This post is aimed mostly at the wonderful African American women who post so eloquently in this forum. But of course, all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

I will not be so bold to make the claim that I am worldly or wise to the ways of human nature. This is a racial issue and I hope and pray it does not become heated, the thought of that possibility has prevented me from asking this question for a few months now. Firstly, let me start off by saying I was raised Christian (Roman Catholic Christian to be precise) and regardless of what "some people" say, do or believe, I was taught by my Church and my parents (mom mostly) that God created all people equal in dignity, we are all His children. Therefore, it makes me gasp when other "Christians" can be so hateful toward their fellow brothers and sisters.

I see the blatant hatred on TV or even at times in my own neighborhood but I tend to miss the subtle signs of it and I want to ask you to honestly tell me what you think is going on here. Have I become overly sensitive because this subject now hits me right where it hurts?

My office is pretty much composed of an equal number of white employees as black employees (with very few Asians or Hispanics in the mix). Everyone gets along very well for the most part. Until....

One day there was an article in the local newspaper about Loving Day (regarding Loving vs. Virginia the case of the mixed couple that were arrested in Virginia for being in an interracial marriage.) I was remarking to the receptionist at the office, who is an older African American woman (also NOT a Christian.. she claims to be Wiccan) how lucky I feel to be alive today, 40 years AFTER the legalization of interracial marriage. I shudder to think about being thrown in jail for being married to the person I love. My heart goes out to all of those who endured such bs laws. The woman just listened to me and said nothing. A few hours later she was alone with me in the copy room and she said that she thinks it should still be illegal. It is "wrong" for blacks to marry whites or any other race to "mix". In her words, they should keep the blood lines "PURE". She would never allow her son to marry a white lady. I just looked at her like this: I was in shocked silence while my mind was screaming NAZI!!!!!!!

I suppose to her, my son is "impure". My marriage is "wrong". I couldn't believe my ears!
I confided this conversation to an older African American gentleman at the office and he was horrified too. He apologized to me for her ignorance which was totally sweet but unnecessary.. he wasn't the offender after all.

My eyes were opened however. I started to notice that the other older African American ladies in the office treated me differently than everyone else (and they ARE Christians). They say hello as if they are being forced, they ignore me when in a group setting, they are curt and cold toward me when they are not that way with anyone else in the office. In the beginning they were nice to me but they didn't know who I was married to. Their attitude changed around the time I put his picture on my desk. I haven't addressed the issue at all. I continue to put a smile on my face and treat them in the same way I treat everyone else. I happily say good morning, how are you, etc. I refuse to go out of my way to win them over but I also refuse to repay rudeness with rudeness. As for the receptionist, I treat her in a friendly professional manner but I will never be friends with her. There are too many obstacles in life, why hand someone an invitation to bring you down?

I suppose my question(s) is/are something like this: Am I paranoid? Is there a general thought among older African American women regarding interracial marriages? I do realize that not all older people can be that way, my mother is not, the man at work is not. What am I up against here? What are they really thinking?

I'm curious and a little worried about it because I do have to spend the majority of my time with these people. Otherwise, it is not influential to my life. I love my husband and our son, they are my LIFE. What others think does not change that.

Divine Mercy: This is a really HOT button topic you started here, so I hope you have thick skin.

Here is what I can briefly say on the issue because it's kind of complex. First, not all people African-American think alike, though I am sure that you already know this. So there isn't a general concensus on any issue with us. Second, I think like any issue, there are folks who are for it, against it, or some who just don't care. And it's not just a generational thing either. I know people from age 18-90 who think differently on interracial marriage. Some older folks I know are in the for it camp, some young people I know are against it and vice versa. So to know what an individual is really thinking you probably have to ask that person.

It can hurt to know that someone wouldn't accept your union because of their own beliefs and/or experiences. Heck, there are Black Americans I know that don't "approve" of my relationship with an African man, and I am Black! I just chalk it up to ignorance and the old adage that everyone is going to have an opinion on your life, warrented or not. Despite all of that, you seem to have adopted the right attitude regarding your situation.

There are all types in the world and you have the right attitude, that what they think doesn't really matter. To me, I think it's the people who are important in your life that matter. My daughter is birracial and I was very nervous about what that meant for her life. Then I saw her react to a little girl in a play group challenging the fact that she and her mother were different colors. She handled it. She didn't even look to me for reinforcement. They are rebuilding the world, we just have to maintain the self-confidence and spirit within them to keep stepping forward. I remember an aunt said she wouldn't come to my wedding because he wasn't black. I didn't address it at all, publicly. I spoke with my man about it and we came to terms with it and we moved on. If she doesn't have love for me, then she shouldn't be there. She did come to the wedding. I guess since I didn't feed the drama, the flame just went out. Now, my family is unhappy cause I've divorced this same man and I'm marrying an African man. "Why can't that girl find a good educated west indian man?" My cousins all married west indian men. My sister did too. She's divorced him cause he beat her and tried to kill her. Hmmmm.....I think I'll live my own life. I'm happy, and if they don't want to come along for the ride, get off the train! My mother was often bothered by what the "family" thinks. After what I went through with my ex-husband, she was probably just as broken as I was. She said, you'll never be happy again. Then Abass and I grew into more than just friends and she was very confused. She said, this is not how it's supposed to be. You're supposed to be alone and grieving the loss of your husband. I told her that I'd done that for over a year already and it was time to move on. A few weeks later she called me and told me that if she had my spirit she would have lived a happier life. That makes me sad. But back in the day, they didn't break the family rules. They towed the line. It's about time we made new rules.

You do have to have thick skin my dear. I am black (mixed) and it has not been a picnic for me either because I married a NIGERIAN........

Hello to all.

Yes, you are correct in questioning whether this difference has to do with the age of the people in question. People of all ages and races do have their own preferences and ideas about "everything" and nothing at all. Just like my answer today is just one person's view in tens of millions of people, women, blacks and 40+. In my own personal experience I found that my sisters and I thought my mother and her sisters were closed minded when it came to race. As my mother thought her mother was too because my grandmother was of mixed race and she married the blackest man (my grandfather) that she could find.

