because my job did not allow me to have vacation time and I could not afford to lose the job, in order to comply with the Affidavit of support requirements.
o We communicated by telephone and e-mail as I awaited her arrival. I started to notice her questionable behavior, but dismissed it as her missing me and wanting to be with her friends. There were many instances when I called late at night and she was not at home where she lived with my mother in (city, country). She would come home very late from unknown places. Often, her own parents did not know where she was either. She always said that she was out with friends.
o I later found out that she was doing accounting work in a house of ill repute. We discussed the situation extensively and she finally left the job after much protest.

• On (date), X arrived, after two years of my anxiously awaiting her arrival, often going into bouts of depression, because of the love I feel for her. It took me two years of hard work to get her Residency papers, but, when she arrived, instead of showing me that she loved me, her attitude toward me was impersonal, off-standish and progressively more aggressive as I tried to get closer to her. Below are some of the incidents that demonstrate her behavioral pattern.
o As soon as she arrived (within the first week) in the US with her Resident Visa, she started mentally harassing me by saying to me (and to other people) that I should be "detached from her", and that I "had to be prepared to be separated from her", as she planted doubts that our marriage was going to work.
o She also belittled my intelligence, and insulted me as a person, accusing me of being crazy and a child. She also didn't seem to appreciate all that I had to sacrifice for her, per her biding!
o She avoided having sexual contact with me as her husband, giving all kinds of excuses about feminine problems. When I offered to take her to the doctor, she also made excuses.
o She also slept in the twin size guest bed, because she did not feel comfortable in our full size bed.
o My family invited us to spend Thanksgiving with them. X did not want to go, instead choosing to work extra hours that day, even though she had been given the day off. She was always talking about making money, because she felt that she needed to have her own money to better her life. I came home to find out that she had gone to a friend’s house to live.
o Her friends would call our home late at night (1:00am - 4:00am). When I told her not to receive calls from these people that late. Instead of being understanding about the fact that I had to be at work at 6:00am, she would get upset and angry with me, and talked long hours anyway. Her excuse was that they were drunk and always wanted to talk with her, both her friend and a man. She would be friendly to them, but was always uncaring with me.
o I confronted her about the phone calls mostly being from a man and asked her to tell me the truth. She told me that, since people were teasing her about being in love with a young man named Y from (place). She then said that she and Y should have sexual relations just to get it over with! Even then I still devoted myself to her, because I love her.

• In late (date) she said that she was going to spend the weekend with a friend. Instead, she abandoned our home within just two and a half weeks of her arrival in the US, returning for all of her things a few days later.
o She didn't tell me where she was going, and I still don't know her address or whereabouts to this date, more than 5 weeks later! She hasn't reported any change of address.
o When she came for her bag, I told her that if she left again I would get a divorce. Her response was, “If that is what you want, -but what will happen to my Resident papers?”
o She called me a few days later saying that she only wanted to be friends. She asked if we could live together as roommates, instead of as a married couple. I didn't accept just being friends, because my intention was to marry her because I wanted to live with her in Holy Matrimony.
o After I refused her attempts to live with me as a roommate, people from (country) somehow got my number (probably from her) and started making harassing telephone calls to me.
o A friend of hers, who found out that we had separated, even called to tell me about the affair she was having, and that she had taken the money I sent her to buy fraudulent paperwork for her lover to go to Italy. Her goal was to get her Residency, work for a little, and then get a visa from here to go to (country) to be with him, until she could bring him to the US. The friend who called me said that she did not tell me this before because she did not want me to think that she was jealous of my relationship or that she wanted to hurt me, but since the relationship was over, she felt I deserved to know.
o X also made over 80 calls to me, harassing me, even going as far as to threaten me with calling the police to say that I was emotionally abusing her.

• On (date) I found her in our apartment after a month of being away, and I got scared, because I had changed the locks, and didn't know what she was going to do, (maybe accuse me of abusing her, or showing affection to get a photo of us together), so I left the apartment right away, but she followed me to my car, insisting.