I could say that most black women in their seventies don't trust whites, but that would be inaccurate. To say that many black women in their seventies lived through Jim Crow laws and still remember those effects would be more accurate. But leaving sweeping generalities behind, one would have to consider too many variables (income, education, geographic location, etc) to come up with a definitive answer. So in the meantime consider yourself more enlightened and brush that experience to one side. If they don't pay rent in your brain, don't give them space to infiltrate it. Keep on rolling girl.
Chispas

I suppose my question(s) is/are something like this: Am I paranoid? Is there a general thought among older African American women regarding interracial marriages? I do realize that not all older people can be that way, my mother is not, the man at work is not. What am I up against here? What are they really thinking?

Salutations, I pray that you are blessed with wisdom and grace for your race.
To answer your questions: No, you are not being paranoid, you have just been enlightened to another level of social-racial consciousness or unconsciousness. She has informed you of the school of thought to which she subscribes.
Next answer, yes there is a general thought among african american women regarding interracial marriages, and no, age has nothing to do with it.
Typically, if an african american woman sees a white woman or any woman who is not black with one of our very own (regardless of where he's from), the thoughts are "why did he have to be with her, or who does she think she is and last but not least, what, a black woman aint good enough for him, he must have forgotten where he came from!"
Personally, I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away (that theory applies both ways not just to blacks but all races)!
I also realized that to each his or her own, who am I to judge...so I guess I must have experienced some sort of growth.
And as far as your male coworker, typically most african american men dont care what color the woman is, as long as she is a woman.
Its african american women that tend to stay close to our own, and those reasons are deep rooted in our culture, society, and history. You would have to be black to understand exactly where I am coming from. I hope I have shed some light on your situation.
P.S. From a societal perspective; the more successful a black man, the more money he makes, the lighter his woman should be. (Its a climb up the status ladder).
If you have any more questions, please feel free to pm.

I am not a woman and am not black, but I do have a great deal of experience dealing with workplace dynamics. We all spend a great deal of time at work and it is easy and comfortable to fall into workplace freindships. We spend a lot of time with these folks and it certaily makes the work day easier if you enjoy the company of your coworkers.

However...
It is always better to maintain very shallow relationships with the people at work. An workplace puts people together in relationships that would never exist otherwise. We choose our friends very carefully, but don't usually have a choice with our coworkers. People generally cooperate and act friendly at work because it is necessary. But make no mistake, most of these people are not your friends even if they do give you a Christmas card.

We all love to talk about our spouse and kids. Avoid the temptation to do this at work. I know it is hard, but you will have much less drama if you keep your personal business at home. I don't mean you shouldn't have pictures of your husband or kids on your desk. But try to resist any conversations that are not superficial. It sounds like you do work with a racist. This should not surprise you since there are plenty of them out there.

Just go to work, do your job and don't look there for confirmation of your lifestye, religion, politics or anything else. And don't think you can ever understand the logic of a racist because if they were capable analyzing their thinking they wouldn't be racist in the first place. And yes, a person who objects to interracial marriage is a racist even if they are otherwise accepting of other races.

I'll make one final point becasue you mentioned religion several times. Churches are still the most segregated institutions in America. I don't say that to be critical; its just a fact. I think it would be nieve to think the there are fewer christian racists than non-christian racists.

It really pains me that you have to go through this. People talk about me when they found out that I was engage to an africian. They said that I was marrying out of my race. But, Im black and he's black. Sometimes I have to overlook them like Jesus said that they are thrown about like a sheep without a shepard. Remember what God said for us to marry and become fruitful. He didnt say marry in our race he said marry. So as long as you know that, and you did what God want you to do who cares what other people think. So, just keep you head up and continue what your doing, always remember it wont be long before your husband to with you.

Let it roll off you like water off a duck. Don't try to analyze it because it makes no sense. To know the reasons would mean to ask the specific person.

Unononehigher, I have read a very good article referring to the deep rooted, historical and social reasons. I did not save it so I can not post a link.
But I know what you mean.

I just would like to say that if you have the fear of God, that's the only man you should worry about disappointing. People are going to talk, nonetheless they chastised Jesus but he was healed by his faith. Just hold on and know that "what God has joined together, no man can put asunder"

Ben and Shan

Very good advice Frank (and Jocelyn). I discuss my marriage as little as possible with co-workers, and believe me when they can't stand it any longer they ask. I work for a major telecommunication company and it can get crazy sometimes just in general.

One should not however be a surprise that there are black racist as well as white racist and there are some racist from other countries as well that bloom after settling here in the US after becoming affluent.

When I admitted to one white co-worker that I was going to Nigeria to get married she
said "why in the world would you marry a stinky, smelly, Nigerian?" "They don't believe in deodorant and he'll just mistreat you and leave you after he gets his citizenship".

I couldn't say a word, I was speechless!


As far as older blacks being racist it depends on what personally happened to them or their relatives during the 40's, 50's and 60's in America that they have not been able to come to grips with. Sometimes in the name of religion. My own father who is a Black Foot Indian 84 years old will not allow his own son who is married to a white woman bring her to his house.

My brother is still happily married after 30 years and we love her very much!

U have opened up a can of worms now! First let me say that we are all entitled to our opinions. Thats what these forums are for. And no one should be afraid to voice theirs. Matter of fact they should always stand up for what they believe in. And i understand that opinions are formed in several ways: they are taught, formed out of a negative/positive experience, realized over time and maturity, formed from religious interpretations, products of peer pressure, and many more. So to question why someone feels a certain way about something can be a complex task. We are all very different human beings, going thru this life in different places, different races, different faces! But the core of our being should be our God.

I only kno of a few religions that discourage or outright ban mixed race marriage. And to those who practice that religion, that is ur belief and i respect it. But my christian faith tells me that all are created equal. Although different and unique and individual...we are all children of God. It is my opinion that anyone who calls themself a christian, goes to church, reads the bible, and who then can turn around and say its wrong to love a person of a different race, is a hypocrite.

To address the statement i quoted above...i must respect ur opinion, although i don't understand it. A persons choice in a mate is a personal one. It is based on preference, attraction, compatability, interests, similar thoughts, opinions, goals, views on life, spiritual connection etc. Your comment made it seem as tho u think its just on a color basis. And even more disturbing, u feel that there is fundamentally something better or worse about a woman because of her color. U cant be so naive as to think that white women choose to love a black man just so there is one less for u! Or that we think we are better or more deserving. And why cant a black man make that choice without being judged as someone "not knoing where he came from", or "selling out". Do u hear how riduculous all this sounds. Its not about u! Its not about color! Its not about race! Its about love, choice, and humankind. Why should anyone care what someone else is doing, as long as they are happy, living a righteous life in God's eyes, and being a good human being.

And it really bothered me, the comment made that "I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away"..WOW..this implies you think that black men who date outside their race are somehow no good, or not worthy, or don't deserve the same amt of respect as other black men. Stop thinking their choices are a personal attack on black women! Can't everyone just be judged on their character and integrity, and not on who they choose to spend their life with.

racism (n.) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

In closing i would like to say that i will never pretend that i kno what its like to be black, nor african...i will never kno the true battles that were fought...I was not there in the days of slavery, or during the civil rights era...but please do not think i don't still feel the pain. I am ashamed of my people, and others who have done such atrocites to our own humankind. But please don't blame me for the hatred of others. I wish to be judged as an individual. Not as a reflection of the past.

I really could go on and on about this, as I have written alot about this subject, both as opinion and personal experience. I have been dating black men exclusively my entire life,(i'm 42) and have 3 beautiful biracial children. I have been in the black culture and lifestyle for a long time, and have experienced my share of prejudice! Racism goes both ways. Always has...always will.

God help us see beyond color and race...and begin to love each other unconditionally! AMEN.

You know, I thought I was the only one who thinks "I'm a duck" when things get tough. When they really get tough, and I need to laugh about it, my mom and I will get together, stick our butts out, fold our arms like wings and walk around "quacking" for a few moments. (Maybe you'll think I'm crazy, but laughing is for me the only way to get past things that REALLY hurt).

Now, because you chose to marry an African, there will ALWAYS be people who won't approve. But what my fiance and I have decided is that as long as we feel like we are doing what is right in the sight of GOD, it doesn't matter what other people think or say. IMO, there are three types of people you will encounter:
1. Those who will love you AND your husband and who will support you;
2. Those who will smile and be nice to you, but then talk about you behind your back;
3. And those who will say the nasty things right to your face.

I've experienced this already, and I'm not even married to my african man yet. I have an uncle who is trying his best to be loving and supportive. But, bless his heart, I know it is very difficult for him to accept an interracial marriage. Everybody in the family has agreed NOT to tell my grandmother. She would have a heart-attack and a stroke at the same time if she knew I was marrying a black man. My grandmother (and many in her generation) is quite racist. She doesn't like ANYBODY who isn't WHITE.

But my man is the BEST thing that has ever happened to me. Things may be tough, people WILL say hurtful things, but the love and happiness we have is worth everything we may face. Just focus on how much you love your husband and don't let those negative nasty comments affect your relationship. The receptionist DOESN'T know your husband and she doesn't know your relationship and so what she says about it really should just go out with the trash. Because that's all it is - trash talk. And it doesn't do anybody one bit of good. Okay, I think I'm starting to ramble.

My point is, that you have to be a duck, or grow thick skin, or throw those comments out with the trash, or whatever you need to do to handle the things that people may say and NOT let it have an effect on your relationship and happiness. I agree with another post that said to keep conversations superficial at work. Especially when you know there are those who you'll have trouble with.

I'm sorry to say that there are people out there who just can't keep their nastiness to themselves. Someone needs ot give that receptionist a copy of Bambi and tell her to pay attention to the phrase "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all."

I completely agree. I have always believed that we are all God's children. Variety is the spice of life. How boring would it be if we all had exactly the same skin color, height, build, hair color, eye color. . . You getting me? We are different, but equal.

It's true that racism goes both ways. When I was in Africa with my man, there were many Africans who glared at us disapprovingly. When he gets here, there will be people here who will do the same.

And I totally agree - GOD HELP US SEE BEYOND COLOR AND RACE AND BEGIN TO LOVE EACH OTHER UNCONDITIONALLY.

I hope that those of us who DO see beyond all that and see EVERYBODY as a child of God will inspire others to do the same.

Well said!

QUOTE(unononehigher @ Dec 23 2007, 02:58 PM) *
Typically, if an african american woman sees a white woman or any woman who is not black with one of our very own (regardless of where he's from), the thoughts are "why did he have to be with her, or who does she think she is and last but not least, what, a black woman aint good enough for him, he must have forgotten where he came from!"
Personally, I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away


Yeah, I caught that one too, that kind of leaves me wondering...what that 'given away' thing is all about.


So far I think most up here have given you excellent advice. Always be wary of your fellow coworkers and remember they are not your friends. I also second the sentiments of those that have brought up the historical issues that some African American's may have regarding interracial and sadly enough 'intercultural' marriages.

Diasporic Africans have so many issues regarding race and culture within our own 'race/culture' that even our own families have a hard time when (we) African Americans, Africans directly from Africa, or Africans from any other country or culture in the world leave their own cultures and marry Africans of other cultures? (Kind of confusing huh?)

Not only that, there seems to be this myth of 'there is a shortage of good black men' going around in America, so some get jealous when they see black/African men with 'other' women.

It's quite a complex issue. However, all you need to worry about, is making sure that everything in between doesn't affect your relationship.

It's going to be tough sometimes, but what marriage isn't? Just wait until you have to deal with being the 'white woman' raising black children issues come up! Ok ok...my bad, one thing at a time.

Take all of the 'hateration' with a grain of salt, and rejoice in the fact that you are happy, and you have a man that loves you, and married you, and is with none other, but YOU!


All will be fine!

Salutations,
If your can of worms got open, it was not my doing. They were there before I existed, you are using my statement out of context.
You state that "...although i don't understand it." What is not to understand about my statement, I gave a generalized view, not explicitly categorially of all black women. The original poster asked "what are they really thinking?" and I gave her a short, brief synopsis of possibilities.