o As I drove away, she shouted at me and threatened to call the police on me if I left, saying that she would tell them I was abusing her.
o I drove to So-and-so's house to get her help with this situation. I had previously told her what was happening and she had advised me to avoid being in her presence without witnesses because of the threats she had made against me.
o X called me to say that she was locked out and could not get back in the apartment. I told her to get back in the way she did the first time. She said that the landlord had let her in, which was a lie. (My landlord saw that the fire escape was down to the ground from my third-floor apartment window. He called all of the tenants to see if one of the tenants had pulled it down. When we all said we hadn’t, he went into my apartment to see if someone had broken in. He saw X was in the apartment and asked where I was, since he knew we were having problems. She told him that I would be home from work soon. He thought that we had reconciled and did not think anything was awry.) He is willing to make a statement to confirm the fact that he didn’t let her in.
o So-and-so accompanied me to my apartment in her car and stayed with me for the duration of the time X was there. X , seeing that So-and-so was there, only said that she was very upset with the way I had left and stormed out. She then told So-and-so that she hated me and it was her bad luck that she had married a child and never wanted to see me again. (So-and-so will attest to this.)
o So-and-so drove her to the bus stop.
o Upon So-and-so returning to our apartment to take me to her house to get my car, the police came. Someone with a (language) accent had called the police about abuse. After questioning me, the police said I had done well, had acted with calm, and that I should try to avoid her, as I was already doing.
o So-and-so then told me to spend the night with her family, because she did not believe that X had really gotten on the bus, and was afraid of what she would do, if she came back. I packed a bag and on the way to So-and-so’s house. X called me to say that she was in front of my house and needed to get the rest of her things, confirming So-and-so’s’s suspicion that she had not really left on the bus!

• X even went so far as to call my parents to complain about me, but when she realized that they no longer believed her, she wrote my mother a nasty email. She stated that she didn't want to have anything to do with Americans, that she was the victim in this case and she was simply going to disappear from sight! (see attached email). I then came to find out that my parents had sent her money to pay all her bills in (country) at a house they are renting out, but rather than using all the money earmarked for this, we have discovered that she did not paid it off: $_ _ _ remaining.


After all of this, I realized that she seemed to have only been concerned about using me to get her US Residency, because she never acted as a wife in marriage in the short time I was actually with her. Everything became apparent as soon as she got her Social Security card and focused on working to get her own money and did not want to spend time with my family or me. I tried to ignore the signs, but her behavior continued and it came to climax when she left after only a month. I really hate to say this, because I love her, but I think this is a clear case of her marrying me fraudulently to get her Resident Card. Because when I offered to go back to (country) to make our marriage work, she refused saying that she did not want to go back there, and she was just fine here in the US. Unfortunately, I don't feel that I can trust her and that she is causing me mental torment because of what she has done to me. I have already started divorce proceedings

I attest that all of the information provided above is true and I am bringing this to the attention of the Immigration Services, because X is under my Affidavit of Support and I would like her removed. I can no longer be responsible for someone who has acted fraudulently.
_____________
(signed)
Morgan
To whom was the deportation warrant served? Has your wife already been issued a social security card? Your timeline doesn't show any dates of arrival.
[/quote]

Answer:
The warrant will probably be served to her through her employer. Yes, she was issued both SS Card and Permanent Residency ("Green Card" for 10 years without 2-yr. condition, since the marriage took place over 2 yrs. ago). She arrived recently.
Boiler
Wouldn't an IJ have to be involved?
mtracksport
Sorry to hear this happened to you . seems as though you have reason to be angry. be aware though that it is not cut and dried and is not definately over. as she was issued the 10yr card she has the same rights as you do in regards to due process. It does not matter if she was here 1 day or a thousand . the fact remains that she has the card now. uscis will definataly not take her card away until she has a chance to tell her side of it . (courts are backed up 3 yrs or more in my district ) being that fraud has been charged it is taken from a simple uscis decision to a criminal matter . the privacy act of 1971 assures that her employer can not be made aware of any circumstances regarding her immigration status until it goes to court. who ever told you this is wrong. check case law and you will find hundreds of cases just like yours. it is unfortunate you had to go through this . it might have been better to just let it go because now they will investigate both sides and sometimes things come out that were not intended. make sure you have a lot more documentation than just a letter from you (phone records/copies of e-mails/any correspondence from your parents and her about the intent of money sent and copies of unpaid bills the money was sent for. affidavits from friends she talked to ect. the burden of proof is on you . the agent in charge should have told you all this at the time you talked to him but sometimes people don't know the right things to say . hope you can get closure and move on . don't let this consume you as it has so many others.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (Boiler @ Jan 7 2008, 12:59 PM) *
Wouldn't an IJ have to be involved?


Not yet. Why? The Service is simply honouring Morgan's withdrawal of endorsement/Affidavit of Support. She'll receive notification that she has no sponsor, and then she'll be issued an NTA.
diadromous mermaid
QUOTE (mtracksport @ Jan 7 2008, 01:24 PM) *
Sorry to hear this happened to you . seems as though you have reason to be angry. be aware though that it is not cut and dried and is not definately over. as she was issued the 10yr card she has the same rights as you do in regards to due process. It does not matter if she was here 1 day or a thousand . the fact remains that she has the card now. uscis will definataly not take her card away until she has a chance to tell her side of it . (courts are backed up 3 yrs or more in my district ) being that fraud has been charged it is taken from a simple uscis decision to a criminal matter . the privacy act of 1971 assures that her employer can not be made aware of any circumstances regarding her immigration status until it goes to court. who ever told you this is wrong. check case law and you will find hundreds of cases just like yours. it is unfortunate you had to go through this . it might have been bett