You state "Your comment made it seem as tho u think its just on a color basis."
Correction, that is YOUR interpretation of what I said, I can not control your lack of context understanding so don't blame me for your deep seated rooted issues.
"And even more disturbing, u feel that there is fundamentally something better or worse about a woman because of her color."
And again, that is your interpretation, your problem and so far you are still wrong about my intents.
"U cant be so naive as to think that white women choose to love a black man just so there is one less for u!"First of all, before you start assuming you know what deficits I may have, REWIND, and CORRECT YO'SELF. Up unitl I got married, I had an active membership card to the "Minority Womens Rainbow Coalition for Dating INC,"
so THERE HAS NEVER BEEN NEVER A SHORTAGE OF MEN FOR UNO!
" Or that we think we are better or more deserving." Sounds like you have a repressive superiority complex going on, I am not a therapist, nor do I practice one while masterbating. Moving on....
"And why cant a black man make that choice without being judged as someone "not knoing where he came from", or "selling out".
And again, YOU ARE OUT OF CONTEXT AND OUT OF ORDER!
Do u hear how riduculous all this sounds.
DO YOU HEAR HOW RIDICULOUS YOU SOUND...
Its not about u! I never once said it was about me, you turned this on me instead of where it was originally intended.
Its not about color! Well now, yes it is. she stated "This post is aimed mostly at the wonderful African American women who post so eloquently in this forum." And that leaves you where...and she went on to further state " But of course, all feedback is welcomed and appreciated."
"Its not about race!" Already dressed issue (see above^)
Its about love, choice, and humankind. Why should anyone care what someone else is doing, as long as they are happy, living a righteous life in God's eyes, and being a good human being. And if you honestly feel that way, then why am I your sounding board for December 22, 2007??

"And it really bothered me, the comment made that "I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away"..WOW..this implies you think that black men who date outside their race are somehow no good, or not worthy, or don't deserve the same amt of respect as other black men."
First of all, I don't give a damn about what bothers you. Get it straight. Moving on to your sad interpretations...yet again. No, all this implies is that you are not capable of reading things within context, your interpretation of statements are filled delusional inuendos and full of deep seated issues. Sorry, I am not a therapist. And for the record, I am the PROUD MOTHER OF THREE AFRICAN KINGS, so for your summary of my intent to be true according to sanity, I must hate myself and my children and that is not NO WHERE NEAR BEING TRUE!!
"Stop thinking their choices are a personal attack on black women! Can't everyone just be judged on their character and integrity, and not on who they choose to spend their life with. racism (n.) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."
You are in no authority to JUDGE my thinking, thank you very much. And I absolutely love your way of deflecting your issues upon me, but I am here to inform you that I do not grow from personal attacks.

In closing i would like to say that i will never pretend that i kno what its like to be black, nor african...i will never kno the true battles that were fought...I was not there in the days of slavery, or during the civil rights era...but please do not think i don't still feel the pain. I am ashamed of my people, and others who have done such atrocites to our own humankind. But please don't blame me for the hatred of others. I wish to be judged as an individual. Not as a reflection of the past.
Oh, really, You just did, by attempting to discredit and invalidate what I just said.
Now in closing. Every one have a Blessed Christamas and Prosperous New Year

Typically, if an african american woman sees a white woman or any woman who is not black with one of our very own (regardless of where he's from), the thoughts are "why did he have to be with her, or who does she think she is and last but not least, what, a black woman aint good enough for him, he must have forgotten where he came from!"
Personally, I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away (that theory applies both ways not just to blacks but all races)! I also realized that to each his or her own, who am I to judge...so I guess I must have experienced some sort of growth.
If you are going to quote me, quote me right.

I think Generally its an age bracket thing... I haven't met any younger people <30yrs who have said anything negative about it. We have just been raised differently, integration was never an issue. 30-50 i think they are divided, and GENERALLY over 50yrs old, they have a hard time accepting it... it is just the way they were raised, with segregation and the whole taboo of it. Unless some of these <30 year olds were raised being taught heavy critism against other races by their parents, they should not have been given any other seeds of racism growing up.

In my own case, my father was very much against me marrying a black guy, let alone from Africa, at first. He is a christian, but was surprised when I didn't find it odd or out of place, even though i grew up in the same home as him. He isn't a hateful man, and he even has several friends of many different races, but somehow the thought of marrying a different race was "wrong" to him. We ended up having to go see our pastor, and my pastor explained it as roots of racism that he didn't even realize were there, but were probably planted long ago by the way he was raised. He was also in school around the time of integration, and even had a mexican girlfriend once, but was so mercilessly hounded by his family for it that he eventually let her go.

I am happy to say that now, my father is one of our biggest supporters and he loves Magnus as much as I do , but it took God changing his heart as it will anyone who has been raised all their lives to believe things a certain way and is being asked to change the way they think.

Magnus' family had no problems with me, just a couple of OLDER grandparents gave him a hard time. But I am very lucky that his family is so wonderful

Wow that was quite a blast on that posters comments, and you could not be more WRONG in calling what she said ridiculous. First of all if you have not walked a mile in the shoes of a black woman you cannot FATHOM what it is like trying to carve something positive for yourself in this country. And how can you understand that when you are not a black woman. Believe me my sister, our struggle is far from over. Again there is always exceptions to the rule, but African American women are not only devalued by society, but also by our very own black men. A lot of it has been caused by society, and a lot caused by our own community. Look at the television, magazines, movies, what do you see, not US! when you are constantly baraged with that day after day what is that saying to us? What do you see the celebrities with at the premiere's and in the magazines. How are proud African American woman supposed to feel? We feel like we don't matter and we have to fight twice as hard to get less than you. I'm not going to go any further with that 'cause it can get heated and it is off the path of what the OP asked, but I urge you to talk to a sister and have her explain that to you so you can see that that is not ridiculous coming from a woman who lives it. You know I would really be happy to talk to you about it. PM me. Not to argue, but to really help you get a glimpse into a black woman's eyes and understand. I bet your children are beautiful, but when they are older I pray that you have and will prepare them well for what society will dish out on them. It's sad but it is very true. Racism is alive and well and doesn't look like we are going to extinguish it any time soon in this country, especially when there is so much disparity between the races.

Divine Mercy- It is probably not possible to answer your question to a degree that you will be without controversy in your marriage. If you understand that segregation was in full swing less than 50 years ago, but a lot of older people in general still carry that. Although some may truly be racists some are actually just old school and that was the way it was. You didn't mix races. My great uncle's grandfather was a slave and my uncle grew up in that era after slavery but he was in the era of lynchings, and to the day he died in the early 90's he never would look a white man in his eyes. Because that is what they were taught. Not making excuses for them (the AA ladies), but I hope that gives you a different perspective into it. What is wrong is to treat you like a leper because of it. But you are on the road to changing hearts because that is what it will take. Don't stop being a Christian becasue someone else needs a heart check, and I for one believe killing a person with kindness works. But love your man, love your family and love your enemies. Asking questions about things we don't know and don't understand is the way to overcome racism. I had a coworker who used to be terrified of me because I was black, and frankly I hated her for that, but I had to remember I was a Christian and I needed to love her. So I started to ask her questions about things white people did that I didn't know about and she started doing the same thing to. we realized outside of our cultural differences we were the same. She is one of my very best friends in the whole wide world today. I love my Shell Bell. Her family on the other hand did not take kindly to our friendship, but because we held steadfast to it, they finally accepted me. Even her dad and he was old school racists. So persevere. Love knows no color and we just need to keep praying that one day America will know no colors.

You are my new hero!!!!!!

God Bless those who have great wisdom, understanding, comprehension and discernment. I am honored.
P.S. You were mine first.

Wow I didn't expect quite this much feedback lol. I'm sorry if this subject brought up some sore issues, that was not the intention.

The reason I addressed it to the African American women in the forum (mostly) is because what would I know about the kinds of things that are said between one AA woman to another? I wanted to hear it from the people who know what it really means to live and love as an African American. I asked because I want to better understand.

The receptionist is just an all around nasty woman. The other day she was wearing a beautiful red silk blouse and I commented that she looked very "Christmasy". I might as well have told her she looked like Satan for the way she reacted. It was then I realized she was Wiccan. Oooooops. It was the day of the office Christmas party, I assumed her outfit was meant to be festive. Bottom line, her opinion amounts to a pile of ant turds in my world.

It does bother me about the other women in the office though. It's as if my own mother is looking down on me. I guess it was that whole "respect your elders" thing that has been drilled into my brain since I took my first breath.

Although, pointing out their age was not meant to target all older people, they do happen to be the only people that have given me a problem outside the white community. I do get the impression, however that the younger generations are more accepting and open. I do see how history is not just in books for those who have lived it.

I am not a black woman. I never will be obviously. I can't know what it means to be. I can't share your suffering and pain. And until I met my husband, it was a non issue. I didn't think much either way about the issue. People are people. I went to school with all races and had friends of all races. Since I met him and fell in love with him I see things differently. Loving someone so intimately, as I do with him, changes everything. I see that there are very few if any black dolls on the shelves at Toys R Us for example. And my ears are tuned in to the white people around me now. Before I would just overlook comments as ignorant, now it hurts.

Strangers, assuming I'm on board with their klan lovin, lily white opinions based on my blonde hair or blue eyes, make the most offensive comments to me... after looking around to make sure no black people are within earshot of course. I used to just look at them like they were crazy. Now I want to either cry or beat the crap out of them.

I recently was walking down the street with my son when a group of very young African American boys rode their bikes down the street. They were passing an Irish festival that had just started to disburse and some drunken loser began screaming at them to get the f out of his neighborhood etc etc etc. NO WONDER there is so much tension! What are those boys going to grow up thinking? That ONE DISGUSTING DRUNKEN PIG just became the example of what a white man is to at least a dozen African American kids. I hope and pray they each meet a thousand better men to erase that impression.

I know this is a bit long already but please bear with me. When I was a kid I went to an all white school in an all white neighborhood (I went to a very diverse high school though) and I was treated very badly by the other kids. I know this is not uncommon but the teasing and bullying that I endured is NOT the focus of the story. In my mind, boys were rotten. I hated them all. I was nothing. I was just some ugly smelly (accd. to the boys) girl that deserved to be treated like crap. The girls weren't much better. I had a very low opinion of myself at that time.

One day, while shopping with my mother, I might have been about ten yrs. old, a teenage African American boy asked my mom if he could help her with her bags. Mom said yes and we all started to load the trunk. When we were finished mom handed him some money as a thank you and I started to get in the car. The young guy said to me, no no let me get that for you, he opened the door for me and when I was fully in he said have a good day ma'am and shut the door gently. I blushed for weeks! "Ma'am!!!" I was someone! He didn't think i was stupid or smelly or ugly! He was the first black person I ever met. And my ten year old brain interpreted that as, black boys are nice.. white boys are mean. I know NOW that is not the case. There are good and bad people everywhere.

I told this story to my sons to drive the point home that you never know who you represent. You might be among any kind of people and they will say wow those boys are Kathryn's sons, what good boys they are.. those boys belong to that school... what good kids they are. They are not representing themselves alone and they need to keep that in mind. That guy at the supermarket that day probably never thought about me again as soon as my mom's car left the parking lot but I never forgot him. He left an impression on me that lasted all these years. Ok that was off the topic at hand a wee bit.

Also, as for the struggles you have all been through throughout history and still to this day, I wasn't there, I'm not there, I don't know it or feel it as deeply as you do. I feel compassion and even anger over it though. In a Christian sense I do because we're all brothers and sisters. I will admit that I understand getting angry learning about the past. As an Irish Catholic, reading about the horrors inflicted upon my ancestors in Ireland for hundreds of years makes me FURIOUS. So I can't say that if I had been born to African American parents I would be able to swallow the history pill lightly.

The workplace: It is best to keep our lives to ourselves, I agree wholeheartedly. At times good friendships can arise among co workers but as a rule of thumb, you are there to work not to socialize. Thank you for pointing that out.

Besangin, there is already a bit of controversy in the marriage regarding this issue. There have been plenty of people in Nigeria that have told him what "white women are like". Some of it is so ridiculous. I can understand that they would believe certain things because our American movies and such do not represent us very well. Some of it is not so ridiculous. A good amount of the things said were true of many white women I know. There are things about me that I didn't realize were so "white" until confronted with this issue. I'm talking Weird Al's white and nerdy hitting a little too close to home lol. When we associate very little with people outside our own little comfort zones we tend to not see another way to be. I know he sometimes looks at me in a funny way wondering what i'm smoking with the things I say and he chalks it up to a "white girl" issue. When I was pregnant he freaked out if I did the smallest amount of manual labor. I pointed out that Nigerian women work up until they give birth! He said they're stronger than white women. That was so offensive but at the same time.. they are some strong women, I'm constantly impressed by them.

I guess I'll never really know what is on the minds of the ladies at the office and knowing might make life a lot harder. I know what is on the minds of the ignorant turds in my own little white world and that's enough to handle. We've all had our share of rude comments regarding marrying a foreigner. The stinky.. no deodorant comment was not one I had heard before though I was just hoping to better understand these women. If I understood them better, I might be able to see where they are coming from and not be angry about it.

Thank you all for your wonderful comments. I appreciated being able to put the kids to bed and read it all.
The very last thing (I promise) I wanted to address is the comment about a lot of Christians being very racist. Yes it is something that I stressed because when I meet a Christian I expect them to be "Christ-like". Not that we're all not sinners, we are! Maybe I am naive hoping that someone is what they represent themselves to be. I'm not stupid enough to think that there is NO ONE out there who just doesn't "get it". There are plenty. Hypocrisy is a totally different issue all together.

Wonderful! I applaude u guys. (unononehigher, Besingin) My post did exactly what i intended it to do! Illustrate differences of opinions, and how crazy things can sound when they are coming from others who have an opposing viewpoint. and how defensive one can get when they don't agree. I thought i layed the groundwork when i said our opinions are our own...and they come from "personal" experiences that no one else has lived but that person.

I also said "I respect ur opinion"...the difference is, u do not respect anyone elses. But thats ok...I admit when i was quoting u, i really wasn't meaning u (unononehigher) personally, but was referring to the "typically african american women" who u speak of in ur post. (since of course u have grown and no longer agree with them..right) U generalized the issue first...i just responded.

I also agree my response is my interpretation of ur words, just as urs is to mine. But I don't feel the need to blast u. If i misinterpretted them, then my bad....all u had to do was explain what u meant. I didnt mean to start a blastfest here...but just as u have been dealing with racist mentality, so have alot of us. You have no idea about my life or my struggles, just as i don't kno urs. It's not a black/white thing. Its just that we have to label everything in our society. And color is the most obvious distinction. You don't have to be a black woman to kno prejudice.. We as women should be standing together in unity, and pride for womanhood..not bickering about sterotypes or trying to analyze the errors of our ways! We really are not so different. We just express ourselves differently.

If all u (and Besangin) got out of my post was negative vibes..then I'm sorry. My intention was to give another viewpoint. The both of u should try not to be so angry. There's room for discussion and debate without getting ugly. We do not have to agree with each other to respect each other.

By the way, although i am no expert...I have a degree in social and behaviorial science, and have studied black history, international relations, african studies, and marriage/family etc. I am currently a social worker. By no means does this qualify me to speak about "the black experience" but with my education and personal experience i feel comfortable sharing my viewpoint. In addition, i am a devote christian who puts God first in my life.

and to respond about my children..they are grown! 21, 20 and 12. I also have many black women in my life, both professionals and personal friends and family who have shed light on these topics and more...and who for the most part DON"T have a problem with interracial marriages. So it truly is one's own opinion..not a black or white one.

I want to say to Divine...i'm sorry to have guided this bus in the wrong direction! LOL But really what i was trying to point out is that everyone has a reason for their opinions...and it should never be seen as a generalization because a certain person, of a certain race, color or age has one that differs from urs. If u want to kno why they have that opinion...ask the person. I think we all kno..not just by evidence of this subject and postings..but from our own experiences that some people are prejudice...i am sure if asked why, each would give u a different reason! There's alot to be said for a person who can accept one's opinion without placing judgement on that person. Thats where thick skins come in handy! All we can do is worry about ourselves and leave the rest up to God.

Anyway...i think we are beating a dead horse here...We need to agree to disagree. Although the anger seemed unnecessary, i still respect everyones opinions. As i stated before:

We are all a product of our environment, or culture/heritage, and our individualism
"DIFFERENT PLACES, DIFFERENT RACES, DIFFERENT FACES! "

God Bless
.

I have several problems even now with what you are trying to say. You feel that the anger was unnecessary. Again it goes back to if you are not a black woman how can you not get angry over your words? I would have felt totally different if it were worded in a tone of just an opinion, but you were high on your horse in a matter of fact way. The only thing that you proved with that post is that you don't have a clue, and not trying to get one. You also did not end in I really want to understand that can someone explain to me? As far as your eduicational background when it comes to "black history", it may get you all warm and cozy that you learned something about our culture it does SHIOT for us because they don't give a true account of black history in the schools, and frankly my dear you can have a PHd in African American studies you will NEVER be able know the real experience of being a black woman in a white man's world. So you have NO credibility to speak on the thoughts of a black woman!!!You can transplant your self in the culture and in the community, and if and when you get tired of the comments and the blatant racism you can walk away I however cannot shed my skin nor should I be made to feel like I need to in order to be considered a Madam like you and not GAL! You and I walk in a store, because of your blonde hair and skin you will already get better service than me. I will automatically be deemed the shoplifter on welfare using Ebonics.

What is futher frustrating is that the tone of your response comes across as an attempt to show that you can stand your ground. You can stand your ground and not be any closer to rectifying the problem and that is understanding why your words were so offensive, and how you were NOT the authority to make them. Even though I am greatly offended by your comments before and now I am still willing to talk to you to give you a black woman's point of view. I hope that you could discern that my comment about your children was NOT an insult. That I had a real concern for all who have the added pressures that come with being biracial. Now you can fire back at me if you want, I'm done on this because sometimes for some they just don't get it. Thus the misconceptions continue!

Divine Mercy- The only issue I can take with what you said is that you hear the comments about black people from other white people and you say that you want to do whatever. When you do nothing, in their eyes you agree with them. So check their A$$ES! After all they are talking about your husband and child, and if more did that eventually they can only make their comments in the secracy of their homes because they will know that other people got tired of hearing that BULLSHIOT or don't subscribe to bigotry!!!!!!

First of all, No applause is needed. Nothing that I do or say is meant for mans approval or accolades.
The only thing your post did was illustrate how crazy "You appear to be" not others, except for those that subscribe to your mind set.
And yes, you laid "the groundwork", but you poured the wrong foundation, even now your "foundation" is...shakey. Oh, and I respect your opinion, its just that you have no moral high ground to stand upon in my world or the world of ANY BLACK WOMAN. I dont care how many black men you date or how many biracial babies you give birth to or howm many times you say "my bad". That even applies to your daughter, if you have one and she appears more ethnic than european. You will never understand what she will pass through, you can hold her hand, and console her, but never UNDERSTAND the plight and misjustices perpetrated upon a black woman. So don't fool yourself and think that you can.
All of the degrees, international studies, and marriage/family etc. in the WORLD will not quantify or qualify you as an expert on any field in regards to minority communication, socialization or ostracization. So don't let your so-called worldly and academia experiences give you a false sense of security in sharing your view point in a "black womans" world or mind.
Now, don't go misinterpreting that as my saying don't share, by all means do, that puts more meat on the platter, just don't get it twisted in thinking that you can attempt to discredit or invalidate that which you have no intricate knowledge. Which is what you did.
As for the black women you have in your life both professionally and personally, do you go around telling them their experiences are fraudulent or ridiculous because "with my education and personal experience i feel comfortable sharing my viewpoint. In addition, i am a devote christian who puts God first in my life."
Now, where is the respect in statements such as:
"U have opened up a can of worms now!" = instigation
"And i understand that opinions are formed in several ways" = first correct statement you made
"i must respect ur opinion, although i don't understand it." = ignorance
"U cant be so naive as to think that white women choose to love a black man just so there is one less for u!" = demeaning, superiority complex coupled with arrogance
"Do u hear how riduculous all this sounds" = belittling and invalidation
"Its not about u!" = deflection, hostility, persecution
"But please don't blame me for the hatred of others. I wish to be judged as an individual. Not as a reflection of the past." = self vindication
"And it really bothered me, the comment made that" = WHO GIVES A DAMN!!! SO FALL OF YOUR SOAP BOX.
"I used to agree with some of those statements until I realized that there are some men in our race that need to be given away"..=Severe misqoute followed by more ignorant rantings causing others to follow your lead.
The bible teaches "beware of fales teachers, they come to kill and destroy!"
And yes, I did use the word "typical" not specifically, or majority, or all, neither did I say every black woman.
So no, You insighted the specifications of all black women, not I.
And just as your interpretation was off and still is off, so is your 1/2 a$$ apology.
And never once did I say I know your life experiences, you put you into this scenario.(and then attempted to drag me along with you, hold up, "move _ _ _ CH, get out the way!"
The O.P. asked questions about what were the black women thinking and as I stated earlier, I gave her some possible synopsis'.
You kicked it into third gear because you honestly don't know, and most of time anything we don't know, scares us or the truth hurts, take your pick.
And the "christian" thing to do would be to learn to be a christian at heart, and not a christian at mouth.
P.S. You give yourself too much credit girl, take note,
You don't have enough power in this life time to make UNO angry. But what you do have is a need to be truly enlightened and humbled. Some of out here can help you with one of the needed aforementioned attributes. The rest is up to you.
Peace to all,
no hurt, no harm, and no foul

To DivineMercy- If anything that I said offended you, charge it to my head and not my heart. I thought I went through your post step by step and answered each of your questions whole heartedly, truthfully, and from a clearmind set.

MERRY, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

Besangin and Uno - Now I have to get me another bottle of wine. Anyone for some Moscato D'Asti?

Nothing like a tall glass of sparkling wine and Besangin post, now we must add Uno.

You Go Girls!!!!

Thank you

Ladies, Ladies! I get it! And i think the entire forum who's read all these posts gets it too! We are not black, we never will be black, therefore we will never walk in your shoes. Hasnt that been stated over and over again! Its obvious this subject is an important one, but why does it keep going and going. I mean really now. Havent we all made our points, explained our opinions, and defended our words. For Gods sake lets move on! Just as u will not back down from ur views, neither will i back down from mine...So whats the point of u continuing to chew up and spit out everything i say. I am not, and will never be afraid to speak my mind no matter how many angry women yell and lash out at me.

None of my words has intended to be a personal attack on either of u. If u felt attacked I'm sorry. I have apologized for any misinterpretations. I have no need to talk further about this with either of u because the anger u exhibit is not conducive to a conversation that will get any further than it already has. And honestly i really don't feel there's much else to say here. We have different views. period.

And to all the people who have sent me private messages...i appreciate your comments. I don't blame any of u for not wanting to post them publicly. Its a shame this has turned into a thread where people don't feel comfortable sharing their viewpoints without fearing they will get their head bit off. I really never intended it to be like this.

I won't comment on this thread anymore unless someone has something new to talk about, or the anger subsides, and we can talk like mature adults respecting each others differences instead of focusing negatively on them.

Hope everyone has a blessed holiday.

Very true! We ALL know what it is to be treated as a lesser person because we're not male in some way shape or form. We all experience life as a woman.. along with the good, bad and ugly sides.




You didn't really steer it in the wrong direction, it wasn't the direction I would have gone in but like you said we all have reasons for our opinions. I was hoping to get different perspectives and that's exactly what I got.

I didn't post what my reaction is, just what I feel like doing. I can't really expect to be treated with respect if I treat others disrespectfully no matter how ignorant I think they are. My initial reaction is to start swinging. After counting to ten I usually say something along the lines of, "you don't REALLY feel that way do you?". 99% of the time the answer is no, which I follow up with, "why say something like that then?" They mumble, feeling like an idiot while walking away. At least it gets them to think about what nonsense they are spouting and what they really feel about it in their heart. If their answer is "Yes, I do really feel that way" my response goes something like, "you can't really be that stupid can you?" or "wow, what kind of mother raised a f*cktard like you?" Depends on my mood and the person saying it. Because although I would be defending my husband and son by confronting them, I will also be defending my family by letting it go and praying for them. The people I'm talking about will burn my house down, I kid you not.

You did exactly what I hoped someone would do. I know what white people say because I live in a white world. Although there are millions of different experiences, there are only a number of popular prevalent opinions. What I mean is, the majority of white racists will say very similar things. I don't know what goes on when no white people are around, I was hoping to get the inside scoop on the more common opinions regarding this issue and you gave me just that, so thank you very much. Although it hurts to hear, that's what is said by some and that's what I wanted to know. I do realize the suggestions you gave may or may not be the opinions of the ladies at work, but they are opinions of some people that I may have to face in life. So thank you for giving me a better understanding of this.

Yes you did, I do appreciate that. Although I would like to ask you and Besangin AND ose_n_me to try to stand back from the feelings of it all and try to look at things objectively in an effort to educate all of us in here.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not accusing anyone of being insensative or wrong in any way. It is a passionate subject and emotions can run high. Give details. Explain why you feel the way you do. If you feel open enough to do so, give examples from your own life.

This is something that hits all of us close to home for different reasons. It can legitimately be argued that it hits some more close to home than others. Obviously, it has been stated and overstated that we're not African American so we can't possibly know what it means to be. My plea to you three is to try to gain a better understanding of what you have each endured in life causing you to feel the way you do.

As I have pointed out ad nausea, I have heard more than a heart should bear from white people regarding the racism that exists among "us" (us as white, not us as racists). Just as I asked what might be going on in the minds of the ladies at work because I don't have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story. What are people thinking? Why are they thinking it? What have the witnessed and how could it have been something that was misinterpreted? How can we, as human beings, come to a better understanding of one another without actually BEING one another. We were all given the lives we were given and can't do anything about it. Repeatedly telling someone they can't understand because they aren't something is not really productive, no matter how true it is.

Knowing the fact that none of us can change what outside attributes we were born with, what CAN we do to better understand one another?

ose_n_me listed her credentials in an effort (it seemed to me) to have her opinions validated. This was seen as obnoxious (possibly) and not really valuable.

There may be some inside scoop I can provide that you may or may not be aware of (this is addressed to unononehigher and besangin) the choice we make to marry a black man and have mixed children can and does cause severe ostracism by our own families and friends. Whatever they may be thinking and saying about you, they are thinking and saying worse about us. No we can never be black women. But we have invested our entire lives into these relationships and willingly taken on hatred for the sake of loving our spouses and children (which is worth a million times more suffering!) I hate that the world is the way it is but I certainly didn't run from it when I chose my husband and clearly neither did ose_n_me. These are our families.

Someone said something regarding having mixed children, if the child appears to be more African than European, she will never understand what that child is living through. Sure that's true. You can't actually LIVE another person's life. It was mentioned that she will feel compassion and heartbreak for that child though. That is so true, doesn't that amount to anything? I don't know any mother who can witness her child's suffering and not suffer double. Although ose_n_me is not African American, her credentials to me speak volumes. She genuinely cares. She is invested in this with everything she is.

What do you want us to do? I'm not saying this in an angry way. It's a serious question. What do you want us to do to better understand you? How can we gain a better understanding of one another?

I realize I'm not going to change the ladies at work or anyone in the world. God does the changing not me. I don't want to fill my heart with resentment over things I don't really understand. If I knew where they were coming from I could have more compassion and empathy. That is my goal. It seems to me that it is the goal of many of us here. We're all trying to learn from one another. But it also seems that when an attempt is made it is shot down with the dismissal of, you will never understand because you don't live it. We can't live it. Can we come up with a better solution? Maybe there are issues in your own minds or the minds of your friends and family about us that we can help alleviate or at least shed some light on the "why those crazy white chicks do what they do". Racism comes from both sides and both need to gain a deeper insight.

I am writing this fast with the TV blaring in the background (which is giving me a painful headache) and I know i'm not thinking things through totally but I accept that I'm going to be ripped a new butthole over this. Please be patient and kind. I truly value your opinions and criticisms.

Merry Christmas to you all! I hope you all find joy and peace in your lives during this time of remembering the King of all who entered the world for us all. I hope for us all to remember the mother that gave birth to the Son, as mothers, wives and women we are so closely united to her sufferings and joys on that day!

Divine Mercy,
I must say honestly, that I respect you for having the desire to seek clarity. This subject has been debated, discussed, disheveled, dismissed and ressurected so many times over the years. Although we have progressed some as a society, we have yet to come very far. But I do believe that the only way change is gonna come is through mature approaches such as yours.

I am a black woman.

I commend you for taking this heart-felt approach to seeking your answers. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with your asking these questions. I pray that your work atmosphere becomes more comfortable over time.

As the saying goes: "If you can't change the people around you - Change the people around you."

Divine Mercy from an older black woman to a younger white woman the only racist I see on this forum is you. What does any of this bickering that you started have to do with immigration? I can't take any more. You sound insecure with your decisions as well.
I'm a strong black woman who knows what she wants and where she is going. I don't need VJ's approval for my life choices. You made a decison not only to marry a black man but to have his child.......to late to start second guessing now!

And another thing, just because you married a black man does not mean you love all black people.....please! The fact that you started all this mess then stood back while black folk ripped each other to shrewds lets me know that your husband is in for a bumpy ride, since Nigerians tend to be very close once they get to America you will have plenty of opportunities to express your black & white opinions to them.

Hello Everyone

This whole thread seems to be a complete mess...everyone is misinterupting everyones quotes and statements. I can understand the differences but there is no need for attacks or criticism. We all came from one creator and we all breath the same air and have the same flesh and blood.

Divine Mercy, you are a beautiful person and I know that you have a very loving heart. Personally, there are going to be some people (from different walks of life) that have issues or bitterness in their hearts and you just have to understand that and move on...just be you and maybe one day they will overcome whatever is bothering them and will be more friendly towards you...if not all you can do is pray for them.

I have encountered people (various races) like this before, but a Korean lady once told me that I should not let everything I hear go to my heart...sometimes I just need to let it go in one ear and out of the other. That was some valuable advice that I needed to hear at the time.

Many blessings to all and have a beautiful day and a very prosperous New Years.